What would happen?

[Mafiabob]

my opinion Ronnie, similarly to yours, I hope you'll notice some consistency. I won't criticise you for mentioning your opinions because I remember you posting them all at the time, and backing them up when people disagreed.

On to the subject matter. I personally have concerns, and one of them, similarly to my opinion of Paul Jewell's tenure, is you can do too much too soon. Jewell bought 8 in January, then 13 in summer and never found his feet. Whilst we have bought some players we already had in on loan, to bring in what equated to two-thirds of a team was over the top in my opinion.

At the moment, I have a cynical head on, thanks to the pursuit and purchase of Jason Shackell, which feels more of a fan purchase than a dilligently scouted one, and that then is adding further cynicism in my mind.

Have Derby tried to buy a feelgood factor? Are they papering over the cracks of somethiing? Here we are discussing signing a replacement for Hughes, yet he had bouts out in the last two seasons and we won most games. 

At some point we will judge Clement, and I will do so consistently. I have not seen anything myself yet to convince me either way, as I've seen one game. I do however know this much, he does need to learn, and learn quickly. You cannot succeed without pace, either in the movement or in the ball, or better still pace in both movement and ball. 

I admit to being disappointed on Wednesday, but I realise people go over the top. The only reason people think Pompey were better than us is that they were the massive underdog. In reality, they didn't play better than us. They had luck. On the flip side, I don't remember us being convincing in the League cup in August. Even in play off winning season, under Billy, I'm pretty sure someone like Blackpool beat us on penalties!

As for who is to blame, well, we will never truly know who identified Clement as the man to take the reins. I know one thing though, I would definitely freeze player recruitment and allow him chance to coach these players to success.

I would probably compare if I have to at this very early stage... To when Arthur Cox was in charge and Lionel Pickering came in and splashed the cash.... Took ages for us to gel from what I can remember... Short, Marco, Johnson, Kitson, Pembridge etc.... Big signings for the time.... 

 

Will take time. 

[RamNut]

I would probably compare if I have to at this very early stage... To when Arthur Cox was in charge and Lionel Pickering came in and splashed the cash.... Took ages for us to gel from what I can remember... Short, Marco, Johnson, Kitson, Pembridge etc.... Big signings for the time.... 

I  can't remember a time when splashing the cash has ever built a good team for us.

(Most good teams were built on a budget)

Even harder for a brand new manager to start rebuilding a team he has never met.

[Mafiabob]

I  can't remember a time when splashing the cash has ever built a good team for us.

(Most good teams were built on a budget)

Even harder for a brand new manager to start rebuilding a team he has never met.

Just think also we are not used to splashing millions... Agree with your post

[Cisse]

In my opinion no team should expect a promotion as a sure thing this season. There are so many strong sides that can go up. A rookie manager is always a big risk. If we don't go up and I believe we won't we just need to keep going.

At this point I find it useless to ponder what is the future of Clement. He needs time to show what he can do.

It wasn't so long ago we were still worried about relegation to League One.

 

 

[BondJovi]

Unless we face relegation, or something of a disaster, Clement will be given two seasons at least. I seem to recall Rush stating that they didn't want an Allardyce type manager, they wanted someone who would grow with the club. We all talk about Clement having a great team to work with, but most of this team haven't been playing well together since February! I think this is a big task for him, a job with plenty of expectation, the kind of job where two competitive games in, he is being questioned!

If we start getting on his back early on, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Got to support him.

[ronnieronalde]

Unless we face relegation, or something of a disaster, Clement will be given two seasons at least. I seem to recall Rush stating that they didn't want an Allardyce type manager, they wanted someone who would grow with the club. We all talk about Clement having a great team to work with, but most of this team haven't been playing well together since February! I think this is a big task for him, a job with plenty of expectation, the kind of job where two competitive games in, he is being questioned!

If we start getting on his back early on, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Got to support him.

I'd like to make my own views clear again, just in case it appears I'm on Clements back.

Not at all, not even remotely. I think irrespective of how he does, he's got to hang around, he's got to be given time, the last thing Derby need is to go back to the conveyor belt days of changing manager every 11 months or so.

My question was more aimed at the leaders of the club, I think they've spent a lot of money, signed a lot of players and overseen an overhaul of the squad that didn't need to be made. Again the overall point is that there's as near as damn it 25m gone on fees and wages over two seasons and yet there are few signs that the playing staff side of things has improved.

An upgrade on coaching, recruitment and relationships. That was their buzzword and reason for changing. 

The coaching, fat lot of good that did, when the **** hit the fan we needed a manager not a coach. 

Again now there's an extremely talented coach in place but no-one has any idea of his managerial ability, probably not even Paul himself.

Recruitment - hmmm, in my mind there haven't been many successful transfers other than Ince, Wisdom and Bent (for his goals) and they were all loan signings. After nearly two full seasons, where is the permanent signing who's gone on to be a success? 

Relationships? I'll ask again where we got Bueno, Ayala, Carroll and Keane from if not 4 of the biggest clubs in Europe. Have we really got stronger/better relationships or was it just the consequence of us playing good football and being in and around the top 6?

Someone other than the manager would surely have to take responsibility for that "smoke and mirrors" improvement if it's another season outside the play offs.

The CEO of the year would have a lot to answer for in my opinion, he rode the crest of a wave on the back of someone else's squad and someone else's team building. Now the test is really on. 

I'm happy to debate that by the way. I understand it could be a tad controversial.

 

[BondJovi]

I'd like to make my own views clear again, just in case it appears I'm on Clements back.

Not at all, not even remotely. I think irrespective of how he does, he's got to hang around, he's got to be given time, the last thing Derby need is to go back to the conveyor belt days of changing manager every 11 months or so.

My question was more aimed at the leaders of the club, I think they've spent a lot of money, signed a lot of players and overseen an overhaul of the squad that didn't need to be made. Again the overall point is that there's as near as damn it 25m gone on fees and wages over two seasons and yet there are few signs that the playing staff side of things has improved.

An upgrade on coaching, recruitment and relationships. That was their buzzword and reason for changing. 

The coaching, fat lot of good that did, when the **** hit the fan we needed a manager not a coach. 

Again now there's an extremely talented coach in place but no-one has any idea of his managerial ability, probably not even Paul himself.

Recruitment - hmmm, in my mind there haven't been many successful transfers other than Ince, Wisdom and Bent (for his goals) and they were all loan signings. After nearly two full seasons, where is the permanent signing who's gone on to be a success? 

Relationships? I'll ask again where we got Bueno, Ayala, Carroll and Keane from if not 4 of the biggest clubs in Europe. Have we really got stronger/better relationships or was it just the consequence of us playing good football and being in and around the top 6?

Someone other than the manager would surely have to take responsibility for that "smoke and mirrors" improvement if it's another season outside the play offs.

The CEO of the year would have a lot to answer for in my opinion, he rode the crest of a wave on the back of someone else's squad and someone else's team building. Now the test is really on. 

I'm happy to debate that by the way. I understand it could be a tad controversial.

 

Never read it is as you being on Clement's back! I know what it is you question.

Recruitment - Can't really judge any of the signings this season, but I do feel as a squad we are far stronger. Maybe the under 21s is where we are seeing the benefits? What we do have now is a chairman/CEO who are willing to go that extra step to ensure we get who we want. Whether that player turns out any good or not, it is reassuring to know we can get our targets. More importantly would be we haven't had to sell anyone  we didn't want to.

Relationships - Think that is incredibly difficult to judge!

Whatever we may think or question, I think the biggest factor, the greatest achievement our CEO can claim, is getting the feel good factor back to this club. I just don't feel we will be allowed to go stale whilst our current leadership group is here. So I can sit back and enjoy and not worry. I don't think Rush came in riding the crest of a wave of someone else's work, there was no wave to be rode upon! There could though come a point where a continued failure to get promotion will raise questions of the leadership and no one is immune no matter how well they have done in the past.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I agree with the view we need more in midfield. If for instance we go 4- 3 -3 tomorrow with Thorne Dawkins & Hendrick I won't be filled with confidence. George is a class above but Jeff still doesn't impose himself on the game and Dawkins despite his control still has a bit to prove. Not withstanding that however who is the cover? Who do we bring on if one or two in midfield are struggling? Not strong at all imo.

[Bris Vegas]

Depends on the circumstances:

But we had everything in place this summer to get promoted this season. We have a very good group of players who fit a 4-3-3 formation perfectly, with each player benefiting from the team.

Assuming Ince was always going to sign, we had:

Grant, Christie, Keogh, Buxton, Forsyth, Thorne, Hughes, Bryson, Russell, Ince, Martin as arguably our best XI. We also had Dawkins, Shotton, Hendrick as backups who also fit a role easily enough.

So on that, our recruitment team and whoever is invovled in that needed to do just a few simple things. Identify a manager and players who can come in and improve that team above.

Let's not beat around the bush here. That team above was for large parts of last season in the automatic promotion places and that's despite McClaren arguably hindering them by playing a more controlled style of play.

So Clement came in. With his experience at RM and Carlo Ancelotti favouring a 4-3-3 during their best season in years (2013/14), I assumed he would look at our squad, identify what we have and improve it.

So in comes Carson (GK), Baird (RB and DM), Shackell (CB), Alex Pearce (CB) and Ince (RW). Players who all fitted the system, players who made our 4-3-3 first-team XI better.

Now, Weimann and Bent both sign. (Why???) - Ok perhaps Weimann can play at LW, but Bent just doesn't fit the system. He can't play CF on his own, he just can't! 

First rule of recruitment. Buy players who fit your system, regardless of whether they appear good players / signings. If they don't fit your system, don't buy them! Hull City play a flat 4-4-2, hence why Ince was never favoured there.

It's the same principle, though in Hull's case they got incredibly lucky we took Ince on loan and they ultimately made a profit on him. We're stuck with Bent, a player who just doesn't fit.

Ok, so after it was clearly evident that the 4-3-3 works and we have the players for it, why did Clement change it? To shoehorn Weimann and Bent in the side? Poor idea, as now our better players are hindered in such a system.

Also, why haven't we brought in a Martin backup. This was the most logical decision, because even if we got back to 4-3-3 as of tomorrow, if Martin gets injured we're f##ked again like last season.

Recruitment team - What are you playing at? Seriously, how is something so obvious going over your head? Oh, because the diamond is our alternative.... It won't work, I'm categorically telling you that now, we don't have the players for it.

So who is at fault? Whoever decided to change it. Whoever decided to create this mythical 'Plan B'. You don't need a Plan B. Just improve Plan A, it's simple, especially after getting us so close.

Also, are we still lacking a left winger? I'd say so, another fault of recruitment team up until now. If Thorne gets injured, is Baird really the best DM alternative? Erm, probably not!

I'm sorry to come across so negatively, but I think we've f##cked up big time this summer and our only hope of getting promoted is going back to 4-3-3 and praying Martin/Thorne don't get injured and Weimann/Russell can do a job at LW.

Also, I'm confident of a midfield trio of Thorne, Dawkins and Hendrick. I think it has great balance and given a shot it has all the potential to be good enough for where we want to go in the absence of Hughes/Bryson.

[DRBee]

MacClaren had instant success and a large part of that was he was positive, wanted attacking football and prepared to take risks. This strategy had its own risks and anyone who saw our vulnerability at St Andrews in the 2013/14 season will have seen the consequences. MacClarens start last season was a stuttering one but it then improved. Clement has to be given time and a chorus of 'gone by Christmas' ain't going to help.

 

However the statement justifying his appointment ( in summary  - " we want someone who will work and grow with us, not necessarily someone of great experience ") is worrying. We need a chief coach who will argue and mostly get his way with the people handing out the candy.

[Curtains]

Depends on the circumstances:

But we had everything in place this summer to get promoted this season. We have a very good group of players who fit a 4-3-3 formation perfectly, with each player benefiting from the team.

Assuming Ince was always going to sign, we had:

Grant, Christie, Keogh, Buxton, Forsyth, Thorne, Hughes, Bryson, Russell, Ince, Martin as arguably our best XI. We also had Dawkins, Shotton, Hendrick as backups who also fit a role easily enough.

So on that, our recruitment team and whoever is invovled in that needed to do just a few simple things. Identify a manager and players who can come in and improve that team above.

Let's not beat around the bush here. That team above was for large parts of last season in the automatic promotion places and that's despite McClaren arguably hindering them by playing a more controlled style of play.

So Clement came in. With his experience at RM and Carlo Ancelotti favouring a 4-3-3 during their best season in years (2013/14), I assumed he would look at our squad, identify what we have and improve it.

So in comes Carson (GK), Baird (RB and DM), Shackell (CB), Alex Pearce (CB) and Ince (RW). Players who all fitted the system, players who made our 4-3-3 first-team XI better.

Now, Weimann and Bent both sign. (Why???) - Ok perhaps Weimann can play at LW, but Bent just doesn't fit the system. He can't play CF on his own, he just can't! 

First rule of recruitment. Buy players who fit your system, regardless of whether they appear good players / signings. If they don't fit your system, don't buy them! Hull City play a flat 4-4-2, hence why Ince was never favoured there.

It's the same principle, though in Hull's case they got incredibly lucky we took Ince on loan and they ultimately made a profit on him. We're stuck with Bent, a player who just doesn't fit.

Ok, so after it was clearly evident that the 4-3-3 works and we have the players for it, why did Clement change it? To shoehorn Weimann and Bent in the side? Poor idea, as now our better players are hindered in such a system.

Also, why haven't we brought in a Martin backup. This was the most logical decision, because even if we got back to 4-3-3 as of tomorrow, if Martin gets injured we're f##ked again like last season.

Recruitment team - What are you playing at? Seriously, how is something so obvious going over your head? Oh, because the diamond is our alternative.... It won't work, I'm categorically telling you that now, we don't have the players for it.

So who is at fault? Whoever decided to change it. Whoever decided to create this mythical 'Plan B'. You don't need a Plan B. Just improve Plan A, it's simple, especially after getting us so close.

Also, are we still lacking a left winger? I'd say so, another fault of recruitment team up until now. If Thorne gets injured, is Baird really the best DM alternative? Erm, probably not!

I'm sorry to come across so negatively, but I think we've f##cked up big time this summer and our only hope of getting promoted is going back to 4-3-3 and praying Martin/Thorne don't get injured and Weimann/Russell can do a job at LW.

Also, I'm confident of a midfield trio of Thorne, Dawkins and Hendrick. I think it has great balance and given a shot it has all the potential to be good enough for where we want to go in the absence of Hughes/Bryson.

The recruitments not finished yet we need another goalscorer and attacking creative midfielder  .

Give it time Bris and you can't write Bent off just yet. 

Clement will need time. 

[mwram1973]

did we change tactics/formation against portsmouth once we went behind?

We were practicing different formations pre season so we would have a plan A,B,C so to say.

Cannot remember if we switched it, if not why?.

[mozza]

I prefer my 1 liners tbh, if I can even be bothered to post 

i gave up after the first paragraph too , can you send me the minutes ?

[Ram a lamb a ding dong]

We have more pain to come before it all clicks together.

agree one zillion percent. Got big doubts over today. If Martin and Incey dont turn up again we'll be in trouble. Too much pressure on gorgeous george to drive the team on.

[Ram a lamb a ding dong]

Also **** Plans B, C, D & E. concentrate on a Plan A which is a 4-3-3

[rynny]

i gave up after the first paragraph too , can you send me the minutes ?

Cheeky git

 

I bored myself writing it 

[rynny]

Depends on the circumstances:

But we had everything in place this summer to get promoted this season. We have a very good group of players who fit a 4-3-3 formation perfectly, with each player benefiting from the team.

Assuming Ince was always going to sign, we had:

Grant, Christie, Keogh, Buxton, Forsyth, Thorne, Hughes, Bryson, Russell, Ince, Martin as arguably our best XI. We also had Dawkins, Shotton, Hendrick as backups who also fit a role easily enough.

So on that, our recruitment team and whoever is invovled in that needed to do just a few simple things. Identify a manager and players who can come in and improve that team above.

Let's not beat around the bush here. That team above was for large parts of last season in the automatic promotion places and that's despite McClaren arguably hindering them by playing a more controlled style of play.

So Clement came in. With his experience at RM and Carlo Ancelotti favouring a 4-3-3 during their best season in years (2013/14), I assumed he would look at our squad, identify what we have and improve it.

So in comes Carson (GK), Baird (RB and DM), Shackell (CB), Alex Pearce (CB) and Ince (RW). Players who all fitted the system, players who made our 4-3-3 first-team XI better.

Now, Weimann and Bent both sign. (Why???) - Ok perhaps Weimann can play at LW, but Bent just doesn't fit the system. He can't play CF on his own, he just can't! 

First rule of recruitment. Buy players who fit your system, regardless of whether they appear good players / signings. If they don't fit your system, don't buy them! Hull City play a flat 4-4-2, hence why Ince was never favoured there.

It's the same principle, though in Hull's case they got incredibly lucky we took Ince on loan and they ultimately made a profit on him. We're stuck with Bent, a player who just doesn't fit.

Ok, so after it was clearly evident that the 4-3-3 works and we have the players for it, why did Clement change it? To shoehorn Weimann and Bent in the side? Poor idea, as now our better players are hindered in such a system.

Also, why haven't we brought in a Martin backup. This was the most logical decision, because even if we got back to 4-3-3 as of tomorrow, if Martin gets injured we're f##ked again like last season.

Recruitment team - What are you playing at? Seriously, how is something so obvious going over your head? Oh, because the diamond is our alternative.... It won't work, I'm categorically telling you that now, we don't have the players for it.

So who is at fault? Whoever decided to change it. Whoever decided to create this mythical 'Plan B'. You don't need a Plan B. Just improve Plan A, it's simple, especially after getting us so close.

Also, are we still lacking a left winger? I'd say so, another fault of recruitment team up until now. If Thorne gets injured, is Baird really the best DM alternative? Erm, probably not!

I'm sorry to come across so negatively, but I think we've f##cked up big time this summer and our only hope of getting promoted is going back to 4-3-3 and praying Martin/Thorne don't get injured and Weimann/Russell can do a job at LW.

Also, I'm confident of a midfield trio of Thorne, Dawkins and Hendrick. I think it has great balance and given a shot it has all the potential to be good enough for where we want to go in the absence of Hughes/Bryson.

I agree with most of this, Bris, and I know the Bent argument has done it's rounds, and where I agree he should not start, to have him on the bench is a plus for me, games where we need a goal and we are going gung ho, there isn't many better strikers, that are in our price range, to chuck on the pitch and say get us a goal.

Look at the Blackburn game at home, we needed a goal and were struggling to convert, Bent comes on and scores 2. I am not saying that will happen every time but I think it will happen more often than not.

[G STAR RAM]

I want to be a bit careful about how I post this, I've genuinely made a lot of good friends here and I don't want anyone to see this as antagonistical, just my views as a very interested "part" outsider. it's a response to the is Paul Clement the right man thread.

I tried to dig out the Sam Rush and the 10m question thread I started but it looks to have disappeared. I was going to resurrect the thread where I said I fancied Steve McClaren to bottle it and to walk out before the end of his contract but I thought that might wind you all up as well.

I could have brought up the thread where I said the biggest test was how Steve managed to integrate his signings into the squad and how he handled leaving out key players.. but I saw no sense.

All of that is an intro to what I said about Clements appointment.

If it doesn't work this time, who would you hold responsible?

The main investor Mel, not a chance and rightly so, it his cash, he's the main man.

Or The CEO of the Year who was brought in to drive Derby forward, yet two seasons and a bag load of cash later we're still here?

Or the rookie manager who before he got hired has never picked a first team side in his life?

Or no-one?

It took huge balls from your CEO and a lot of faith from your major investors, who since sanctioning Sam spending approximately 10m on his last manager and have him fail, has now gone on to sanction another 15m or so in spending and Sam's given that cash to a man who hadn't managed a game in his life. It WAS AND IS AN ASTRONIMICAL RISK.

I'm not sure if Paul ever had to pick a side on his own, I'm not sure if he ever had to set them up tactically on his own, I'm not sure he ever had to leave a player out or if he ever had to pick them up after a defeat.

So far from what I've seen I think PC is struggling to instill his own style of play, it all seems a little bit lethargic. a bit disjointed and there doesn't seem to be any fizz about us. You can tell me I've jumped in woefully early but I've got real concerns that the positive atmosphere that had taken so long to build up just isn't there anymore.

Now don't get me wrong, I think Clement is an intelligent man, with a fantastic pedigree and I think he's got enough talent and nouse to work things out for himself, but then again I thought the same thing about David Weir at Everton who was this bright young coach so highly regarded by everyone in the game. 15 games and one win later he was out on his arse, looking a shadow of the bright confident lad who'd taken the reigns,  with the players and the board having totally lost faith in his ideas and his mantra and the fans hounding him out, showing no sympathy for the fact it was his first number one role and he just needed time.

My point? Sheffield United wasn't the right club to take your first role, Sheffield United can't afford to give a rookie novice manager the time to learn his trade, the time to iron out his mistakes or to get across his point, the club is too big for that and the fans too restless.

I personally think Derby County are on another level to Sheffield United and I've got real concerns that Clement has taken on a massive role when he should still be learning his trade, if he doesn't start getting wins soon, he won't get the time he needs to get things to gel...not from the fans, not from the media and regrettably not even from the players, who shouldn't have so much influence but the reality is they do... they lost trust in McClaren and his bullshit last season and look what happened.

Going out of the league cup so early can't have been ideal and whatever anyone says about second string, that second string had bags of talent and a lot of $$$ expensive players. It HAD to be good enough to beat Pompey.

In my eyes, however Paul Clement does this season, the board HAVE TO BACK HIM and so far they have, incredibly, with his contract length and wage, with his transfer kitty and with the budget increase they've given him which seemingly takes us back to the days of paying big wages and giving out long contracts..

So overall my point is this, if Derby don't go up this season, surely they can't sack the novice manager they appointed, they can't "sack" the main investors. Can and will they hold anyone responsible or will they just all line up and have another crack at it with another 15-20m in cash going down the drain?

 

 

 

Hi Ronnie,

All very good points and one that I feel will be being asked later on in the season.

Do you think Clement was Rush's choice or Morris'? I have heard it said that it was Morris that wanted rid of McClaren and Clement was his man, whether that is true or not I certainly do not know.

My personal feeling on the matter, like Mostyn, is that too many drastic changes have been made and too quickly. I personally feel that the feelgood factor has gone and we are now trying to use money to buy our way out of the league.

Only time will tell on what will happen but I don't see anyone else's neck on the line other than Rush.

 

[FrostedRam]

It would surely be the players that would be held responsible. It is broadly the same squad for the last three years, give or take one or two. 

You would have to doubt the players ability if they failed to get up for a third time in a row. 

Youbeould have tried different coaches, structures etc so the only thing left is the players weren't good enough. 

But really hoping this is the season. I've got a feeling the team won't be in a groove until October, with is just bobbing along in mid table. The ideas will suddenly kick in and we will mount a push that no one can keep pace with.

We've done the sitting at the top all season to fail in the last month,at be this year we can be the team that comes from nowhere

 

[richinspain]

Also **** Plans B, C, D & E. concentrate on a Plan A which is a 4-3-3

got to say this is the thing that most worried me in PC's early interviews. I totally agree that we do need plan B and C, and possibly even C, but plan A should be plan A. Use it always players are available to play it. Bent etc give us the option to change when plan A isn't working or players aren't available. But start with plan A, particularly in the league. I can't see any team in this division that would warrant not playing our plan A from the start. If we draw a big team in the cup then you can think about it, but we should always make other teams worry about us. They should set up to stop our game, and if they succeed then we have got the squad to change the system. Most teams won't have the resources to change during a game to counter our plans B, C or D! Play to your strengths, always, especially if you are supposedly one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the league. Having said all this, 2 away games into a new season is damned early to be judging if PC is good enough!