What would happen?

[ronnieronalde]

I want to be a bit careful about how I post this, I've genuinely made a lot of good friends here and I don't want anyone to see this as antagonistical, just my views as a very interested "part" outsider. it's a response to the is Paul Clement the right man thread.

I tried to dig out the Sam Rush and the 10m question thread I started but it looks to have disappeared. I was going to resurrect the thread where I said I fancied Steve McClaren to bottle it and to walk out before the end of his contract but I thought that might wind you all up as well.

I could have brought up the thread where I said the biggest test was how Steve managed to integrate his signings into the squad and how he handled leaving out key players.. but I saw no sense.

All of that is an intro to what I said about Clements appointment.

If it doesn't work this time, who would you hold responsible?

The main investor Mel, not a chance and rightly so, it his cash, he's the main man.

Or The CEO of the Year who was brought in to drive Derby forward, yet two seasons and a bag load of cash later we're still here?

Or the rookie manager who before he got hired has never picked a first team side in his life?

Or no-one?

It took huge balls from your CEO and a lot of faith from your major investors, who since sanctioning Sam spending approximately 10m on his last manager and have him fail, has now gone on to sanction another 15m or so in spending and Sam's given that cash to a man who hadn't managed a game in his life. It WAS AND IS AN ASTRONIMICAL RISK.

I'm not sure if Paul ever had to pick a side on his own, I'm not sure if he ever had to set them up tactically on his own, I'm not sure he ever had to leave a player out or if he ever had to pick them up after a defeat.

So far from what I've seen I think PC is struggling to instill his own style of play, it all seems a little bit lethargic. a bit disjointed and there doesn't seem to be any fizz about us. You can tell me I've jumped in woefully early but I've got real concerns that the positive atmosphere that had taken so long to build up just isn't there anymore.

Now don't get me wrong, I think Clement is an intelligent man, with a fantastic pedigree and I think he's got enough talent and nouse to work things out for himself, but then again I thought the same thing about David Weir at Everton who was this bright young coach so highly regarded by everyone in the game. 15 games and one win later he was out on his arse, looking a shadow of the bright confident lad who'd taken the reigns,  with the players and the board having totally lost faith in his ideas and his mantra and the fans hounding him out, showing no sympathy for the fact it was his first number one role and he just needed time.

My point? Sheffield United wasn't the right club to take your first role, Sheffield United can't afford to give a rookie novice manager the time to learn his trade, the time to iron out his mistakes or to get across his point, the club is too big for that and the fans too restless.

I personally think Derby County are on another level to Sheffield United and I've got real concerns that Clement has taken on a massive role when he should still be learning his trade, if he doesn't start getting wins soon, he won't get the time he needs to get things to gel...not from the fans, not from the media and regrettably not even from the players, who shouldn't have so much influence but the reality is they do... they lost trust in McClaren and his bullshit last season and look what happened.

Going out of the league cup so early can't have been ideal and whatever anyone says about second string, that second string had bags of talent and a lot of $$$ expensive players. It HAD to be good enough to beat Pompey.

In my eyes, however Paul Clement does this season, the board HAVE TO BACK HIM and so far they have, incredibly, with his contract length and wage, with his transfer kitty and with the budget increase they've given him which seemingly takes us back to the days of paying big wages and giving out long contracts..

So overall my point is this, if Derby don't go up this season, surely they can't sack the novice manager they appointed, they can't "sack" the main investors. Can and will they hold anyone responsible or will they just all line up and have another crack at it with another 15-20m in cash going down the drain?

 

 

 

[eddie]

Not antagonistic at all, and I'm sure that just about every point you have made and every question raised is perfectly valid. I'm fairly sure that the investors, CEO and any other parties to the appointment of Paul Clement would have conducted some sort of risk assessment - after all, major investment in both playing and non-playing staff has been made.

I just couldn't guess what their response would be if the mammaries went skyward - but I'm pretty sure that the only way that Clement would be in with any chance of being out the door this season would be if relegation loomed.

[Tombo]

If this goes wrong, yes, Sam Rush is responsible as the CEO with him having twice got the wrong man for the job.

 

But it's not gonna go wrong. Paul Clement's Barmy Army.

[TroyDyer]

I'm just happy that whatever happens, the season ain't over by Christmas. 

We took 1100 to pompey. Just 2000 more than we had at HOME when we lost to ssausagehorpe under NC. 

There is a buzz back in the city. Whatever happens, it's nice to see Derby County being relevant in the world of football again. 

[rynny]

@ronnieronalde I'm not too sure where you get your figures from, seem on the high side to me? 

Who is to blame if we don't get promoted, everyone who takes a wage at the club, it cannot be down to 1 person, the percentages will be different as to who is at fault, and that can only be done at the end of the season, IF we don't get promoted. And that is something that I don't want to think about after 1 league game and certainly hope the players, management, board etc are not thinking about it.

I don't see hiring Clement and the spending as being an astronomical risk, a risk yes, but you are over doing it. Every manager/head coach brought in is a risk, as is every signing. He may not have had a final say on a starting 11 before here, but he certainly would have had a helping hand with everyone whilst assistant manager, and there will have been times where he has said to Carlo "What about this?" and Carlo agreeing to it. He will have had to speak to players about not starting or losing or whatever as he was part of the management team, that is not the sole responsibility of the manager/head coach. 

As for Sam Rush, for the job I can see that he is doing, he is doing very well, the players that we are wanting to sign are being signed, no dramas like when Glick was in charge and missing out on players, like with Sammon. He has changed the management, probably at the right time with both, it nearly paid off the first season with Steve, and last season was going well until the injuries and lack of change in formation etc effected us. We are not going to be hit with an embargo due to breaking FFP, he isn't on social media making the club look amateurish. Bills are paid on time. I can't see what the problem is?

You open saying you want to be careful as to what you say, and you don't want to be antagonistic but then mention a few threads as a "I told you so" kinda opening, and can cause issues with posters like those that have arose. You could have just started without mentioning them.

 

 

I can't even remember the last time I wrote so much in 1 post 

[Don't Panic]

Rynny that's a lot of writing - hope that's ur being serious otherwise I need a bigger screen 

[rynny]

Rynny that's a lot of writing - hope that's ur being serious otherwise I need a bigger screen 

I prefer my 1 liners tbh, if I can even be bothered to post 

[SaintRam]

As serious responses have eluded to and I've tried to tell the wrist-slashers in other threads, Paul Clement won't be sacked if we fail to get promoted this year. He would be sacked if we failed to get promoted next year, as getting into the premiership by the end of next year is almost certainly what the risk assessments would have worked with.

You never do anything on the basis of everything going well in one year in football, almost always will backfire.

Now, if by the end of next year we don't get promoted, then with the finances pumped in (unless Sponsorship/Tv Deals for the Champ rocket up in that space of time, which they won't) then we may be looking at a re-organisation to maintain below FFP. 

In 3 years time if we're not complaining about not winning our first game in the Premier League, something has gone wrong. Both in football terms and business terms.

[BOB BIGGS]

I'm not sure whether I'm a "half decent" person or not but there's a lot to take in at the moment...

I don't think any of us is anything but confused about our fall from grace from the turn of the year. I can't understand what went so wrong last season and am hoping that these first few games are not indicative of what will unfold as the season goes.

Like you Ronnie, I'm all for giving PC  a good chance to sort it out. For whatever reasons, Steve and his Team lost the plot during those last 15 games. I hope to see the introduction of more pace and increased tempo in the next few games. A win or two will lead to growing confidence and perhaps freedom to express ourselves again.

As for who will get the chop if it all goes wrong...I suspect an ever growing list would have formed, particularly on the recruitment side. Let's all hope it doesn't come to that.

[ronnieronalde]

 

I mentioned those threads not to try to wind people up but to establish that I've been fairly accurate with how I've judged the situation overall.

Kind of establishing credibility for the rest of my point, which at this stage of a season, even I know is too much judgement and ridiculously too soon, but then again I was told that when I posted the Mac will lose the plot thread.

It's just a momentum thing for me and I see momentum going in the wrong direction.

I don't think my figures are high at all.

10m - includes Thorne, Shotton, Bent, Best, Albentosa, Ibe, Lingaard, Christie, Warnock, Bryson's new deal et al.

15m - includes Ince, Weimann, Bent, Shackell plus any more incomings to cover Hughesy and the increase in salaries.

I may be a million or two either side of the spot on figure.

[rynny]

I mentioned those threads not to try to wind people up but to establish that I've been fairly accurate with how I've judged the situation overall.

Kind of establishing credibility for the rest of my point, which at this stage of a season, even I know is too much judgement and ridiculously too soon, but then again I was told that when I posted the Mac will lose the plot thread.

It's just a momentum thing for me and I see momentum going in the wrong direction.

I don't think my figures are high at all.

10m - includes Thorne, Shotton, Bent, Best, Albentosa, Ibe, Lingaard, Christie, Warnock, Bryson's new deal et al.

15m - includes Ince, Weimann, Bent, Shackell plus any more incomings to cover Hughesy and the increase in salaries.

I may be a million or two either side of the spot on figure.

It feels like an unnecessary "I told you so", you could have responded quoting those threads.

If your figures include wages then maybe, but you have to take into account the outgoing wages as well, also any deals we haven't completed, hmmm, ok.

[deano180]

Anything better than Col U away under Brown is a bonus  

[RamNut]

We have taken a gamble.

good coaches don't necessarily make good managers. 

Colin addison was a highly respected coach at west brom but Roy Mac says his team talks bored everyone to death.

charlie George said colin murphy was ok coaching the reserves but he wasn't accepted by the senior pros. He didn't have the necessary experience and authority.

similarly he observes that don howe was a great coach but not a great manager.

In the end its all about results.

if we win he's great. If we don't then his every move will be picked apart.

At the moment in order to win over the group, he is being tasked with coming up with a few tactical masterpieces and maybe the players don't yet believe in it. Whatever he does I think he needs to settle on a team and a formation and avoid endless tinkering, or rotating the squad to keep everyone happy.

Win the next two home games and it will be a case of crisis what crisis?

 

[Mafiabob]

I think they were right to sack Clough....

 

I thought they were hasty in getting rid of Mac...

 

Hope Clement does well as anyone who gets appointed by the club....

 

Like I've said many many times.... Mr Rush has got a big pair of nuts on him....

 

Sentimentally has gone out of football.... Unfortunately... Being average doesn't cut it no more....

 

 

[McRamFan]

We have more pain to come before it all clicks together.

[eddie]

We have more pain to come before it all clicks together.

No pain, no gain.

Alternatively, no pain, had enough beer.

[Mostyn6]

my opinion Ronnie, similarly to yours, I hope you'll notice some consistency. I won't criticise you for mentioning your opinions because I remember you posting them all at the time, and backing them up when people disagreed.

On to the subject matter. I personally have concerns, and one of them, similarly to my opinion of Paul Jewell's tenure, is you can do too much too soon. Jewell bought 8 in January, then 13 in summer and never found his feet. Whilst we have bought some players we already had in on loan, to bring in what equated to two-thirds of a team was over the top in my opinion.

At the moment, I have a cynical head on, thanks to the pursuit and purchase of Jason Shackell, which feels more of a fan purchase than a dilligently scouted one, and that then is adding further cynicism in my mind.

Have Derby tried to buy a feelgood factor? Are they papering over the cracks of somethiing? Here we are discussing signing a replacement for Hughes, yet he had bouts out in the last two seasons and we won most games. 

At some point we will judge Clement, and I will do so consistently. I have not seen anything myself yet to convince me either way, as I've seen one game. I do however know this much, he does need to learn, and learn quickly. You cannot succeed without pace, either in the movement or in the ball, or better still pace in both movement and ball. 

I admit to being disappointed on Wednesday, but I realise people go over the top. The only reason people think Pompey were better than us is that they were the massive underdog. In reality, they didn't play better than us. They had luck. On the flip side, I don't remember us being convincing in the League cup in August. Even in play off winning season, under Billy, I'm pretty sure someone like Blackpool beat us on penalties!

As for who is to blame, well, we will never truly know who identified Clement as the man to take the reins. I know one thing though, I would definitely freeze player recruitment and allow him chance to coach these players to success.

[Tombo]

my opinion Ronnie, similarly to yours, I hope you'll notice some consistency. I won't criticise you for mentioning your opinions because I remember you posting them all at the time, and backing them up when people disagreed.

On to the subject matter. I personally have concerns, and one of them, similarly to my opinion of Paul Jewell's tenure, is you can do too much too soon. Jewell bought 8 in January, then 13 in summer and never found his feet. Whilst we have bought some players we already had in on loan, to bring in what equated to two-thirds of a team was over the top in my opinion.

At the moment, I have a cynical head on, thanks to the pursuit and purchase of Jason Shackell, which feels more of a fan purchase than a dilligently scouted one, and that then is adding further cynicism in my mind.

Have Derby tried to buy a feelgood factor? Are they papering over the cracks of somethiing? Here we are discussing signing a replacement for Hughes, yet he had bouts out in the last two seasons and we won most games. 

At some point we will judge Clement, and I will do so consistently. I have not seen anything myself yet to convince me either way, as I've seen one game. I do however know this much, he does need to learn, and learn quickly. You cannot succeed without pace, either in the movement or in the ball, or better still pace in both movement and ball. 

I admit to being disappointed on Wednesday, but I realise people go over the top. The only reason people think Pompey were better than us is that they were the massive underdog. In reality, they didn't play better than us. They had luck. On the flip side, I don't remember us being convincing in the League cup in August. Even in play off winning season, under Billy, I'm pretty sure someone like Blackpool beat us on penalties!

As for who is to blame, well, we will never truly know who identified Clement as the man to take the reins. I know one thing though, I would definitely freeze player recruitment and allow him chance to coach these players to success.

I do understand this viewpoint, but you cant make your mind up so early. You've seen something that reminds you of the Jewell era and if you hold onto that you'll be seeing Jewell-esque elements all over the place. Even so, lightning never strikes twice and no two things are identical. It could have all the elements of the Jewell days, but be totally different in one aspect that makes all the difference.

For example, does anyone actually rate Jewell as a coach or man manager? Did he ever improve any player? Clement has had good reviews from top players who worked with him and they've gone on record to say that he does have coaching ability.

It might look like beef, smell like beef, feel like beef, but you can't be sure it's beef until a good taste has been had. You could put it in your mouth and be surprised to taste chicken. Appearances can be so deceptive.

You've said many times now that the transfer deals need to stop but I think we are still short in our squad. I think another midfielder is all we need. Then we can see Clement's coaching credentials. It's not fair to expect him to get by with what he has in midfield. Elsewhere, sure, fair play. Midfield is still short though in my opinion.

But I'm glad to see some people can put across their concerns and worries without resorting to spitting their dummy out and acting like a child who didn't get what he wanted for Christmas.

[RamNut]

It might look like beef, smell like beef, feel like beef, but you can't be sure it's beef until a good taste has been had. You could put it in your mouth and be surprised to taste chicken. Appearances can be so deceptive.

Theres no answer to that!

[Mostyn6]

I do understand this viewpoint, but you cant make your mind up so early. You've seen something that reminds you of the Jewell era and if you hold onto that you'll be seeing Jewell-esque elements all over the place. Even so, lightning never strikes twice and no two things are identical. It could have all the elements of the Jewell days, but be totally different in one aspect that makes all the difference.

For example, does anyone actually rate Jewell as a coach or man manager? Did he ever improve any player? Clement has had good reviews from top players who worked with him and they've gone on record to say that he does have coaching ability.

It might look like beef, smell like beef, feel like beef, but you can't be sure it's beef until a good taste has been had. You could put it in your mouth and be surprised to taste chicken. Appearances can be so deceptive.

You've said many times now that the transfer deals need to stop but I think we are still short in our squad. I think another midfielder is all we need. Then we can see Clement's coaching credentials. It's not fair to expect him to get by with what he has in midfield. Elsewhere, sure, fair play. Midfield is still short though in my opinion.

But I'm glad to see some people can put across their concerns and worries without resorting to spitting their dummy out and acting like a child who didn't get what he wanted for Christmas.

oh poo off!

Anyway, Jewell was by far and away the best person for the job at that time and was very highly rated. His stint at Derby actually ruined him, with a little help from the Daily Mirror. My comparison is not Jewell per se, more the overhaul of the team, when we were arguably one or two players away from being really good.

As Ronnie has suggested a few times, well, he's asked the question, can signings ruin a tightly-knit squad? Has the fraternal team-spirit created by Nigel been ruined by scattergun approach to signing players?