Boxing Thread

[Alph]

49 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Jake Paul could probably genuinely beat him. 

 

Would agree. The judges seem to have given him a few, don't agree with their assessment. Easy night work for Tyson in the end. 

I can't believe he says that Jake Paul isn't ready for a real boxer. 

Like Tommy Fury has some great ring craft or IQ. He does nothing that I can see that Jake Paul couldn't learn. 

Heck, I think you could go into a Boxercise class and train someone to Tommy Fury's level within the same time he's been "pro". 

Proper boxer my arse

[Andicis]

24 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I can't believe he says that Jake Paul isn't ready for a real boxer. 

Like Tommy Fury has some great ring craft or IQ. He does nothing that I can see that Jake Paul couldn't learn. 

Heck, I think you could go into a Boxercise class and train someone to Tommy Fury's level within the same time he's been "pro". 

Proper boxer my arse

Beaten a bunch of fighters that are probably worse than the likes of what Jake has fought, yet thinks he's brilliant. All muscles and no technique, opposite of Tyson.

[BaaLocks]

33 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Beaten a bunch of fighters that are probably worse than the likes of what Jake has fought, yet thinks he's brilliant. All muscles and no technique, opposite of Tyson.

I do hope history remembers the last three words of this. Defensively I don't think there has been a better heavyweight than Fury since Cassius Clay (and I say that on purpose). Offensively he might not bang like a young Mike Tyson but in his ability to execute the 'sweet science' I'm struggling to think of a heavyweight who has shown an ability to think his way through a fight like Fury, strangely possibly only Usyk, maybe Holyfield, come close. He was right what he said in his press conference, he's as good as there has been and good on him if he ends ups being only the second heavyweight champ to take an '0' into retirement.

Edited April 24, 2022 by BaaLocks

[Andicis]

19 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I do hope history remembers the last three words of this. Defensively I don't think there has been a better heavyweight than Fury since Cassius Clay (and I say that on purpose). Offensively he might not bang like a young Mike Tyson but in his ability to execute the 'sweet science' I'm struggling to think of a heavyweight who has shown an ability to think his way through a fight like Fury, strangely possibly only Usyk, maybe Holyfield, come close. He was right what he said in his press conference, he's as good as there has been and good on him if he ends ups being only the second heavyweight champ to take an '0' into retirement.

He make take an 0 into retirement, but realistically it'll be a great disappointment if he doesn't fight the number 2 or 3 fighters in Joshua or Usyk. His record on the whole is still rather disappointing. Too much filler. 

[Bris Vegas]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

He make take an 0 into retirement, but realistically it'll be a great disappointment if he doesn't fight the number 2 or 3 fighters in Joshua or Usyk. His record on the whole is still rather disappointing. Too much filler. 

I don’t think it’s a great division in all honesty. Wilder was just a huge puncher with no technique. Whyte is ok, but probably no better than say Povetkin of 5 years ago. Vlad was an old man when he fought Fury and AJ.

It would be a shame if Fury never fought AJ. He is the only decent one out there in his prime. Well, Usyk is next level, genuinely world class. Better than AJ. No way would Fury be able to knock him out, so he’d make it as ugly as possible to win and that’s why that fight doesn’t interest me that much. He’d just jab, lean, grab and smother Usyk like a bear for 12 rounds and it would be boring. Usyk dominates every other heavyweight easily just outboxing them.

[Alph]

I think the HW division now is as good as it was for most of Wlad's reign

Edited April 24, 2022 by Alpha

[Comrade 86]

17 hours ago, Alpha said:

I think the HW division now is as good as it was for most of Wlad's reign

I agree though I think even then there's context required. This era does not compare to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lennox, Bowe generation, nor for that matter the Ali (and I say that on purpose ?), Foreman, Norton and Frazier era.

Fury looks to stand alone currently and one has to respect his record, but claims (not by you my friend) that he stacks up against any previous HW champ are IMO nonsense. Wilder and a past his prime Wladimir Klitschko aside, he's literally fought nobody of note and certainly nobody who compares to any of the aforementioned.

We also have folk citing Holyfield and Ali as his only peers, apparently unaware that Lewis, who doesn't warrant a mention, outboxed and outfought Holyfield not once, but twice. Also worth pointing out that should he retire now, he'll have effectively dodged Usyk and AJ. That's not to say he'd not beat those two, but he can't lay claim to being the greatest of his generation having not fought the only two credible challengers. Saying he's nothing left to prove therefore seems a tad disingenuous. 

[Jubbs]

Fury barely scrapes in top 10 heavyweights of all time, never mind top 5. He's defended his titles twice. TWICE. Before he even gets talked about being the GOAT, he needs to fight the likes of AJ/Usyk, not ducking them. Lets be honest here, he's taken too many easy fights. Sure, people feared Wilder due to his punching ability, but he's got no boxing ability. Whyte is a perfect opponent for Fury, just like Chisora was. Now he's talking about retiring or even facing Ngannou? Give over. 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Jubbs

[Alph]

30 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I agree though I think even then there's context required. This era does not compare to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lennox, Bowe generation, nor for that matter the Ali (and I say that on purpose ?), Foreman, Norton and Frazier era.

Fury looks to stand alone currently and one has to respect his record, but claims (not by you my friend) that he stacks up against any previous HW champ are IMO nonsense. Wilder and a past his prime Wladimir Klitschko aside, he's literally fought nobody of note and certainly nobody who compares to any of the aforementioned.

We also have folk citing Holyfield and Ali as his only peers, apparently unaware that Lewis, who doesn't warrant a mention, outboxed and outfought Holyfield not once, but twice. Also worth pointing out that should he retire now, he'll have effectively dodged Usyk and AJ. That's not to say he'd not beat those two, but he can't lay claim to being the greatest of his generation having not fought the only two credible challengers. Saying he's nothing left to prove therefore seems a tad disingenuous. 

I don't believe his retirement talk for a second. Knowing his poor mental health he knows he needs boxing in his life in some capacity. 

I think he knows that AJ and Usyk need to beat him as much as he needs to beat them to prove himself. 

He'll say he doesn't want the fight and they'll call him out. He'll say he's not been in the gym for x months and they'll call him out. Promoters will push him for one last fight. And then he'll come back claiming to be out of shape and not interested. It's classic Fury making sure he's in control. He came back for Wilder not AJ remember. And that was about bargaining power. AJ losing twice has made him #1. But there's no chance he retires if AJ beats Usyk. Slim chance if Usyk wins. But everything he's said and done to undermine AJ was not out of spite but to make sure he can control the when/where/how much. 

In regards to HW of times gone by. I think it's like the Pele v Messi thing. It was a different game back then. Defenders were different, rules were different, sports science was different. I have no doubt Pele would be way ahead of Messi if the both played back then. But I think Pele would find it harder going now playing. As athletes we've built on their progress. We've learned from their years. The game has developed. 

And I think that's the same for boxing. I think if you lift many of the old greats into today that they'd find it harder. The game has changed. I dunno, I just think like any sport there's so much more for athletes to draw from now. F1 drivers in these modern machines, footballers so finely tuned etc etc. 

I do think Klitscko (both actually) are deserved legends. But I look at their record for stand out wins and there's not a great deal. I think AJ has probably taken the most risks at every stage of his career (its absurd anyone questions his record)

Klitschko was very much The Man when Fury beat him. Any earlier and it wouldn't have been prime Fury. Same as Lewis v Tyson. The timing suited Lewis more than Tyson. As did his fight with Holyfield. It was Holyfield's decline from that point. Holyfield at 6ft 2" does he beat Tyson Fury? 

It's all too complex imo to figure out who's the best ever. 

Timing and styles make fights. Wlad is more legendary in the sport than Vitali yet Vitali never had the struggles of Wlad. He was never knocked down and was forced to retire in his losses (Lewis raking his cuts was one). Vitali also made short work of Corrie Sanders after Sanders beat Wlad. But Wlad is widely considered the better of the two. 

It's very rare boxers meet while a group of them is in their prime. But this current generation is similarly aged and very competitive. They came in towards the end of Klitschko's reign and there are good bunch of them now all capable of beating each other. Ultimately 2 of them beat Klitschko. 

Would they beat Lewis? I dunno. Lewis was immense. But the best of this generation will be able to stand alongside Lewis and Mike Tyson hopefully without people saying they had it easy. 

The HW division is very competitive. 

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I don't believe his retirement talk for a second. Knowing his poor mental health he knows he needs boxing in his life in some capacity. 

I think he knows that AJ and Usyk need to beat him as much as he needs to beat them to prove himself. 

He'll say he doesn't want the fight and they'll call him out. He'll say he's not been in the gym for x months and they'll call him out. Promoters will push him for one last fight. And then he'll come back claiming to be out of shape and not interested. It's classic Fury making sure he's in control. He came back for Wilder not AJ remember. And that was about bargaining power. AJ losing twice has made him #1. But there's no chance he retires if AJ beats Usyk. Slim chance if Usyk wins. But everything he's said and done to undermine AJ was not out of spite but to make sure he can control the when/where/how much. 

In regards to HW of times gone by. I think it's like the Pele v Messi thing. It was a different game back then. Defenders were different, rules were different, sports science was different. I have no doubt Pele would be way ahead of Messi if the both played back then. But I think Pele would find it harder going now playing. As athletes we've built on their progress. We've learned from their years. The game has developed. 

And I think that's the same for boxing. I think if you lift many of the old greats into today that they'd find it harder. The game has changed. I dunno, I just think like any sport there's so much more for athletes to draw from now. F1 drivers in these modern machines, footballers so finely tuned etc etc. 

I do think Klitscko (both actually) are deserved legends. But I look at their record for stand out wins and there's not a great deal. I think AJ has probably taken the most risks at every stage of his career (its absurd anyone questions his record)

Klitschko was very much The Man when Fury beat him. Any earlier and it wouldn't have been prime Fury. Same as Lewis v Tyson. The timing suited Lewis more than Tyson. As did his fight with Holyfield. It was Holyfield's decline from that point. Holyfield at 6ft 2" does he beat Tyson Fury? 

It's all too complex imo to figure out who's the best ever. 

Timing and styles make fights. Wlad is more legendary in the sport than Vitali yet Vitali never had the struggles of Wlad. He was never knocked down and was forced to retire in his losses (Lewis raking his cuts was one). Vitali also made short work of Corrie Sanders after Sanders beat Wlad. But Wlad is widely considered the better of the two. 

It's very rare boxers meet while a group of them is in their prime. But this current generation is similarly aged and very competitive. They came in towards the end of Klitschko's reign and there are good bunch of them now all capable of beating each other. Ultimately 2 of them beat Klitschko. 

Would they beat Lewis? I dunno. Lewis was immense. But the best of this generation will be able to stand alongside Lewis and Mike Tyson hopefully without people saying they had it easy. 

The HW division is very competitive. 

Where have I said they've had it easy? That said, I'd lay strong money that Tyson, Ali, Lewis and co would dispose of of the likes of Whyte in double quick time so I'm not sure how the football analogies are relevant. Agree to disagree I guess.

[Alph]

33 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Where have I said they've had it easy? That said, I'd lay strong money that Tyson, Ali, Lewis and co would dispose of of the likes of Whyte in double quick time so I'm not sure how the football analogies are relevant. Agree to disagree I guess.

Oh no, I didn't mean you said they had it easy. I meant in general when people make comparisons they'll say that Mike Tyson had to fight this guy and that guy. Lewis had all these guys

That all Fury had to do was beat an old Klitschko. 

The football I just mentioned because like in any sport the game evolves. The techniques, the strategies, the sports science. Every sport has a different "META" for what's out there. 

Look at the names of any great era and I think during that time you see big names that are past it (like Holyfield v Holmes, Lewis v Tyson) that boost the rep of the fighter of that generation. 

There were plenty of Whyte's, Chisora's and Co that were there for Ali, Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis. I'd imagine some of them Fury, Klitschko, Usyk and AJ would have no trouble with. Especially Fury given his size, speed, ability. 

I think its very much like Messi v Pele. There's no way to know if Pele could do it against Sergio Ramos as there's no way Messi would appreciate some of the interesting pitches and tackles. 

I see the argument on YT channels and they all get well caught up in it. Start abusing each other. ? 

Anyone can only beat whats in front of them. But I still think Klitschko went a long time fighting names that were neither relevant to the previous generation or the current generation. It seemed much of a meh division for a while

Remember that big lump Valuev!!?

[BaaLocks]

9 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I agree though I think even then there's context required. This era does not compare to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lennox, Bowe generation, nor for that matter the Ali (and I say that on purpose ?), Foreman, Norton and Frazier era.

Fury looks to stand alone currently and one has to respect his record, but claims (not by you my friend) that he stacks up against any previous HW champ are IMO nonsense. Wilder and a past his prime Wladimir Klitschko aside, he's literally fought nobody of note and certainly nobody who compares to any of the aforementioned.

We also have folk citing Holyfield and Ali as his only peers, apparently unaware that Lewis, who doesn't warrant a mention, outboxed and outfought Holyfield not once, but twice. Also worth pointing out that should he retire now, he'll have effectively dodged Usyk and AJ. That's not to say he'd not beat those two, but he can't lay claim to being the greatest of his generation having not fought the only two credible challengers. Saying he's nothing left to prove therefore seems a tad disingenuous. 

Not what I said, but anyway. I said defensively he's as good as any boxer of the last fifty years. He is. Technically, his foot work and hand speed are also comparable with any boxer if the the past half century. He is a much better technical boxer then many give him credit for.

And his size means he would be hard for anyone to shift (that said Primo Carnera and Nikolai Valuev were big units and it didn't do them any favours). But there is more to being a good boxer than good footwork and a big frame, which is why I did not go anywhere near claiming he is some sort of GOAT.

As you say, definitely preferred Lewis for sheer size and strength and outside the UK there are plenty, like Foreman for example, who would have done him. But you can only fight what is in front of you, Ali beat Dunne, London, and a good few more that could have been called easy pickings. Joe Louis had his bum of the month club but it didn't stop him being regarded as a great.

Tyson Fury is not just a big spoiler and he has fought big names, it's so easy now to say Wilder was there for the taking. Most would have him favourite against AJ and he'd probably be too big for Usyk.

I like Tyson, he's a good boxer and should be remembered as such. That's all I'm saying, but you have fun digging for a squabble if it makes you happy.

[Alph]

If he doesn't fight the winner of Usyk v AJ then he'll regret it forever and it will tarnish his legacy. 

But I can't imagine him not taking that fight. There's no way he walks away from that no matter what he says. He didn't get to this point in his career to stop here when he just sold 94k and is finally getting the love he should have had after Klitschko. If he didn't come back for these kind of fights then what did he come back for? To fight Deontay Wilder? Just all the way back for Wilder, a guy who sold just a few thousand tickets each fight. 

 

He came for stadium selling AJ who gave fresh life into boxing and was taking all the credit Fury hadn't had. Fury had only ever really praised or ignored Joshua until Joshua became superstar. Then he suddenly can't shut up about him. But he fights Deontay Wilder and says he's not interested in AJ. Then he defends vs Whyte... did he really need to? 

The only way he doesn't fight Joshua imo is if AJ loses. But he can still collect from Usyk now. Its not what he planned when he went to get that WBC bargaining chip. But I don't think he expected Joshua to lose to Ruiz and catapult Fury to #1. 

It's just all fell better than he expected. But he came back to get what he's owed. Recognition that he is the #1 of an era. If he could live with the doubt he would have stayed retired. 

Let's no forget his whole life crumbled when he beat Klitschko and had no purpose. He's being driven by something again and I don't think Dillian Whyte was the final piece. 

He's always played the long game. Like the sauna story. Retiring is just him forcing them to chase him. Mayweather did it. It's role reversal and he'll be calling the shots in July when Usyk/AJ need to beat Fury for their legacy.

[Bris Vegas]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

If he doesn't fight the winner of Usyk v AJ then he'll regret it forever and it will tarnish his legacy. 

But I can't imagine him not taking that fight. There's no way he walks away from that no matter what he says. He didn't get to this point in his career to stop here when he just sold 94k and is finally getting the love he should have had after Klitschko. If he didn't come back for these kind of fights then what did he come back for? To fight Deontay Wilder? Just all the way back for Wilder, a guy who sold just a few thousand tickets each fight. 

 

He came for stadium selling AJ who gave fresh life into boxing and was taking all the credit Fury hadn't had. Fury had only ever really praised or ignored Joshua until Joshua became superstar. Then he suddenly can't shut up about him. But he fights Deontay Wilder and says he's not interested in AJ. Then he defends vs Whyte... did he really need to? 

The only way he doesn't fight Joshua imo is if AJ loses. But he can still collect from Usyk now. Its not what he planned when he went to get that WBC bargaining chip. But I don't think he expected Joshua to lose to Ruiz and catapult Fury to #1. 

It's just all fell better than he expected. But he came back to get what he's owed. Recognition that he is the #1 of an era. If he could live with the doubt he would have stayed retired. 

Let's no forget his whole life crumbled when he beat Klitschko and had no purpose. He's being driven by something again and I don't think Dillian Whyte was the final piece. 

He's always played the long game. Like the sauna story. Retiring is just him forcing them to chase him. Mayweather did it. It's role reversal and he'll be calling the shots in July when Usyk/AJ need to beat Fury for their legacy.

History will already view Usyk as a GOAT at cruiserweight and a phenomenal boxer to win titles at heavyweight.

History won’t remember Tyson Fury as a GOAT for merely being undefeated having only beaten an old Vlad, Wilder and Whyte.

I can’t see Tyson Fury retiring and allowing AJ or Usyk to win all the belts at heavyweight and cement a legacy. History will look more favorably on the guy who does that and see them as the best of their generation.

No way will Fury allow that. Too much ego. He simply has to fight the winner of AJ/Usyk and win to go down as a great. If he retires now, his name will barely be mentioned in 20-30 years.

[BaaLocks]

4 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

History won’t remember Tyson Fury as a GOAT for merely being undefeated having only beaten an old Vlad, Wilder and Whyte.

I can’t see Tyson Fury retiring and allowing AJ or Usyk to win all the belts at heavyweight and cement a legacy. History will look more favorably on the guy who does that and see them as the best of their generation.

No way will Fury allow that. Too much ego. He simply has to fight the winner of AJ/Usyk and win to go down as a great. If he retires now, his name will barely be mentioned in 20-30 years.

Jeez, we Brits sure love to knock 'em down don't we?

- When Fury beat Klitschko he went to his (effective) back yard and beat a champ making his eighteenth defence of this title

- Fury didn't just beat Wilder once, he beat him three times, each and every one in his back yard. When he fought him he was undefeated in 43 fights and had made ten defences of his title

- Fury too the Dillian Whyte that everyone had been dodging for three years, the longest ever spell as number one contender

To repeat, Tyson Fury is not the greatest (even Brit) of all time, and I absolutely agree with you that he needs that unification fight for his legacy, as @Alpha pointed out so well I won't go further. But if he's barely mentioned in 20-30 years then - back to my very first point - history will have been very unkind to him.

[Jubbs]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

history will have been very unkind to him.

Why? He's made 2 title defences, one of them against a guy who he'd already 'beat' twice and a guy who's probably the perfect opponent for Fury. 

He was also banned for taking nandrolone, a banned substance. Which has seemingly gone under the radar.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Jubbs said:

Why? He's made 2 title defences, one of them against a guy who he'd already 'beat' twice and a guy who's probably the perfect opponent for Fury. 

He was also banned for taking nandrolone, a banned substance. Which has seemingly gone under the radar.

OK, let's play a little game, we'll take turns, British heavyweights of the past fifty years that were better than Fury.

Me first. Lennox Lewis.

Now you - have as many goes as you want.

[Jubbs]

3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

OK, let's play a little game, we'll take turns, British heavyweights of the past fifty years that were better than Fury.

Me first. Lennox Lewis.

Now you - have as many goes as you want.

Sure, British heavyweights he's up there. But only British, when you start considering Americans he's barely top 10. AJ although likely gets beat by Fury, he's still got a much better resume than Fury does. 

[BaaLocks]

51 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Sure, British heavyweights he's up there. But only British, when you start considering Americans he's barely top 10. AJ although likely gets beat by Fury, he's still got a much better resume than Fury does. 

Not in order but we can probably agree on Tyson, Ali, Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Holyfield, Foreman. Fury comes in around eight for me, if that is your definition of 'barely' then fair enough but that's a pretty tidy list to be coming in behind. Globally you might add a peak Klitschko to that list, obviously Lewis and we have a British boxer that is a top ten heavyweight of the past half century.

But, to me, it's worthy of a bit more appreciation than "He's made 2 title defences, one of them against a guy who he'd already 'beat' twice and a guy who's probably the perfect opponent for Fury". As for nandrolone, fair point, we'll scratch Canelo from the record at the same time then.

[Jubbs]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

As for nandrolone, fair point, we'll scratch Canelo from the record at the same time then.

They need an asterisk next to them, because they are drug cheats. Yes, a lot more boxers than we know about are likely to be taking PED's, but those 2 have been caught.