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Just when I thought I was out ,,,, they pull me back in 
whata ya gonna do??‍♂️

It’s a two way thing though, it’s good to have someone who cares what you do ?‍♂️

Just when I thought I was out ,,,, they pull me back in 
whata ya gonna do??‍♂️

Just when I thought I was out ,,,, they pull me back in 
whata ya gonna do??‍♂️

You stepped forward, fearless, you surveyed your target, chose your line and throwing caution to the wind you took your shot.
Sadly...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

It's easy to claim from the West that NATO is an entirely defensive organization and if Ukraine joined that would continue to be the case. But put yourself on the other side of the divide. From the East, NATO looks hugely powerful. It has already expanded to "capture" almost all of Eastern Europe. 
It also invaded Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan, destroying those nations. Where next? 
I remain horrified that there are people who genuinely appear to think NATO jets shooting down Russian ones wouldn't have the most terrible consequences. 
There will always be conflicts unless you can put yourself in the mind of non-Western leaders. And try to understand why they have acted as they have. 
While Putin's actions are terrible here, we need to work out a solution that deescalates rather than pouring more fuel onto the fire. But it is obviously complex and difficult. 

Chaps by essence, this is a geo-political thread. It then follows that the roles of Western governments, before during and after this invasion will be discussed and debated. We were not asked to avoid political discourse, rather we were asked to avoid name-calling.
Back on topic, Putin has apparently offered to take part in peace talks in Minsk. I somehow doubt the sincerity of this offer and think it most likely that any such talks would achieve little more than delaying further sanctions and outside intervention as well as providing another opportunity for Putin to grandstand and make demands he knows will not be accepted.
Meanwhile, Russian forces appear to be trying to encircle Kyiv but are being met with fierce local resistance which may also explain Putin's rather timely offer of peace talks. Other reports claim that Russia has also restricted access to Facebook and other social media which may in itself be an indicator that what 'progress' is being made is being done so at a higher cost than expected.
There's little doubt in my mind that Putin has been planning this action for a very long time and that this was to be his 'opus', but I do wonder whether in the same way that the West has underestimated Putin's obsession with his legacy, whether Putin himself has underestimated the resolve of the Ukrainian people to meet every act of aggression head on. I also wonder whether an ever-increasingly unsettled Russian populous (or the military for that matter) will tolerate losing many young men to what appears to be little more than a Putin 'vanity project' should the fighting turn as bloody and unrelenting as now seems likely. My hope is that he may have finally overplayed his hand, though even if he has, whether a wounded and defeated Putin is less of threat than an apparently omnipotent one, is very hard to surmise. 

I think that is looking at the situation from one perspective only.  From an Eastern European viewpoint NATO would certainly be looked on a defensive arrangement.  But from the Russian point of view, and I mean even your average Russian civilian, NATO expanding to being right on Russia's border will undoubtedly be seen as a real threat and an offensive move by the West.
As for the Cuban missile crisis, it was never really just the Cuban missile crisis...it was also the Turkish missile crisis.  It was the American deployment of Jupiter ballistic missiles in Turkey, well in range of Moscow, that precipitated the Soviet response of positioning missiles that could strike the US in Cuba.  The crisis wasn't resolved until both the Cuban and the Turkish missiles were removed from their threatening locations. 

When Ukraine agreed to give up it's nuclear weapons in 1994, the US, the UK, and Russia all agreed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine”. That was the so called Budapest memorandum.  It guess it doesn't count for much anymore.
When Gorbachev gave the reunification of Germany his blessing in 1990 (it was partitioned partly to prevent it from ever being capable of invading Russia again), he did so with an agreement that NATO would not expand eastwards towards the Russian border.  That agreement was forgotten after a few years by President Clinton. It seems completely understandable to me that Russians are anxious about the expansion of NATO (an organization that is obviously hostile to Russia) to it's borders...and in doing so NATO has been partly to blame for creating a pretext which the deplorable Putin was only too willing to use to further his own personal objectives.
A calculating ruthless operator, Putin seems only too eager to return us all to the bad old days of the former Soviet Union and the West battling for supremacy.  The only beacon of hope for the future is that his popularity with younger Russian has plummeted in recent years.
I guess his plan is to replace Zelensky with a puppet government, more amenable to Moscow's wishes.  Whatever is this war does...it certainly will expose Putin (who for some reason had always enjoyed some support on the far left.....as well as the far right) for the ruthless dictator that he always was.

A very complex situation. And everyone should realize the first casualty of war is the truth. I didn't expect Putin to properly invade (expected much more of a boiling frog setup) but, now he has, what are his strategic aims? Probably to split Ukraine in half up to the river. 
It's a perfect storm. Biden is weak and oversaw a catastrophic retreat out of Afghanistan. Putin has been in power so long he's becoming unhinged and unchallengeable internally. Merkel has gone, leaving a newbie German regime plus her legacy of abandoning German nuclear power stations in exchange for mining lots of coal and buying lots of Russian gas, so putting the Russian economy into credit. NATO looked in disarray, with Turkey openly courting Moscow. NATO had previously committed to not expanding to the Russian border, but how can you deny the sovereignty of the Ukrainian people? 
My feeling is it should have stopped with Russia annexing Crimea which should have been accepted. In the  UK we're used to unchanging borders, but not on the Continent. Crimea was in Russia until 1954 when Khrushchev (from Kursk) thought it would be neat to give it to his "favourite republic". But the population there remains majority ethnically Russian and it houses the Russian Black Sea Fleet and in the 2014 referendum it seemed reasonably clearcut the Crimeans wanted to return to being part of Russia. Yes there were caveats, but Western polling also shows it's what the people want.
We have the Cuban Missile Crisis analogy in more ways than one. America didn't want nukes on its borders, but shouldn't that have been up to the Cubans? In the same way Russia doesn't want them on its borders pointing at Moscow and St Petersburg, but isn't that up to the Ukrainians? It's difficult but I just wish people hadn't been in such a hurry to shift from East to West, but that's easy for me to say in the West. The other link to the analogy is that if anyone missteps, there's the terrifying prospect of escalation. It's weird to see so many MPs calling for a no fly zone over Ukraine when this would mean NATO and Russian fighters in direct conflict. And the sad truth is also that our media doesn't half love a good war. "What a story!" is always  their attitude regardless of the eventual consequences. Just look at the ratings.
First impressions are it's not gone how Putin would have hoped/expected. His troops are facing fierce resistance and they haven't established aerial superiority. And NATO has come together unexpectedly even if the EU is blocking the removal Russia from the SWIFT banking system, and that's despite Ukraine's direct request. The sporting sanctions (and Eurovision) probably came as a surprise as these things are normally so apolitical. In my last job (only just left) I was due to go to St Petersburg in July for a maths conference and even that may now be cancelled, plus there's divisive talk between normally cooperative space agencies. The UK government has done pretty much as well as it could have (doubtless welcoming the distraction). Including being among the first to supply a lot of weaponry to Ukraine in the run-up, despite the Germans blocking this as much as they could. 
All we can probably do is containment and wait for it to play out. Is their a neutral broker (Switzerland?) that could instigate serious talks? But if so to what end? If Putin gets nothing it could be catastrophic for all of us in terms of creating a desperate situation in Russia and the possible collapse of his regime, where he might not care if the world burns with him. But obviously he shouldn't be rewarded for his aggression. I think the most practical solution would be for the Russian forces to retreat to their borders, but end up keeping Crimea to save face, with an agreement that Ukraine doesn't join NATO until 2035 or some such.
Sorry for the long post - thinking aloud.

Apologies, I’ve not read your post properly, took it as you meant ok with the topic as long as people didn’t get abusive 

From the little I pick up his main excuse is areas of Ukraine that are populated with Russians who feel/ claim they are treated very badly,of course the nato issue is large in this too , the break up of the ussr was always going to be a cluster duck powder keg at some point ,the real problem comes when sabre rattling from both east and west coupled with MONEY and power struggles at the top dumps on ordinary people ,, same old same old??‍♂️

Why would you want to , the quality of the stitching in the gusset will be second to none??‍♂️

Why would you want to , the quality of the stitching in the gusset will be second to none??‍♂️

The Sports Direct stand.

You may be surprised, personally think the situation may be more complex than just Russia bad west good , that in no way means I think Russian ( putins) actions are right 

Tame Millwall fan here. I have posted before, but not for a while. 
I enjoyed the game last night, mainly because you got it on, unlike Blackburn Rovers! Seriously though, as football fans, we all know the epicaricacy or 'schadenfreude' nature of the game's culture... and last night was a classic example. It was interesting and enjoyable to see a large crowd gather to get behind their city's only professional team so passionately, as their young and patched up side gallantly tries to overcome the huge obstacle of a 21 point deduction. I mean that by the way. I am not taking the Michael. This sense of spectacle was heightened by the fact that I was one of the 514 band of followers of perhaps the most unfashionable football club in England, managed by a disliked former Derby manager and containing some unpopular former 'Rams'. 
I think once the disappointment of losing what on paper looked like a winnable home match dissipates for you, you will be once again be filled with pride and no little hope - as Rooney and your players are doing an amazing job. I see some are already in that place. As others have pointed out, your young side came up against a very experienced and well-drilled defence last night. However, it must also be noted, that the reason we 'celebrated like we had won the league', is because we are going through our own injury crisis, and are also having to field a lot of young players, including a 15 year old! 
I also take issue with being called 'tin-pot'. Yes, we are a small club at Championship level, but I would not say we are tin-pot. I associate 'tin-pot' with clubs with no real character, history or romance. The sort of club whose fans sing the same old generic songs as everyone else - thankfully I have never heard a Millwall crowd sing a generic football chant like 'Everywhere We Go' or 'Easy' etc. etc. In fact, because of our strong sense of identity and character, I have only ever heard us sing very Millwall centric songs - NOLU, Let Em Come, Millwall to different tunes. 
Furthermore, Millwall have a rich and proud history - pioneers of professional football in London and the South no less. The only club able to challenge the dominance of the northern and midlands sides in the late Victorian era in football's oldest competition - the FA Cup. In fact, this is the reason Millwall are the only senior football club in English football to earn their nickname through footballing endeavour and achievement! Formerly the 'Dockers', Millwall were christened the 'Lions of the South' by the national press, after giving the likes of Aston Villa (the best club side of the Victorian era), Everton, Preston NE and yes, Derby County, bloody noses in the cup! 
Moreover, I was first taken to The Den by my granddad and uncle in 1985. By my maths, in the 37 seasons that have followed, Millwall and Derby County have played at the same level in 23 of them. That hardly suggests that going by endevours on the pitch, that Derby County are a vastly superior outfit. In fact that reflects rather poorly on Derby County, who represent a whole city and since Chesterfield have slipped out of the Football League, are the only representative for the whole of Derbyshire playing top level football. Whereas Millwall have to compete with some of the biggest clubs in world football in Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspur and West Ham United (spit) only a tube ride away, plus the likes of Crystal Palace and Charlton Athletic on our doorstep. I would argue that rather than being 'tin-pot', we are a very well-run club that gets the most out of its resources, allowing us to be a humble but proud second tier battler that no-one likes playing at The Den or in the cups. That may not be 'ambitious', but what's the alternative? Chase the dream like Derby County? 
That leads me on to Gary Rowett. Many Millwall fans are not enamoured with him either. You are correct, sometimes the football is painful. But needs must. Again, I take issue with it being 'typical' Millwall. From my time supporting the club Millwall have always been an aggressive and direct team yes, but in a positive way. That is to say, taking the game to the opposition, especially at The Den. However, Rowett is a dour pragmatic manager. That isn't Millwall, more like Charlton! But, times have changed, the Championship is full of big city clubs with regional level support like Derby County, Nottingham Forest, Sheffield United etc, all wanting to get into the promised land, as well as clubs like Bournemouth and Fulham, their pockets filled with the filthy lucre of parachute payments. Millwall currently need to keep their heads down and become more and more entrenched, like a tick in the Championship beast and hope we get a lucky season like Burnley or Huddersfield Town did, or even the jammiest of jammy clubs - Crystal Palace! 
Also, the club hierarchy are quite happy for a steady ship, as their main concern is this: https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/february/millwall-reveal-plans-for-stadium-redevelopment/
The opportunity to develop land around The Den, which would allow us income streams to compete seriously for promotion. If and when it gets given the green light (Lewisham Council has already approved the adjoining Renewel development), then I would imagine Huski will fully takeover the club and maybe our ambitions will increase. Until then, it is all aboard the keep it steady Rowett Express! 
Okay, if you bothered to read all that, I will sign off by genuinely wishing you well... because as football fans of a grand old club like Derby County, you certainly do not deserve what you have been through! Even if you do not win this battle, I am positive you will bounce back stronger for it! Good luck. 

Passing was off all night and no final ball , minus 21 points just leaves no room for games like that , derby till we die though ?

Give over ,he’s a pastor ,he will take her up the aisle surely ??‍♂️

What are them two up to then? Makes you think doesn’t it?

And stay up on the BACK of it

Hi @B4ev6is, I think and hope he's joking. Blood type: B+
An alternative joke would have been to glance across at his son and castigate him for always been gloomy: "Oh Rhesus, so, negative"
You are such a caring person B4. Bless you.

Ah don’t think for a minute that at the time I wasn’t screaming some very unpleasant language to the screen aimed at Tom ?

What defines derby county?
 
US ,,,,,,, those that went before us and those that will come after us , anybody who went first time as a child or even adult ,with a parent , family member , friend and those of us that have taken our child , family member, friend to they’re first game understands that bond ,it’s goes on to define us and derby county , it’s not what you think it’s what you feel

I am pretty much with you. The only thing really holding me back is that I remember a few years ago dealing with a very difficult, but nonetheless important client of the bank I worked for. We had been in quite a tense renegotiation of facilities, and well, spontaneously, in a red mist moment, I twatted her just as she was leaving the Banking Hall. Went down like a sack of spuds she did. My staff were quite supportive generally, and yes my Manager gave me a bollicking initially, but what was really nice was all the customer letters I got which said I had done some really good things during the year, and so the Bank suggested I take a bit of time out, perhaps get some sun as I was obviously under a bit of pressure. Random acts of kindness like that stick with you don’t you think? Well, they do with me, and for that reason I do so hope Tom finds himself a nice resort, and place to relax, over the next week or two.