Oldben

WHEN CAN A COMPANY DIRECTOR (Mel morris) BE HELD PERSONALLY LIABLE FOR CORPORATE DEBTS?

https://www.companydebt.com/articles/could-you-be-held-personally-liable-for-your-business-debts/

Daily mail is stirring up trouble, usual rag newspaper stuff to fill out its pages.

It's unfair to blame administrators who are qualified in this sort of thing and will not do anything unethical or illegal.

Potential owners will have been versed on these things.

Kirchners aware of the club's full financials and still makes the trips to watch games.

Hes aware that hmrc would put the club onto a repayment plan.

The only other thing hanging over the club is the legal claims by Wycombe wanderers and Middlesbrough, I believe a good lawyer for Derby can crush those claims plus appealing to the efl as if these cases were won it would set a dangerous precedent.

14 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Heaven forbid ‘competition’ should ever be equated to ‘fairness’. 

Brady has a mute argument, the clubs which go bankrupt are those that try to compete with the clubs that receive the parachute payments of near 90 million over the 3 years after they are relegated.

Some other areas of unfairness in my opinion ...

If a promoted team avoids immediate relegation, Deloitte estimates that winning the play-off final could increase revenue by £135 million to £265 million in 2020.

During the 2018-19 season, the Premier League's 20 clubs shared £2.4 billion ($3 billion) in broadcast revenue.

A base of roughly £82.5 million ($104.4 million) per team, regardless of position, was guaranteed by the league.

Merit payments ranged from £1.9m for last-placed Huddersfield Town to £38.3m for champions Manchester City, while 'facility fees' were linked to the number of televised games.

It is my hope that the phrase "doing a leeds", doesn't get changed to "doing a Derby".

Derby already have the record for lowest points tally for a season in the Premier league.

Leeds has 3 years in League one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_a_Leeds

I'm not under the illusion that the current team as it stands will have an easy ride in League one.

The club must strengthen, it requires a new owner. 

It requires a great scout network to acquire the best players from league one, why from league one? What top championship players would wish to play for Derby in League.

The issue if the clubs in League one will also be one of money because the best players in league one generally play for the best teams in League one and those teams are unlikely to let their best players go cheap.

Yet Derby will need those kind of players, with any new players i think, the club needs to say that they are rebuilding the club and the players are not just for a season but that new players could easily make the step up and play at the top of the championship.

I don't mind if that means that Derby pays the highest salaries in the Championship, in fact, I want that because it will attract the best players.

If it annoys the league one teams that Derby poached their best players, I'm OK with that. For years, derbys best players have been sold to cover debts and those players in many instances have not been replaced by the best players.

I also want a youth scouting network as I want Derby to poach the best youth players from the lower leagues.

I keep reading about Derby losing our best youth players to other clubs, I want to see that stopped.

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Yes perhaps he would be marvellous. The concern is that like Mel he’s got no experience running a football club. Hopefully unlike Mel he’ll pick good people and rely on them 

Plenty of people who have had experience of running football clubs don't make a success of it.

It's obvious to me that you don't buy a club for millions in derbys condition without intending to rebuild the team.

Derby will need a new scouting team.

It will need to bring in strikers who can score a lot of goals.

It will need top assist players in the midfield

The current defence is probably the oldest in the Championship, that doesn't inspire me with confidence for league one.

10 minutes ago, angieram said:

I'm sorry but that sounds just like Mel Morris, and we know how that ended.

In my opinion, mm at first site was a good potential owner for Derby before he became the owner.

His tenure is a different matter, his recruitment policy was wrong in many cases both on managers and on players that joined the club.

Under mm we simply didn't have enough successful players brought in.

Mm took risks on new managers, but Lamport for example almost got the club promoted, though Lampards best signings in my opinion were his Loan signings.

How many managers that mm brought to the club would have been the fans first choice.

It felt to me as if mm was getting the wrong advice.

In case Derby are relegated, i see this as the correct advice for Derby to follow ...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/building-promotion-winning-plymouth-argyle-5292764.amp

But that in my opinion does not mean Appleby & co, would fit that requirement.

1 hour ago, Kathcairns said:

Do you think we need a complete break from people who have been connected to the club before.

I think we need owners with ...

- ambition to drive the club forward

- desire to spend to build the team

- understanding that a director of football can always be hired to assist with the running of the club, someone with the connections to get the right players in to achieve better things with club

- someone who rebuilds a quality scouting network at Derby

- someone who doesn't sell off all the youth talent but is willing to invest in the academy and let the youth play in the team

- someone who fully supports the manager and gives then the back chance of success

- someone who knows what it takes to build a successful business, even if that's not previously been in football

- someone who listens to the fans

- my recollection of Appleby & co, was that they were cautious owners but I believe spending has to take place at Derby if they are to rebuild the team and in my opinion it requires significant spending to rebuild.

9 hours ago, RamLad1884 said:

Kirchner will likely have the least liquid funds, least footballing links and least knowledge of the current bidders from the information we have so far. 

It's likely he realises this and wants to hammer a deal through before the other parties step up their interest (if at all). If you get the likes of Appleby/Rush/Moxey etc getting serious their links to existing footballing infrastructure will be more valuable than any money can add. 

Appleby/rush/moxey blandly led the club before.

They were able to show a total lack of ambition for the club.

There footballing links did not work out fantastically before, Derby were not known as the invincibles (reference one of Arsenal's former great teams) under their tenure.

Is 20 year old Pride Park fair value at an estimated cost of 50 million, and that wouldn't include the training ground which I understand isn't owned by Mm.

In comparison, Chestfield built a new 10500 seater stadium in 2019 for 13 million.

So an estimate of say 40 million to build a 30000 seater stadium? If that was an option.

Equally, if an option Derby could build a 20000 seater stadium for a lot less.

I read that mm is owed 125 million, Maguire says who would by the club in League One with 56 million owed to creditors, plus 125 million owed to mm, even if mm accepted 25% of that plus the 50 million for the ground.

Could Derby potentially rent a ground share with Notts county. Notts is 20000 seats.

If in league one, would Derby get 25000 plus crowds every week.

Renting Notts County ground would be cheaper than buying back the ground.

Not that happy to consider paying mm millions after what's happened to the club.

The administrators are unlikely to spend serious money on a legal case for this matter, it requires new owners but if the new owners are willing to pay for good lawyers to defend Derby in this business then I'd have to argue its time for the administrators to step aside.

Sell Derby now.

What justifiable reason do the administrators have for delaying the sale of the club.

I think any new owners will have taken legal advice over the club's issues and with regards to boro and Wycombe, the lawyer would advise that this is winnable and that its still worth buying the club.

Assuming that's the case, let's get on with and defeat boro and wycombes claims in a court of law.

1 hour ago, RAM1966 said:

Just wondered if Morris has any support left at all now that the full extent of the mess that he's created has been filed at companies house? 

Are we now all agreed what a disaster he's been for the club?

Boro and Wycombe court cases are a real danger to our existence, while I think they have zero chance of succeding, it may put off buyers...  Wycombes should be against the EFL not us for dragging proceedings out...

 

So where are the Mel lovers now?

Derbys new owners will bring in quality sports lawyers who will rip apart the boro and Wycombe Court cases.

It's been mentioned on this bulletin board before that if the efl allowed such cases to succeed it will seriously hurt the efl as well as Derby and open the floodgates to other clubs being damaged in this way by other claims, how could the efl keep silent on something like that and if the efl did so then I doubt the efl needs to continue to exist because they would be unfit for purpose for failing to act in their members best interests.

I intensly dislike the efl.

2 hours ago, JPRamFan said:

Yeah we are doomed for relegation because of Professor Pope's academic theory on FRS102. It's nearly as bad as the guy that compared PP's valuation to Macclesfield's stadium. I wonder where the EFL get them?

Could professor pope be sued by the new Derby county owner for placing the club in jeopardy with a theory that could fairly easily be beaten?

Doesn't Morris still own the ground that the new owner might wish to buy back

I support ck takeover of Derby

1 hour ago, Pearl Ram said:

I’m in. ??‍♂️

Ck has under performed this season, isn't good enough for this club and is definitely not scoring above 10 goals a season

25 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Plymouth use MRKT Insights for their recruitment/data analytics.

One of the co-founders of MRKT, Ram, follows Derby and is incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to recruitment/data, no coincidence Plymouth are where they are, especially with a great manager too.  

It's my opinion that plymouths approach to recruitment is the right one given where they are in the League.

I don't agree with saying bargain basement works.

I see us losing a number of players between now and when we most likely join league one.

We will need a talented team to get promoted in one season.

Assuming quality Championship players will not sign for us in the club's current position, once a transfer window opens again.

We will have to pay above the market rate to get the best players in league one to play for us, to buy out contracts.

To convince players to sign for us instead of going to Championship clubs.

In my opinion we need to sign a 20 goals a season striker.

I've said before that in paying millions for Derby and paying off derbys debts, the new owners will not consider a weak team for league one. 

Expectation is to promote in one season.

If in the 2023/24 season we are back in the Championship I will be happy and if Leeds could be in the Championship then, I will be happy.

In any case its a statement to be able to say we were relegated and bounced back in one season.

On 15/11/2021 at 12:06, Woodley Ram said:

soo, don't bother about getting the team ready for L1? You don't have to spend big money. there is a difference between spending as part of a sustainable business plan and not chucking money at a dream.

I never said about spending millions or spending above our means but we need to strengthen 

Hm ... so that's an interesting view ... now I'm taking my advice from someone who knows what they are selling, that will be Plymouth the top team in League one and this is what their manager says about how to win promotion from league one ...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/building-promotion-winning-plymouth-argyle-5292764.amp

Interesting because with gibsons position at the efl a real court of law, not the efl joke ones, will see definite bias in how Derby has been treated.

That makes it more likely gibsons case would be thrown out on terms of vendetta.

There's now zero reason to wait, the administrators need to sell the club and leave.

A cautionary tale, noting lessons learned.

Leeds Relegated to League One

Leeds were docked ten points for going into voluntary administration at the end of the 2006/07 season. 

The club owed HMRC £6m and would have gone into liquidation if not for administration.

They lost 15 points before their first League One season because they didn't pay enough of their creditors.

In League One for three years.

Leeds were promoted to the Championship in 2009/10 thanks to Jermaine Beckford's 25 league goals.

Manchester United were beaten by Leeds in the 

2009/10 FA Cup third round.

Leeds United were promoted to the Premier League in 2019/20 after 25 managers since their relegation to League One.

Take Homes

* to win league one you need a quality team with a top scoring striker, they must be able to score circa 20 goals in a season

* it's tough in League One, you need an astute manager

* a club in difficulty like Derby, needs to say we will never back down. If Leeds can do it, so can Derby

* Derby require a very astute and tactical manager who knows how to get promoted

For any players that Derby don't wish to lose, there needs to be contracts in writing guaranteeing that the club will pay whatever salary is required to keep those players next season. That sort of contract doesn't kick on until the transfer embargo lifts, but I'd it doesn't happen then Derby could lose a lot of money from players who are near the end of their contracts and from any players with a release clause if the club is relegated.

11 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

We have to hope that by some miracle Ole Gunner is still in charge of Man U come January and next season, I can see us getting a few lads on loan.

In my opinion, new owners will not spend millions buying the club to give us a bargain basement team in League one.

Especially as they will want promotion in the first season in League one.

Derby County can build a League One promotion-winning squad, but it will be costly.

The recruitment must have begun. 

We need promotion winners, men, and people who just win matches when told.

Several Derby players are out of contract in the next six months, and something must change to resurrect the ship.

Many of Derby's players aren't good enough to get promoted.

Agent fees, signing on fees, relocation money, and wages are all financial packages for players.

Promotion winners are usually good players. 

They have CVs, 300 league games, promotion and have been near the top.

The top seven in League One earn between £3,000 and £5,000 per week, with some earning up to £10,000.

Even in the lower divisions, some big clubs pay over £2,000 per week.

So, packages are £100,000 per year plus agents' fees, signing on fees, and relocation. A striker makes £200,000 a year.

Derby should be looking at paying a quality striker at least £300,000 a year - probably £350,000 for a striker - a complete package, in League one.

The EFL's role in the process and the wide-ranging impacts of allegations, investigations and sanctions all contribute to the growing demand for an independent football regulator.

For me the lack of compassion, care, decency, humanity from the efl towards clubs.

It's time for change at the efl.

The efl should act in the best interests of their members but can they honestly say they do.

I think the administrators pulled the appeal against the 12 points because the efl said its unlikely that Derby would win and if the club lost then instead of adding 9 points the efl could add upto 17 points or have I read that article wrong.

If I'd read it correctly it would make sense that the administrators had pulled the appeal even though that could make the sale of the club very difficult.

A relegated club is likely to fetch a lot less money.

So this is why the appeal was ended.

Game, set and match to the efl.

https://the72.co.uk/255427/nixon-reveals-further-details-about-Derby-countys-efl-punishment-rams-got-off-lightly/