PistoldPete

1 minute ago, LincsRam said:

just got a small touch off the Sheff player, not sure if it would have gone in, we have had ZERO luck today

We have had zero luck for the last 12 years.

1 hour ago, alexxxxx said:

Some optimism bias in that figure as well I imagine.

They are acountants. They are never optimistic. 

16 hours ago, IslandExile said:

"95% chance of survival".

I wish he was more optimistic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58665019

Well yes. A 1 in 20 chance of the Rams being liquidated is still far too high. It must never be allowed to happen. 

37 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

According to the Athletic our wage bill is a lot higher than £10m. They quoted £2.5m a month. I asked Matt Slater where he got that figure from and he said 'various sources' 

Where did you get your figure from?

Without the accounts  I suspect its going to be pretty hard to pin it down. It will be interesting to see how much of the administrators information finds its way into the public domain 

 

He’s a Forest fan. We know that five senior players are on £4,500 per month some kids ebosele , macdonald and co will be on less . We only have a first team squad of 23 and so that’s about half the squad on about £500 k or less. so where do his unnamed sources get to £2.5 million per month ? That’s an average of well over £1million pa per squad player so must be wrong. 

bielik , jozwiak and Lawrence will be top earners in the £1m to £2m pa bracket but that’s pretty much it . You would hope we have insurance for bielik. 
 

when we were struggling to pay players wages it was said we needed £1 million for that month. That’s £12 million a year and we have cut costs since then .

4 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

thanks that was an interesting post

maybe it's the case but I don't think it's usual for administrators to be on that sort of deal at all. I think they tend to work simply on the basis of an hourly rate.

I was surprised they thought 90 days was needed for a sale because they have a data room already set up for buyer diligence.  They told us this needs only limited updating. And some buyers have looked before. Seems to me the key timing points are agreeing a deal with HMRC and EFL. The extended sale period is costly (in administrators fees, and interest). The delay suits MSD if the value of their secured assets comfortably covers their debt and interest, because no doubt they have a very high default interest rate. Of course they have a charge on the stadium so I would think they are very comfortably covered. (Did someone say it is worth 80m? Seems hard to believe if you look at the rent!)  The ongoing costs erode the sale price and I guess the cost falls on the unsecured creditors because I don't think MM gets a penny for the shares. Well maybe a penny 

One reason they might have tried to force a quick sale is that if we go back into lockdown in November, the whole thing is in jeopardy and could impede a sale before the Jan window

We need a quick sale so that things are sorted before January. We will sell players for sure but that will be decision of the new owners and hopefully not a fire sale 

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes the wages belt has been tightened - but how, in an unplanned way!? The squad has been left massively unbalanced and as can be seen now we are suffering because of that lack of planning.

Unfortunately plannning to reduce spending when anya butterfield and co were on four year contracts is easier said than done.

26 minutes ago, Crewton said:

But if money had been made available to reinforce the weaker structure, the Earthquake might only have caused the pictures to fall off the walls rather than cause the collapse of the entire structure. 

If kelle Roos hadn’t dropped the ball onto McGinnis head administration wouldn’t have happened. But that isn’t the proper legal test , you have to look at the proximate cause .

5 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

No chance an appeal would work. If COVID was the sole reason were in administration it might have done, but COVID isnt the sole reason.

It'd be a waste of money to attempt it in my opinion.

The lawyers will say you have to look at proximate causes of an event, not the historic chain of events that preceded it like historic overspending.  And covid , along with the decision to call in the administrator was indeed the final straw. 

To win a force majeure case the administrators would have to show that the owner did everything he could once covid had struck to avoid admin. Well he was  trying very hard to find new buyers, was denied a loan from the EFL to help with covid liabilities, so instead arranged emergency funding from MSD.. but it was MSD in the end who pulled the plug. What more do you think he could have done in that situation?  Sell players? Given we only avoided relegation by one point do you think that would have helped our financial position if w had sold our best players? And our best player was out long term injured anyway. 

28 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I am disappointed that Mel hasn't committed to tightening the belt. If instead of increasing debts he'd forced a reduction in outgoings, the 1.5m quid a month he's putting in would drop. Surely the end game for all championship clubs has to be running costs below income? 

He could continue to fund the running costs until a buyer is found if there's a clear end to that cost. That's what I was presuming he meant when he said he'd fund us until a buyer was found. Each transfer window would mean a controlled reduction of higher cost players. But no, the costs haven't been addressed. 

If we were looking for a buyer, start by getting the balance sheet in order. Stop chasing the premiership dream. We gambled to the point of lunacy. 

Player wages have dropped from £47 million in 2017-18 to just over £10 million now.. so there has actually been a massive tightening  of the belt. Unfortunately revenue has also dropped mainly due to covid.

Season ticket money this year is just a carry forward from last year so only match day tickets providing attendance money. Thats why we are still losing money. 

6 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

There's a piece in today's Sun where Rooney says he understands how tough things can be for the staff because his Mum is a dinner lady at the school he went to and she might be about to lose her job. #emotionalintelligence.

"The England legend is determined to treat all his Rams’ staff — from the players to the cleaners — with  the   respect   they deserve.

Rooney, kept in the dark for weeks by outgoing owner Mel Morris over the club’s issues, said: “Communication is key.

“My mum is in exactly the same position. My mum is still working at the same school I went to — as a dinner lady.

There’s discussions over whether that school gets closed down. She doesn’t know whether she’ll have a job or not.

So I know how life works and the struggle many people have with bills or mortgages and putting food on the table.

I’ve gone through that first-hand as a child. I know a lot of people and family who go through it on a daily basis.

The best way to handle it is to be open and honest. If not, people will see through it.

Transparency and honesty means a lot, even if it is a tough decision that gets made and people lose their jobs..."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/16226544/wayne-rooney-Derby-mel-morris-doctor/

I do t think Rooneys mum needs to worry about her finances . 

14 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Maguire addressed Derby's recent appointment of administrators due to their financial difficulties, focusing on the club's debts.

In his words, “the estimates I've been provided range from low to mid-twenty [millions] of what is owed to the tax authorities.” 

Your football debts are valued at £10 million.

After paying the first £35 million, a quarter of the remaining obligations, estimated at £5 million to £10 million, must be paid.

“And finally Mel Morris. 

Mel Morris has now lent Derby County approximately £100 million. 

If he wants 25% of that, the administrators will have to sell Derby County for £60 million for a team in League One that

doesn't own its stadium. 

So where we are now is quite concerning.”

on top of which efl are looking to hit Derby with another load of points next year, when Derby are very likely to be in league one.

The administrators presumably have better information than maguire … and they are not so negative. I don’t think there is any likelihood  of points deduction next year.

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

I'll be amazed if they punish us quickly. They will be absolutely devastated if we manage to stay up so I expect them to prevaricate as long as possible so they can fit the points deduction to ensure relegation.

Its a pity the EFL aren't subject to FOI. I'd personally pay to see the communications between Steve Gibson and the lickspittles at the EFL.

 

Efl need to sort it out otherwise without clarity they will put off the new owners .

5 hours ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

I don’t want Derby to get Points deducted but ask yourself this, of all the 72 clubs why is it only Derby that Covid has driven into administration.

Remember that not all clubs took up or were eligible for the EFL loan.

I simply think its unlikely that Derby’s Challenge will be successful for the reasons I have previously given.

 

 

Can't compare Derby's loss of £20 million in revenue with the other 72 clubs, most of them lost nothing like that. Most of the bigger teams in the Championship had parachute money, or got Covid support money. We may be first into admin but we will not be the last.  

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

I'll try to restore some balance. MM has poured £££s into the club in pursuit of his dream and ours. He's made some foolish mistakes, been unlucky and has been up against a system that forces ambitious chairmen to roll the dice. Were you listening to what the administrators said (russian roulette etc) ? But he's ultimately paid the price for being hot headed, too strong headed and too inexperienced to take an executive role. And we are sharing the pain  

As others have said, he is no angel. But he is no devil. 

Likewise, Rooney has said and done plenty of foolish things in his short time with the club. He Is now -  I agree - showing the leadership that is required. Let's hope his positive influence continues. This is a long game. We need him right now, we really do

But consider this. They are at loggerheads, they have not spoken for many weeks. MM in his interview had nothing but effusive praise for Rooney. Rooney on the other hand did just as the media wanted and took the opportunity to give MM a good slagging off. Oh and this is before a sale in which, according to the administrators, MM has agreed to waive all his debt claims against the club. 

Utterly unnecessary. A shame Rooney missed the opportunity to show his maturity or his class. 

Totaly agree. Rooney playing to the gallery of the press. Cheap and unnecessary. Ok he is miffed that Mel hasn't spoken but Rooney went too far.  

9 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

see clause 12.10.2

but only only on the ground that the relevant insolvency event(s) arose solely…..

Ok but see above.. other contributory factors were discounted in the wigan case.

1 hour ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

Then Covid is just a contributing factor to the clubs demise, that word SOLEY in the EFL rules has been drafted to make the force Majeur event the single one event that is wholly attributable to the clubs fall into administration.

 

Where does it say SOLELY in the EFL Rules?

Wigan's administrators brought a force majeure defenceand lost.. but this is what the tribunal said..

"We reject the submission of Mr Taylor QC that there were other, also effective, causes,
including the significant increase in the Club’s players’ wages and on transfers. That
these made the Club increasingly dependent on the owner’s continuing support is clearly
true. But so long as that support continued, the ship would have stayed afloat. It was
only when the owner pulled the plug that it sank."

So the overspend by Derby on wages etc may have contributed but were not the cause. In Wigan's case the owner withdrew support 7 days after taking over. So they were on a loser. Derby have a much strongr force majeure case, especially as it was MSD , not the owner, who filed for administration, so that was outside the control of the owner.

2 hours ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

The EFL will argue that if Covid was the Sole event that drove Derby into administration why didn’t it have the same effect on other clubs !

it a good argument.

 

It's not an argument at all. How did covid affect Derby , not how did it affect other clubs. And the fact that EFL gave a loan to other clubs but not Derby doesnt help EFL's case if that is what it is anyway.   

6 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

The EFL rules state that a Force Majeure event can only be considered if it was the SOLE event that caused administration, were we already in financial trouble before Covid ?

Not true. It says that the force majeure event must have caused administration directly and the owners must have used all reasonable efforts to stop admin from happening.

whatever mess we were in before COVID happened is irrelevant , it’s what happened after then did the owners do enough to stop admin happening ? 

58 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

"that's a great question" oh come on ?

Well that’s true. Ed Dawes never asks any great questions.

1 hour ago, Burton_Ram said:

Awesome interview yes…

… but do we have to careful not to upset Mr Morris too much with negative comments and laying into him in public… he does still hold the keys to Pride Park Stadium.

Exactly. Not sure what the point of Rooney having a pop at him was . The interview on Radio Derby was maybe a bit cold and unemotional but  nothing Morris said in it struck me as dishonest .

27 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

That's certainly the DCFC viewpoint. Given the political situation and at least one breach of £4m in the reatated accounts I would be very surprised if we don't get clobbered with a hefty deduction because it's the EFL.

We have already been punished for overspending … a 12 point deduction and administration. Anything more is double counting… and Efl criticise us for our poor accounting!

40 minutes ago, Rammeister said:

Just said on Radio Derby that Rooney had said he hadn’t spoken to Morris for SIX MONTHS!! 
 

 

Bloody hell!

Well we lost in excess of £39 million even with the profit from stadium  sale . Before the stadium sale accrued losses were over £80 million in just three years ending 2017/18 . So maybe Mel said here you are , I swap you the stadium for the £80 million debt you owe and we are quits? We lost ££20 million during pandemic  , then there is money owed to keogh cocu plus money lost during lampards year. All adds up.

19 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Exactly and the confidence to the chances of us finding a buyer is largely reliant upon the scale of the club's debts and assets of which none of us know that much about as of yet really except that it's bad enough to put us into administration. 

Most of the talk is of debts being £50 million to £60 million. It’s not like the club is going to find someone who will just clear all the debts. Some of the debts go away under a CVA but most will remain . 
 

if the club were liquidated then it loses the revenue from its fans , by far its biggest asset.  That would leave assets being leases on PPS and Moor Farm which would become worthless on liquidation plus the players who might fetch £10 million in a fire sale in January. 

so even preferred creditors would be looking at a massive hit and would be mad for HMRC air whoever to force liquidation. 
 

the club might cease trading pending new owners and be banished from the League but I don’t see liquidation as an option.

It isn’t just about City of Derby , we are Derby county after all. It affects the whole community outside of Derby as well .