PistoldPete

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

It did defer paying VAT and also suspended winding up orders being issued by the HMRC until today,fans have been back in grounds for nearly a year now.There was also a loan of £8.3M made available to clubs from a finance company via the EFL to help pay HMRC which because of transgressing the rules we couldn't take advantage of. Not all clubs took the loan,only 14 out of 24 clubs i believe.

You believe wrong. We were denied the loan by the EFL because we were suspected of breaking the rules, including the stadium sale.  In fact the IDC decided we had not broken that rule, but too late we were denied the loan anyway. Clubs in receipt of parachute money were already getting money from EPL so didn't need the loan. Derby weren't , and defintely needed the loan but were denied the loan by EFL  as extra punishment for crimes we were later found not to have committed.

7 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Your book is strange.

How do you imagine it came about that the club avoided its tax obligations? Did they forget? Did they decide they wouldn't pay? Did they say, 'it's not fair, so we won't pay.'?

How does tit-fot-tat usually go with hmrc?

I think Hmrc didn’t collect taxes in recognition of the COVID situation . And the reason for that was yes in part because the Government recognised the financial strain their policies were causing . 
 

how it comes about when a Company or an individual gets into financial difficulty is they pay bills they have to to avoid further financial disaster. Player wages we know are a good example .. miss those on a regular basis and you lose players , get thrown out of the league or whatever no one would buy the club and Hmrc would get paid nothing. 

to be honest , I am more concerned about shinner Nicholson losing his job than I am Hmrc getting 25 p in the pound or whatever.
 

3 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

They were ordered to shut their ground but not for 15 months,only 3,after that football resumed and fans paid for and watched by streaming services for which thee clubs would be receiving an income. There were more important things affecting the country than grounds being open for football to be played.

I notice you didn't respond to my answer to your post - as a taxpayer do you agree with the stance taken that the club allowed a debt of £26m to accrue to HMRC

As a taxpayer I agree that where the Government prevents you from earning an income it should compensate you fully for your loss and / or defer collecting taxes in recognition of the financial strain it has caused. 
 

Just now, AndyinLiverpool said:

They owe us tax

Government owes Derby £20 million compo for lost revenue , Derby owes Government in tax so they are quits in my book . 

2 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

 As a taxpayer do you think the stance of allowing a tax bill of £26m to accrue is acceptable

If you lose £20 million of revenue but still have contractually to pay £30 million in wages I don’t see how you can exactly avoid building up big debts. 
 

The loss of revenue was caused by Government policy. As a taxpayer I am not happy that the Government has caused that but we risk going into politics which is verboten on this forum .

9 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I never understood why we paid those transfer fees for both Bielik  and Jozwiak because at both points it was clear we needed to cut back strongly yet the fees for both were large - we absolutely could have made money on both of them but the timing seemed so wrong.

With bielik I think we had lost mount tomori and Wilson so needed quality to replace them . We got compo for lampard but yes I agree in hindsight we were overspending . 

2 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

So even if it was only last year (and I doubt it), why are the club signing players like Jozwiak rather than paying what they owe the country?

Derby shut their ground for 15 months which cost them £20 million. To protect the NHS. They don’t owe the country anything.

35 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

The ground may have been shut for 15 months but money was still coming in via the season tickets from those that didn't request a refund and also from Ramstv. It just happened to be Joz that got fouled,it could have been any one of the players, by saying he got fouled is a feeble excuse.

Obviously just using that as an example. We sold loads of players in 2020:1 if we had sold any more or not brought in replacements we would have been relegated. 

2 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

The government did tell you you weren't allowed to go to work that's why furlough was introduced.

So the Government compensated people who couldn’t earn anything. Why didn’t they compensate Derby for their loss of income due to protecting the NHS and banning football crowds ?

5 minutes ago, seths-cap said:

Just a daft game to play in between reading all doom and gloom efl/fa tea bagging fiasco.

From the team we had the first season back in the championship until now, pick three players you’d like in the squad right now. 

Try and pick based on what we actually need as opposed to just typing Martin/Martin/Martin if possible. 

I’d go for Hulse, Thorne and Barker

All three were sick notes. 

1 hour ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

So even if it was only last year (and I doubt it), why are the club signing players like Jozwiak rather than paying what they owe the country?

They made a profit on transfer dealings I believe in 2020/1 .  Probably didn’t think the stadium would be shut for 15 months. If jozwiak hadn’t got fouled in the penalty box against wendies we would be in league one already and We would have lost more than his transfer fee.

1 minute ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

HMRC's claim dates only from 2020?

Overpaying players is neither here nor there. They have not paid their tax bill. To us, the people of the UK. What would happen to you if you decided to indulge in something expensive rather than pay your tax?

I think if the debt is around £26 million and our wage bill is still around £30 million according to some reports . So Paye and ni for 18 months yes would be around £26 m… 

if the government told me I wasn’t allowed to go to work and earn money to pay their taxes yes I would be rather miffed if they still charged me tax .

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

Really,can you explain why after such a statement.

Philip green extracted large sums from his businesses and then they went bust. Mel Morris put large sums into the rams , so the exact opposite. 

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

So you are saying the club was trading whilst insolvent. Many other businesses have gone into liquidation.

No  I didn’t say that. Hmrc agreed to defer tax during the pandemic.

1 hour ago, Sheff Ram said:

While things remain positive on the pitch, for me, the worry of liquidation is still very real and much higher than the 5% that the Administrators put it at.

In a recent and credible report I've read, it puts an estimate for the funds needed to re-stabalise the club in the region of £70m-80m. A bit more detail on the liabilities:

1. around £27m to HMRC - will have to be paid in full and currently getting charged interest on

2. Circa £8m to "other" creditors (including Cocu) - would need to be paid 25p in the pound

3. the £100m in 'soft' loans to Morris associated with Pride Park. He's indicated he would be prepared to write these off, but it would still leave a £21m charge on PP to MSD Finance. Hence new owners will either have to pay rent for the ground or pay off the debt. Hence MSD are also in the equation if a successful purchase is to be achieved.

This puts the club's liabilities at around £50m. On top of that, new owners will need to inject money as "working capital" to keep the club running (hard to estimate but could be anywhere between £5m-£15m) and provide 2-years proof of funds to the EFL (circa £15m). Hence it is easy to see how this estimate of £60-80m has been arrived at.

A source in the article also suggests potential investors may wait until May next year once demotion has (most-likely) been confirmed but a deal really needs to be done sooner rather than later. They also think that at the EFL there is likely to be a real "concern" that the club could slip into liquidation.

Another source puts the "bare minimum" of buying the club out of administration to be £38m (excluding working capital and the ELF proof of funds requirement).

Sobering stuff.

What article are you referring to? There is a lot of pish on the internet.

3 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

If you look at other multi chain names which have disappeared from the high streets and the Tens of thousands who have lost their jobs therefore the companies and staff no longer paying PAYE etc (the Arcadia group to use as an example) i would imagine that is a hell of a lot more than what they would lose if Derby finished up in liquidation. If you look at the pragmatic course we have/had an owner who could have paid out of his own pocket if he so wished but chose not to.

There is no comparison between Mel Morris and Philip green they are polar opposites 

10 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

It's an absolute disgrace that the club has robbed us taxpayers.

Eh? By overpaying players in wages , the club has also been very generous to Hmrc. Until COVID, when they ran out of money to pay the HMRC… along with many other businesses.

47 minutes ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

But 100% of nothing is nothing. I expect there's a deal to be done.

The thing is with Hmrc, if they liquidate the club that means no more Paye from players wages . Which makes no sense , and I as a taxpayer leave alone a Rams fan would not be happy with such a counterproductive stance.

11 hours ago, angieram said:

Rams Trust have tonight published their report of the meeting with the EFL.

The short delay was due to the EFL asking to approve this before publication.

 

Efl being as unhelpful as ever. Will they never learn?

Unfortunately if we end up getting deducted 21 points and these penalties stick unchallenged in the courts , our current sterling efforts on the pitch will be in vain i think.  There are no really bad teams in this League .. even Forest are picking up now. 

It is really very silly what other fans come up with. Blaming us for Keogh leading the players on a drunken rampage in Allestree, all Derbys fault of course despite us laying on taxis for the players to get home safely. 

Blaming us for overspending.. when we spent half what Villa did on wages, and  fraction of their net transfer spend. Our net transfer spend is about £25 million under Morris.. Villa's in the same period  is about £300 million. Financial mismanagement by Derby, but not by Villa apparently.. because they got promoted and we didn't. 

5 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Incidentally why do we get 9 points for being 4m over ?

 

I think we will be over the limit more than once as we got our budgeting wrong due to our amortisation policy . The 9 points would mean we don’t keep being punished for the same thing. But really overspending was the reason we were in a precarious  position going into the pandemic and then we lost £20 million of revenue too and ended in administration and 12 point deduction.

Given all the handicaps off the pitch , the lack of fit goal scorers , plus the absence of Bielik our points won of 13 so far is remarkable . Well done to Rooney and the players. 

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Twenty redundancies of non-playing staff yesterday. The harsh personal reality of administration for those involved. 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/Derby-county-administration-job-losses-5986762

Sad if unexpected. Hope everyone affected gets something sorted soon.

54 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Not only is it a weird angle to take to insinuate they had some resposnibility for the mess we found ourselves in, I honestly don't think it would have mattered and we'd have ended up in this mess anyway pretty much.

What's more in line with actions of how the club has been run:

1. Take the profit made of selling the likes of Gordon for a big fee and use it to ease off the debt and make sure we are financially healthy.
2. Take those funds and just pour them into a big transfer fee for just that one player on big wages who will "get us over the line". Which inevitably doesn't quite work out.

We are in this mess entirely down to poor decision making over a long period of time and MM deciding he wasn't going to put any more money in to support us.

Er.. the club has bene run out of funding an academy out of Mel Morris pocket. Don't blame Gordon or Delap for taking the silver dollar.. but it does seem ironic that people are blaming us  for financial mismanagement when our best players have been poached for next to nothing.