Is it time to start protesting against the board ?

[AndyB]

Spot on dabber, well said.

[Jayram]

Surely, any investment has to be in the region of "millions of pounds" - hence you are referring to a 1.5m pound player. How many of those do you think we need? Cos if it's more than one then the club needs an investment of millions of pounds!!! And the question is, can we do this whilst not losing money? IF the answer is no, then do you propose a gamble investment?

Sharp and Lambert cost £3.5 million between them. Their goals will take Southampton into the Prem after one season in this division. Do you consider that that amount of money is a gamble investment? I'm not suggesting spunking millions on Claude Davies type signings but the constant pennypinching will lead this club nowhere except to being the most solvent club in the bottom half of the Championship for the next 10 years. Is that what you are happy with? Is that worth paying a double the rate of inflation increase on a season ticket for? Its not good enough for me and, I suspect, a lot of other Rams fans either.

[ladyram]

No, it's time to get behind the players, manager and board.

Absolutley. Can't see any kind of protest having owt but a negative effect on the team and with a certain match coming up in March, maybe nows not the best time anyway.

[rynny]

Sharp and Lambert cost £3.5 million between them. Their goals will take Southampton into the Prem after one season in this division. Do you consider that that amount of money is a gamble investment? I'm not suggesting spunking millions on Claude Davies type signings but the constant pennypinching will lead this club nowhere except to being the most solvent club in the bottom half of the Championship for the next 10 years. Is that what you are happy with? Is that worth paying a double the rate of inflation increase on a season ticket for? Its not good enough for me and, I suspect, a lot of other Rams fans either.

Just out of curiosity the last time the season tickets went up to this time, has it increased higher than the rate of inflation? Also I am sure that there has been a VAT increase as well. You have some valid points but the ST increase isn't 1 of them.

[Day]

Just out of curiosity the last time the season tickets went up to this time, has it increased higher than the rate of inflation? Also I am sure that there has been a VAT increase as well. You have some valid points but the ST increase isn't 1 of them.

Current Derby County season ticket holders will be able to keep their seat at Pride Park Stadium for the 2011/12 season at the same great price as the current 2010/2011 season - providing they renew before the 30th April 2011 early bird deadline.

For the sixth season in a row the Rams have frozen their season ticket prices, which are amongst the most reasonable and competitive in the npower Championship and represent great value for money.

The price freeze applies in all areas of Pride Park before Saturday 30th April 2011, even for fans who are seated in areas that have been re-categorised for next season.

Supporters will not feel the impact of the VAT increase either, as the Club has made the decision to cover the cost to ensure season tickets stay the same price as the last five seasons.

Derby County CEO Tom Glick told dcfc.co.uk: "A Derby County season ticket represents excellent value for money and we are delighted to again be keeping the prices on hold.

"Even though VAT has gone up, the cost for season ticket holders remains the same; so it's the same great seat for the same great price.

http://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10270~2289907,00.html

[RotherhamRam]

We also lost to West Ham, Barnsley, P'boro and were ****** by Soton and Leicester. So what?

just saying. As always there are a couple or three teams who tend to be the team everyone struggles to play against and this year would appear to be Birmingham, WHU and Southampton.

The rest of the teams are capable of beating each other. Some do it more often, some go on short runs or long runs of good results. Then there are the bottom 5 r 6 teams which struggle (which over the last couple of seasons we have tended to be in or around this area) who can still pull of a shock result.

That is all I am saying

[RotherhamRam]

Sharp and Lambert cost £3.5 million between them. Their goals will take Southampton into the Prem after one season in this division. Do you consider that that amount of money is a gamble investment? I'm not suggesting spunking millions on Claude Davies type signings but the constant pennypinching will lead this club nowhere except to being the most solvent club in the bottom half of the Championship for the next 10 years. Is that what you are happy with? Is that worth paying a double the rate of inflation increase on a season ticket for? Its not good enough for me and, I suspect, a lot of other Rams fans either.

The difference is they have over the last few seasons also raked in £15 million at least in transfer money in the sale of Walcott and Chamberlain. This has helped them to develop the team and squad ready for this season. When was the last time we made any money in that region. Some of the youngsters coming through if they continue may be worth some money in the future but is that what we want where we produce players sell them to bring in expensive players who cost more in wages.

[RotherhamRam]

Just out of curiosity the last time the season tickets went up to this time, has it increased higher than the rate of inflation? Also I am sure that there has been a VAT increase as well. You have some valid points but the ST increase isn't 1 of them.

Agree we have had a number of years without increases in season ticket cost. I would argue that we are also one of the cheapest in the division in respect of season tickets.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Sharp and Lambert cost £3.5 million between them. Their goals will take Southampton into the Prem after one season in this division. Do you consider that that amount of money is a gamble investment? I'm not suggesting spunking millions on Claude Davies type signings but the constant pennypinching will lead this club nowhere except to being the most solvent club in the bottom half of the Championship for the next 10 years. Is that what you are happy with? Is that worth paying a double the rate of inflation increase on a season ticket for? Its not good enough for me and, I suspect, a lot of other Rams fans either.

How many years of no increase are you counting with your "double the rate of inflation" comment?

[Ramshankered]

A protest to what end?

Say in theory, a protest happens and upsurges both board and manager? Who exactly is going to sweep in to save the day and take the club to the promised land? The world doesn't exactly seem overrun with investors fighting it out to take over ailing football clubs right now.

Just look at the likes of Portsmouth, Coventry, Plymouth and Newcastle (a club that were also on the market recently). All have have at some point been linked with 'several parties of investors', yet very rarely does anything come of it.

If people aren't careful we could end up in a situation like Forest did with Nigel Doughty - they scared off their investor with their protests and look at them now. Not exactly a good business model.

[Donny Ram]

The harsh reality that all clubs face, FFP rules, will be ratified by owners of Championship clubs in the next couple of weeks. Full details were agreed at the Pride Park conference last week and will see the constraints applied from the start of next season. The stupid levels of borrowing, or so called investment (rather ironic that isn't it), have been un-susstainable in football for far too long and this reality check is long overdue.

What will FFP mean for the Rams?

We should be able to be more competitive as the wage offers made to players will be capped as a squad limit expressed as a relationship to club income.

The new developments being planned at Pride Park will see the club generate additional income. Our larger fan base will give us an advantage over most established Championship sides Clubs relegated from the Premier League will have to comply with FFP, the exact rules for relegated sides are I believe still a bit of a sticking point. The parachute payments are there to allow them to honour contracts of players on higher wages but the Championship clubs want a wage cut inclussion in all players contracts to apply if Premier League teams are relegated to the NPC. It is likely that the exact level of expenditure will eventually be capped at circa 70% of income as a maximum to be spent on players wages, some want it set lower than this.

Derby's last published accounts showed wages and salaries of £14.5m although it has been mentioned by the club on several occasions that this is now between £9m and £10m, the new accounts are due out next month. Derby showed gross profit of circa £8.5m on a turnover of roughly £30m, this does not take into account depreciation of assets or loan payments, the overall nett loss was circa £2.16m although as Ramblur has pointed out several times we do not know the exact writedown figures of cancelled contracts etc. In theory, and this is a big in theory, the approximate £5m cut in wages should put us in to a profit situation of at least balance the books. Trade the £2m loss off against the cut in wages and then reduce to take account of falling attendances and the lower TV money receipts that take effect next season. The big unknown is the player writedows as previously menmtioned, you would assume the depreciation should be quite considerably lower given the lower transfer fees paid and the players in the squad that are home grown, this should also improve the balance sheet as the will become an asset. Of course, none of this really matters as it is down to our owners to do as they wish to and to bring our club in line with the new regulations.

In short, we should be in a far healthier state as a club and in a position to compete on a relatively even playing field.

[SillyBilly]

Sure that is a cracking post Donny but I can't read any of it, just switch off completely. I also find my eyes glazing over with Ramblur's undoubtably well researched and thought out posts. We should really have a separate section of the board for accounts because its got to the point where its discussed just as much as the football and its killing my interest by the day. I might go and watch Alfreton Town next year (cue comments of disloyalty) because I'm just fed up of it, football (to me) should be an escape from the drudgery of business and work during the working week. You'd be forgiven for thinking a bunch of accountants were meeting up for a pint before a DCFC game these days- sad times.

[Gaspode]

anybody understand how this is likely to impact where a club has a rich owner that is willing to put their own money in?

I suppose what I'm wondering is will the football league clubs become far less attractive to the millionaire owners if there are limits on the salaries that can be paid - it seems at present that a millionaire can come along, buy a club and pump lots of money in to buy success (big transfer fees, big wages, etc). If the wages are limited as a proportion of turnover, will that mean that the millionaire owner can only have a minimal impact at the club and if so, would they be unlikely to want to get involved?

If this is the case, while Glick & co are trying to get everyone to operate within their means, it could actually mean that we're stuck with the current owners for a very long time as a rich sugar-daddy won't see us as an attractive purchase - it could potentially just open up an even bigger gap between the premier league and the football league....

[bearam]

Sure that is a cracking post Donny but I can't read any of it, just switch off completely. I also find my eyes glazing over with Ramblur's undoubtably well researched and thought out posts. We should really have a separate section of the board for accounts because its got to the point where its discussed just as much as the football and its killing my interest by the day. I might go and watch Alfreton Town next year (cue comments of disloyalty) because I'm just fed up of it, football (to me) should be an escape from the drudgery of business and work during the working week. You'd be forgiven for thinking a bunch of accountants were meeting up for a pint before a DCFC game these days- sad times.

I couldn't agree more. I spend Monday to Friday running my own business and see Saturday afternoons as the time I can enjoy football instead. I have renewed my season ticket for next season but if the situation hasn't drastically altered by then it may well be the last time.

[Ramarena]

The difference is they have over the last few seasons also raked in £15 million at least in transfer money in the sale of Walcott and Chamberlain. This has helped them to develop the team and squad ready for this season. When was the last time we made any money in that region. Some of the youngsters coming through if they continue may be worth some money in the future but is that what we want where we produce players sell them to bring in expensive players who cost more in wages.

Walcott??????

He was sold in 2006 that's six years ago and Soton have since been in administration.

We sold Idiakez and Tommy Smith in the summer of 2006 should we still be talking about the money we got for them?

[Guest]

Donny Ram, you say that the FFP comes into place next season, but can you tell me when clubs have to comply by, my understanding is that this is not until 2017, if true does this mean that we wont be on a relatively even playing feild for another 5 years ?

[Ramarena]

Donny Ram, you say that the FFP comes into place next season, but can you tell me when clubs have to comply by, my understanding is that this is not until 2017, if true does this mean that we wont be on a relatively even playing feild for another 5 years ?

Correct the final stage is in 2017 when clubs will have to have their deficits down to £5m, so no we won't be on an even playing field for 5 years. And even then clubs can overspend by £5m

Add to this that clubs coming down from the Prem will have much larger turnover than us due to parachute payments and I think you are going to see a league of the haves and the have nots.

Their are loopholes as well. As far as we are aware there is nothing to stop a rich chairman sponsoring his clubs stadium for a huge sum to increase the turnover and allow higher spending, this is just one loophole example.

Also it's not 100% sure to pass. Birmingham don't want it and West Ham have threatened legal action if FFP is voted in. On the other end of the spectrum you have Palace, Brighton and Burnley who are not satisfied because they don't think FFP goes far enough.

[Ambitious]

I see no other option BUT to protest, just yesterday I saw a billionaire outside burning money praying to the gods to let him take over at the famous DCFC!

If there was an owner to come in and spend absolutely **** loads on the first team, youth team... club, stadium....etc without making us potentially ****** in the future then fantastic i'll even pick him up but if for unknown reasons that person who is willing to waste his life savings on a middle of the road championship club, then I would take our board who are trying to make us compete off our own back, over another one who will just stack up the debt!

and oh yeah, obviously Clough out.. what was I thinking, best thing to do now is definitely get rid of a long term manager and bring in someone to go back to square one!

Isn't this exactly what Forest did? sacked a long serving manager in billy and hounded out a chairman who was putting in lots of money just to cover losses, that didn't exactly work out for them... their saving grace is that Portsmouth are in a worst state than them and out of the bottom 3 on a technicality! 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' />

[WilkoRam]

Ah the Board or Manager debate. It continues in earnest and will never stop until either one of them goes or we start doing well.

For my two pence worth

From Nigel's first full season in charge we have signed 5 strikers. It's not like we're creating loads of chances and our strikers aren't putting them away, yet who are we looking to sign? Not players who can create those chances but more strikers to feed off scraps. We have Ward who I would consider a creative midfielder, Carroll was well maybe, at a huge push Davies ( B ). For those saying we play beautiful football I personally don't consider stringing a few neat triangles together in the middle of the park to be beautiful. Barcelona aren't beautiful for the time they do small passes together in the middle, it's for when they then see the opportunity to make a chance and pick out that through ball, etc. We lack in that department, we have little creativity and little composure when we get near the opponents box. All the passing in the middle is pointless if you can't then unlock their defence and we can't.

Again we play a midfield with 4 central midfielders (Green is not a winger!!), it's the 3rd season in a row we have reverted to this and the 3rd season in a row that we've started to look flat and devoid of idea's when doing so. That's not a coincidence and yet it has happened again. I think our defence is working well but we have too many workers in midfield that provide nothing going forward. If Nigel had come out and said "We're looking for a bit of creativity" then I'd think otherwise but we're looking for more strikers even though we've shipped creative players out. Our midfield look capable of retaining the ball and if we wanted a hard working team who we wanted to pass about the ball for 90 mins without every threatening the opponents goal then we are nearly there. Anyone who says "We don't have the money for creative players" well Burley found enough of them, Jim Smith found enough of them. Nobody will convince me that Nigel is working under worse conditions than Burley.

Also the "He's kept us up whilst slashing the wage bill and playing staff" That argument only works in the context of where you start from. If he had come in now, or even last season and was asked to massively slash the budget then fair enough but he came when we had a large squad and high wages. It's not like he had to move from an average budget to a bottom of the table one. Just from a high one to an average one. If Man City sacked Mancini and then said to the new manager they had to slash the wage bill in half, would anyone be singing the managers praises for keeping them in the league or even finishing mid-table? I'm not saying we were the Championship equivalent to Man City, just trying to use the extreme to illustrate a point. You need to place the budget slashing into context.

Anyway, I personally wouldn't trust Nigel to get Derby playing creative football even with a budget. I think he likes hard working solid players and that's it. I would trust another manager to get more out of our current crop and use what little money we did have better (We've sold a few of Nigel's signings already).

[Donny Ram]

The thread was about protesting against the board, I merely pointed out why I don't support this position.

Like it or not, FFP is here from next season and that is how it is.

I like a pint and a chat about the team as much as the next person but I realise that without the changes to how football is run then we face the stark reality that many clubs will not survive. The recent report on football finances show that 70% of NPC clubs are technically insolvent, so we can carry on and ignore the finances if we wish with one outcome ---- Alfreton Town on a Saturday for us all!