Palestine

[GboroRam]

8 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Every single person killed in the Dresden bombings was? Every single one of them was a genocidal murderer? None of them were innocent pacifists, or children?

It's an interesting philosophical debate to have I agree. Where does murdering innocent people in the name of "war" become justified if it stops further murders by the other side. Similar to the Trolley Car dilemma, except it's real and not theoretical and people do actually die

I was thinking something similar. I think we justify the killing of the enemy because we held the belief that they were on the "right" side of the moral argument. 

It's easier to defend killing people when they represent an aggressive, expansionist nation. One that has declared territory for themselves despite widespread opposition. 

[Comrade 86]

And they're off again, six targets bombed within an hour of the truce ending and the indiscriminate slaughter picks up pretty much where it left off. In truth, the IDF continued unabated in the West Bank throughout the truce anyway, so any hope for a lasting ceasefire was clearly wishful thinking.

Unsurprisingly, Israel has claimed Hamas attempted to fire a rocket an hour prior to the end of the truce and maybe they did. Who knows? What is clear is that there have been repeated Israeli airstrikes since 05.00 local time. I expect they're just mopping a few more 'Top Hamas Commanders'.

[PistoldPete]

13 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I was thinking something similar. I think we justify the killing of the enemy because we held the belief that they were on the "right" side of the moral argument. 

It's easier to defend killing people when they represent an aggressive, expansionist nation. One that has declared territory for themselves despite widespread opposition. 

In the case of WW2 there were various reasons for Allied actions.

1) A genuinely expansionist enemy that was attacking territories in the Baltics, all over Europe and Russia. 
 

2) An evil ideology of eugenics that mercifully was a phase that passed along with Hitler.

3) Albeit with hindsight, a war that ultimately brought peace across Western Europe for the last 80 years and hopefully forever.

But despite those justifications, if Allied forces had rounded up 1,400 German civilians and executed them in cold blood that would be murder, genocide even given all that. 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

And they're off again, six targets bombed within an hour of the truce ending and the indiscriminate slaughter picks up pretty much where it left off. In truth, the IDF continued unabated in the West Bank throughout the truce anyway, so any hope for a lasting ceasefire was clearly wishful thinking.

Unsurprisingly, Israel has claimed Hamas attempted to fire a rocket an hour prior to the end of the truce and maybe they did. Who knows? What is clear is that there have been repeated Israeli airstrikes since 05.00 local time. I expect they're just mopping a few more 'Top Hamas Commanders'.

I'm struggling to come to terms with the loss of Nobel Peace Prize winner Henry Kissinger. 

True American hero.

[Crewton]

"This isn’t some ghoulish competition, nor a zero-sum game where any empathy shown to dead Israelis somehow leaves less available for Palestinians. Collectively, our international institutions must be capable of keeping more than one wrong in mind at once. And individually, we should expect of ourselves what we ask of juries, judges and police every time they hear a rape case, which is not to unquestioningly believe every word, but to listen with compassion and an open mind. A war crime is a war crime, regardless of who committed it. And rape is rape, even when perpetrated against someone you secretly don’t want to think of as a victim."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians

[Alph]

Someone complaining about whataboutism with an argument purely based in whataboutery

And I'm antagonistic? 

Just adding "context" again eh. 

This is the thing. I've seen the videos from October 7th. Like I've actually seen them. Has anyone else out of interest? Would you like to know the gory details? Would you like me to post some stuff on here that I guarantee you'll watch once and your mind will revisit it for days, weeks and occasionally for years. 

Feck Hamas. Nobody is comparing evil to evil. Well, you are actually in this article. Ironically. Feck Hamas. Feck Hamas. Feck Hamas. 

Likewise who wants to see some videos from West Bank. You've seen the mass graves in Gaza? The dead babies? The Palestinians released from prisons, some without charge, who have been tortured? Now do you want to see some videos and pics of Settler violence? Do you want to see what happens in Jenin? Does anybody here need proof of IDF barbarity? 

No. It servers zero purpose except to join in with The Guardian nonsense and continue the tit for tat escalation that apparently is mostly down to me. 

So, let's accept Hamas are evil. I'm cool with that. Now, can we hold IDF to the same standards? Are they terrorists? If not then why not?

Then can we examine quotes by the likes of Netenyahu and Smotrich and all the other thugs? Tell me if these words carry more threat and are more antagonistic than anything some knob head has ever said on a football forum. 

And the reason I ask you to examine this is because next I'd ask again what are Israel really trying to achieve? Wipe out Hamas? Consider this approach when used in other cases. Consider that Hamas is an ideology. Consider that Hamas isn't the only organisation that threatens Israel. Consider what happens to the millions of effected Palestinians who have no security and lose their homes and loved ones

So, with that considered. Are Israel justified by their actions in Gaza and West Bank? Both? Neither? 

It often feels like this thread must have a lot of hidden posts where people are defending Hamas. Because I know I could sit here all day condemning Hamas. But if anybody actually does want peace then you have to understand them. Know why they exist. Know how to take power and influence away from them. 

Or just keep killing those who we don't agree with and give them nothing. Manifest Destiny innit

[Alph]

Just to add, before somebody says the purpose of that article is to call an end to the the blame game. Why did it go into so much detail on the horrors of the 7th? Is it suggesting people don't care? Forgot? Support Hamas? 

It's saying people "secretly" don't consider those 1,200 people victims? Hmm. 

Ironic way to call and end to the ghoulish competition and bat away the pretend argument that "where any empathy shown to dead Israelis somehow leaves less available for Palestinians"

I thought it was just me that twists and distorts opposing views? 

[Stive Pesley]

6 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

2) An evil ideology of eugenics that mercifully was a phase that passed along with Hitler.

Well, you say that - but we have (at least one) actual eugenicist on this very forum. 

[PistoldPete]

10 hours ago, Alpha said:

Someone complaining about whataboutism with an argument purely based in whataboutery

And I'm antagonistic? 

Just adding "context" again eh. 

This is the thing. I've seen the videos from October 7th. Like I've actually seen them. Has anyone else out of interest? Would you like to know the gory details? Would you like me to post some stuff on here that I guarantee you'll watch once and your mind will revisit it for days, weeks and occasionally for years. 

Feck Hamas. Nobody is comparing evil to evil. Well, you are actually in this article. Ironically. Feck Hamas. Feck Hamas. Feck Hamas. 

Likewise who wants to see some videos from West Bank. You've seen the mass graves in Gaza? The dead babies? The Palestinians released from prisons, some without charge, who have been tortured? Now do you want to see some videos and pics of Settler violence? Do you want to see what happens in Jenin? Does anybody here need proof of IDF barbarity? 

No. It servers zero purpose except to join in with The Guardian nonsense and continue the tit for tat escalation that apparently is mostly down to me. 

So, let's accept Hamas are evil. I'm cool with that. Now, can we hold IDF to the same standards? Are they terrorists? If not then why not?

Then can we examine quotes by the likes of Netenyahu and Smotrich and all the other thugs? Tell me if these words carry more threat and are more antagonistic than anything some knob head has ever said on a football forum. 

And the reason I ask you to examine this is because next I'd ask again what are Israel really trying to achieve? Wipe out Hamas? Consider this approach when used in other cases. Consider that Hamas is an ideology. Consider that Hamas isn't the only organisation that threatens Israel. Consider what happens to the millions of effected Palestinians who have no security and lose their homes and loved ones

So, with that considered. Are Israel justified by their actions in Gaza and West Bank? Both? Neither? 

It often feels like this thread must have a lot of hidden posts where people are defending Hamas. Because I know I could sit here all day condemning Hamas. But if anybody actually does want peace then you have to understand them. Know why they exist. Know how to take power and influence away from them. 

Or just keep killing those who we don't agree with and give them nothing. Manifest Destiny innit

The big problem is that you are saying the actions of Israel are comparable to Hamas. They are not . Nowhere near. If you cannot see that then yes you must be biased beyond belief. 

[PistoldPete]

7 hours ago, Alpha said:

Just to add, before somebody says the purpose of that article is to call an end to the the blame game. Why did it go into so much detail on the horrors of the 7th? Is it suggesting people don't care? Forgot? Support Hamas? 

It's saying people "secretly" don't consider those 1,200 people victims? Hmm. 

Ironic way to call and end to the ghoulish competition and bat away the pretend argument that "where any empathy shown to dead Israelis somehow leaves less available for Palestinians"

I thought it was just me that twists and distorts opposing views? 

It is true that there a lot of people who do not want to recognise that October 7 took place. When the video was shown by a Jewish businessman the showing had to be done secretly to avoid protests . Posters of the missing hostages are regularly posted in London and torn down within hours by protesters. There are a very large number of people who do not want to recognise Jews as the victims. 

[Alph]

4 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

The big problem is that you are saying the actions of Israel are comparable to Hamas. They are not . Nowhere near. If you cannot see that then yes you must be biased beyond belief. 

 

No, I didn't say that. And you know I didn't. 

But it's easier to gaslight me like that rather than answer the many questions I have about Israel. 

So I repeat. Again and again hoping at some point it will get through to you. 

I have seen the videos from October 7th. I can't put into words how disturbing they are. The very nastiest stuff you could imagine. A beheading with what looks like a trowel is a particularly detailed part. I condemn Hamas. Feck Hamas. How many times do I have to say it. I said it on page 1 and I've been saying it ever since. I don't support Hamas. 

But Palestinians are not Hamas. I'm not interested in whether it's Palestinians being burned alive in West Bank/bombed in Gaza or whether it's Jews being handed live grenades. I'm not measuring terror against terror. That was my entire issue with the article 

I'm simply accusing IDF of terrorising Palestinians in Gaza and in West Bank. Of torture, of murder, of brutality, of humiliation, of stealing etc etc. 

And I'm asking the logic of their current military campaign. Because it's severely severely flawed. And you will say 'time will tell'. And I'm saying by the time we can tell if Israel were justified or not it will be too late for thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians. We don't know how many but we do know Netenyahu said he will destroy Hamas and "nothing will stand in our way". So there's no limits for Netenyahu. Are there any for you?

[Alph]

27 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

It is true that there a lot of people who do not want to recognise that October 7 took place. When the video was shown by a Jewish businessman the showing had to be done secretly to avoid protests . Posters of the missing hostages are regularly posted in London and torn down within hours by protesters. There are a very large number of people who do not want to recognise Jews as the victims. 

I'm not one. I've seen them. 

People hate Jews. People hate Muslims. I'm not sure what more I can do to show my disgust at Hamas. I made myself sit through the footage and it's so bad. 

But no matter what I think of Hamas, I still understand why they exist. Why Palestinians support them. And why they can't be defeated like this. 

However, seeing the things I saw didn't change any of my feelings towards Israel. Not all of Israel. There's plenty in Israel who I share views with. But Netenyahu and his mob? I also see the footage of what the IDF do. And I don't have to pick between Hamas and IDF/Likud. I can be disgusted by both and call both out. My bias is with Palestinians I'm afraid. I don't see why that's a problem to anybody. They're subjected to so much suffering. 

[Highgate]

13 minutes ago, Alpha said:

And I'm asking the logic of their current military campaign. Because it's severely severely flawed.

I can't understand their logic either.   

I think anyone who thinks who thinks Hamas can be defeated like this is naive. Unless the IDF is going to wipe out everyone in Gaza, then they are just doing Hamas' recruiting for them and guaranteeing decades more violence for Palestinian and Israeli alike. Aside from the morality of the situation, I just don't understand their strategy at all.   

Maybe someone here does. 

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

The big problem is that you are saying the actions of Israel are comparable to Hamas. They are not . Nowhere near. If you cannot see that then yes you must be biased beyond belief. 

Would a Palestinian civilian see Israel's atrocities any different than an Israeli civilian sees Hamas' atrocities? Its a big statement to say the actions of Israel are not comparable to those of Hamas Pete. Just on scale alone many would think the opposite tbh.

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Would a Palestinian civilian see Israel's atrocities any different than an Israeli civilian sees Hamas' atrocities? Its a big statement to say the actions of Israel are not comparable to those of Hamas Pete. Just on scale alone many would think the opposite tbh.

The death toll from 2008-2023 seems to be roughly 20 Palestinians killed for every 1 Israeli. We'll be reaching that ratio again in this recent outburst of violence in a couple of weeks if the bombing continues.  It seems a very odd thing to overlook when making an assessment of the crimes of both sides. There can be no doubt about which side has more blood on their hands. 

 

[uttoxram75]

22 minutes ago, Highgate said:

The death toll from 2008-2023 seems to be roughly 20 Palestinians killed for every 1 Israeli. We'll be reaching that ratio again in this recent outburst of violence in a couple of weeks if the bombing continues.  It seems a very odd thing to overlook when making an assessment of the crimes of both sides. There can be no doubt about which side has more blood on their hands. 

 

It seems obvious tbh, I'm really not sure how anyone could make the case the other way.

[Comrade 86]

Really curious to understand how this 'process' in any way damages Hamas. We're repeatedly told the aim is to wipe out the terrorist group, but how does levelling huge swathes of Gaza actually achieve this aim?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67565872

[Norman]

19 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Well, you say that - but we have (at least one) actual eugenicist on this very forum. 

That's a bit of a wild claim

Edited December 2, 2023 by Norman

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Really curious to understand how this 'process' in any way damages Hamas. We're repeatedly told the aim is to wipe out the terrorist group, but how does levelling huge swathes of Gaza actually achieve this aim?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67565872

It only makes sense if the aim is to push Palestinians out of Gaza completely and force them into Sinai. That's not the stated aim though. Israel have hit 400 targets since the pause that was never a pause. 400 what? Because the Al Shifa hospital was a major command point and in the end every piece of evidence was so weak and at times laughable. Absolute nothing you could ever prove in a court. 

What's the human cost to destroy Hamas? How many Hamas are left? 

Dunno and dunno. Trust me bro. 

 

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

It only makes sense if the aim is to push Palestinians out of Gaza completely

Certainly more than defeating Hamas, that would seem to be the objective. I think the levelling of entire neighbourhoods is intended to ensure that whatever else happens, ordinary Palestinians will have no homes to return to. Reports today say that current the airstrikes and artillery fire are the most intense yet and still the West stands idly by with it's thumb up it's arse. It's maddening.