Palestine

[Ram-Alf]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

In Gaza every year they have a fund raiser for Doncaster. 

The day humour dies is the day I'll become a Monk and open a Monastery in Donny 😇

[Mostyn6]

9 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Maybe because the false narrative being peddled in the media incites the hostile states against them. I agree though the BBC is the least of the culprits. Social media ahem is far worse. 

almost every mainstream media outlet is "peddling" out a narrative of Israel as innocent victims and not differentiating Hamas from Palestinian people. Almost every story being told is about support for Israel. So I don't align with your statement.

My point is that Israel is supposedly "at war", why is it worrying about something so trivial in the grand scheme of things. Any "hostile" states are hostile cos of previous conflict, not cos of BBC! (or other media)

[Tamworthram]

32 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

This to me kind of typifies things and why I have a mistrust for Israel. In the midst of what it's calling a severe attack etc and when they're supposedly being subjected to the worst acts known to man, their President is more concerned about a legal battle to ensure the optics are right.

I ask onlookers, is this the kind of priority a country under attack should have? Or is it the a country more concerned with using Smoke and Mirrors to hide it's true objective? 

 

In an interview with the Daily Mail, Isaac Herzog asked what else the BBC needed “in order for them to admit that we are dealing with the worst terrorist organisation in the world?”.

Mr Herzog told the paper: “I feel the BBC’s reporting is atrocious.

“The fact that it does not recognise Hamas as a terror organisation requires a complete legal battle and public battle. It’s unbelievable.

But that’s not all he said is it? We’re as bad as the Daily Mail (not like them to emphasise one element of an interview to have a snipe at the BBC 😀) if we extract one small portion in order to distort an interview.

To note, I am not defending either side in this conflict (I’ve said before, there don’t seem to me any good guys - just villains and innocent victims) and certainly not Israel’s past treatment of the people of Palestine or their current response but if the Israeli president, as part of an interview, criticised the BBC for their reporting then I hardly think this is greatest crime committed in the appalling situation.

Propaganda in war is hardly a new phenomenon.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Tamworthram

[Day]

24 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Of course we would want that. I think the reason that isn’t done is sending in ground troops to take terrorists out in hostile territory puts soldiers in harms way , sitting ducks. 
 

Any country would want to minimise deaths of its own citizens . 

Harms way? Sitting ducks? Is that not what the civilians are with rockets raining down?

Soldiers are trained for combat, that is literally their job. 

As I say, the response doesn't have to be immediate, satellite images, drones, people on the ground gathering intelligence, minimising casualties should always be the answer. 

[Alph]

Supposedly Israel has a knock on the door system or something it's called.

So they announce where they'll strike, then they drop some sort of dummy war head on a building that does minimal damage. Then they destroy it. 

I mean, that system I don't doubt exists but I seriously doubt they follow it. 

They have struck 24(?) Hospitals I think. Where they believe Hamas to have bases. But even if you gave these places 24 hours notice then what are the hospitals meant to do with that information? That's the sick part. 

Ok, Hamas are obviously going to have bases in or under such places. But they're in the group of people fit enough to evacuate. 

Their response makes no sense. They're driving people into support for extremist groups. More and more people question the legitimacy of Israel in its entirety right from the beginning! 

It's also putting Jordan, Iran, Egypt etc in a position where although the governments of Jordan and Egypt are... er.... not directly hostile(fair?). They are under more pressure from their population. Iran, well, we know what Israel would face if Iran was the major military power in the region. 

[Mostyn6]

38 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

But that’s not all he said is it? We’re as bad as the Daily Mail (not like them to emphasise one element of an interview to have a snipe at the BBC 😀) if we extract one small portion in order to distort an interview.

To note, I am not defending either side in this conflict (I’ve said before, there don’t seem to me any good guys - just villains and innocent victims) and certainly not Israel’s past treatment of the people of Palestine or their current response but if the Israeli president, as part of an interview, criticised the BBC for their reporting then I hardly think this is greatest crime committed in the appalling situation.

Propaganda in war is hardly a new phenomenon.

In the article I'm quoting (Evening Standard), he also goes on about a Handbook that supposedly tells soldiers to raid villages and torture whoever is there. But the comment about a legal challenge to BBC is enlightening to me.

[Alph]

I know it's Piers Morgan and I know it goes against human instinct to click it but this was the best interview.

 

Some have probably seen it but I ignored because of that absolute tool. Until a friend said it's worth it

[Tamworthram]

13 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

In the article I'm quoting (Evening Standard), he also goes on about a Handbook that supposedly tells soldiers to raid villages and torture whoever is there. But the comment about a legal challenge to BBC is enlightening to me.

Do you not think his comments about the BBC (and the alleged handbook) is just propaganda and an attempt to secure support for the Israeli cause and action? As I say, propaganda is nothing new in war and I can’t help but think you’re overreacting to his comments about the BBC. They are a long way from being the most important thing being said and done by both sides. Enlightening? No. Surprising? Possibly,  unless he was specifically asked about the BBC. I suspect talk about a legal challenge was nothing more than rhetoric. 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

almost every mainstream media outlet is "peddling" out a narrative of Israel as innocent victims and not differentiating Hamas from Palestinian people. Almost every story being told is about support for Israel. So I don't align with your statement.

My point is that Israel is supposedly "at war", why is it worrying about something so trivial in the grand scheme of things. Any "hostile" states are hostile cos of previous conflict, not cos of BBC! (or other media)

That isn’t true. Egypt had made peace with Israel. But the lies being told now throughout all media risk inflaming the situation . 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, David said:

Harms way? Sitting ducks? Is that not what the civilians are with rockets raining down?

Soldiers are trained for combat, that is literally their job. 

As I say, the response doesn't have to be immediate, satellite images, drones, people on the ground gathering intelligence, minimising casualties should always be the answer. 

I agree with everything you say David. It is also the job of every Government to protect the lives of their own citizens. Someone on this forum has said Israel should do nothing in response . In reality there is no democratic Government anywhere in the world that would ever get reelected if they literally did nothing in response to such atrocities. 

[Alph]

47 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I know it's Piers Morgan and I know it goes against human instinct to click it but this was the best interview.

 

Some have probably seen it but I ignored because of that absolute tool. Until a friend said it's worth it

Feel quite inspired by this interview actually. 

I think Israel should continue to hunt for Hamas in the West Bank...

Then also, when all this is over and the temporary settlements exist for Palestinians while Gaza prison is rebuilt we can finally have peace in the region. Palestinians will be treated as well as they are in West Bank and they'll finally be nobody to stand in Israel's way of creating a utopia. 

It's like manifest destiny. Wonder where the idea came from

[Day]

30 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I agree with everything you say David. It is also the job of every Government to protect the lives of their own citizens. Someone on this forum has said Israel should do nothing in response . In reality there is no democratic Government anywhere in the world that would ever get reelected if they literally did nothing in response to such atrocities. 

Yeah I don't agree with doing nothing, just think that @Alpha nailed it earlier, all the current tactics will do is push more towards the extremists views.

Imagine a father, a son, having seen his whole family wiped out. The response will unlikely be a shrug of the shoulders, well that's the cost of war, we were unlucky right.

They will want revenge against Israel as a country, eye for an eye.

Remove Hamas, protect all civilians. That has to be the play here.

[Alph]

31 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I agree with everything you say David. It is also the job of every Government to protect the lives of their own citizens. Someone on this forum has said Israel should do nothing in response . In reality there is no democratic Government anywhere in the world that would ever get reelected if they literally did nothing in response to such atrocities. 

What's your opinion on Russia's invasion of Ukraine? 

Please consider Putin's reasons for the invasion. To secure Russia's future against NATO expansion (they can not afford to lose Ukraine to the West. It would leave them massively vulnerable)

And to eliminate neo nazi groups such as the Azov Brigade (and you can search their horrific crimes online) and other extremist groups/terrorists and branches of Ukrainian military from East Ukraine. 

My personal stance in that thread was that Putin's concerns are not fairytales made up in the Kremlin as the western media successfully narrated. However the reaction, the invasion, the huge loss of civilian life, the extreme damage to infrastructure was a horrific war crime 

We're talking state terrorism. We're talking total disregard for civilian life. 

I just want to be clear about what level of threat justified a disproportionate response. 

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

In an interview with the Daily Mail, Isaac Herzog asked what else the BBC needed “in order for them to admit that we are dealing with the worst terrorist organisation in the world?”.

Mr Herzog told the paper: “I feel the BBC’s reporting is atrocious.

“The fact that it does not recognise Hamas as a terror organisation requires a complete legal battle and public battle. It’s unbelievable.

The BBC have adequately defended their open decision to not call Hamas a terrorist organisation IMO

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67076341

Quote

A BBC spokesperson noted it was a long-standing position for its reporters not to use the term themselves unless attributing it to someone else.

We all bemoan BBC bias when we see it, but in this instance - surely it's right. As the old saying goes - "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". If the BBC started to routinely call Hamas terrorists then that would be a case of them taking sides. Wouldn't we all much rather have an impartial national news broadcaster ?

And as for the Daily Mail...well

 

 

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Yeah I don't agree with doing nothing, just think that @Alpha nailed it earlier, all the current tactics will do is push more towards the extremists views.

Imagine a father, a son, having seen his whole family wiped out. The response will unlikely be a shrug of the shoulders, well that's the cost of war, we were unlucky right.

They will want revenge against Israel as a country, eye for an eye.

Remove Hamas, protect all civilians. That has to be the play here.

What I will say in defence of Israel.... urgh.... Is that plenty Palestinians in Gaza do consider Hamas to be their only chance. They believe an apartheid is being carried out by Israel and if it's life under Hamas or an Israeli puppet government then I think, obviously I don't know, that they would support Hamas. 

So it's very complex for Palestinians. They can excuse the worst of Hamas as propaganda or even accept that this is just a world wide fact of guerilla warfare when a small military power fights a large one. 

Israel, it's own existence was forged using terrorism. We see it all the time that to make change against a government or to apply pressure on a government you have to terrorise them. Open warfare is not an option

We can go back to the bombings by Israeli militants on the British to fight for freedom. Now it seems a noble fight for Jews? I dunno 

But in the grand scheme I think some/many Palestinians will say Hamas is the only protection against Israeli apartheid 

[Alph]

Just to add. That's why much of the world is/was so reluctant to label Hamas terrorists. 

[PistoldPete]

14 minutes ago, David said:

Yeah I don't agree with doing nothing, just think that @Alpha nailed it earlier, all the current tactics will do is push more towards the extremists views.

Imagine a father, a son, having seen his whole family wiped out. The response will unlikely be a shrug of the shoulders, well that's the cost of war, we were unlucky right.

They will want revenge against Israel as a country, eye for an eye.

Remove Hamas, protect all civilians. That has to be the play here.

In reality there is no conflict in history that has involved no civilian  casualties. Even the Falklands which is mostly populated by penguins had civilian casualties. 
 

but yes the risk of escalation is a real one for sure. 

[PistoldPete]

21 minutes ago, Alpha said:

What's your opinion on Russia's invasion of Ukraine? 

Please consider Putin's reasons for the invasion. To secure Russia's future against NATO expansion (they can not afford to lose Ukraine to the West. It would leave them massively vulnerable)

And to eliminate neo nazi groups such as the Azov Brigade (and you can search their horrific crimes online) and other extremist groups/terrorists and branches of Ukrainian military from East Ukraine. 

My personal stance in that thread was that Putin's concerns are not fairytales made up in the Kremlin as the western media successfully narrated. However the reaction, the invasion, the huge loss of civilian life, the extreme damage to infrastructure was a horrific war crime 

We're talking state terrorism. We're talking total disregard for civilian life. 

I just want to be clear about what level of threat justified a disproportionate response. 

When has NATO ever attacked Russia? When has it ever committed atrocities such as those by Hamas? I don’t think any suggestion that Russia is acting in self defence has any credibility. 
 

[DerbysLane]

52 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

In reality there is no democratic Government anywhere in the world that would ever get reelected if they literally did nothing in response to such atrocities. 

Not true.  After Pan Am flight 103 exploded the UK re-elected the Tory government and the USA re-elected a Republican president.  I was only a child at the time, but I don't recall us bombing the crap out of Libya to 'defend ourselves'.

When I say do nothing I mean take no military action.

[Day]

13 minutes ago, Alpha said:

What I will say in defence of Israel.... urgh.... Is that plenty Palestinians in Gaza do consider Hamas to be their only chance. They believe an apartheid is being carried out by Israel and if it's life under Hamas or an Israeli puppet government then I think, obviously I don't know, that they would support Hamas. 

So it's very complex for Palestinians. They can excuse the worst of Hamas as propaganda or even accept that this is just a world wide fact of guerilla warfare when a small military power fights a large one. 

Israel, it's own existence was forged using terrorism. We see it all the time that to make change against a government or to apply pressure on a government you have to terrorise them. Open warfare is not an option

We can go back to the bombings by Israeli militants on the British to fight for freedom. Now it seems a noble fight for Jews? I dunno 

But in the grand scheme I think some/many Palestinians will say Hamas is the only protection against Israeli apartheid 

I'll be honest, yourself and others are more clued up on this than I am, for many years I chose to avoid the news and think everything in the world is honky dory, let's just play football and chase girls. It's only with the growth of social media and my own age I see more, try and understand, yet end up hating the world we live in.

Why any country needs to build rockets, nukes, warships etc. is beyond me when it's millions, billions out of the economy whilst we all graft to keep the heating on and food in our stomachs.

At what point can these control freaks just be happy with their land borders and live in peace respecting others?

It's mental.

I don't know how much support there is on the ground for Hamas from Palestinians, it's impossible for me to gauge, I would guess there is a significant amount support as it's their only defence for the slice of land they have. 

What Israel should avoid doing is turning that peaceful civilian flag waving support into armed active fighters, which will surely happen as Gaza is flattened and the loss of lives mount up.