How good is our squad?

[CongletonRam]

1 minute ago, TheRamOfSwad said:

I think we all need to take a step back, let's get the feel good factor of the club back. It seems like during the hard times with the points deduction we focused on backing the lads and the manager

At the end of the day dont matter what you've done in the past, it's about grouping together the lads who want it most and finding a way to win

Having a bigger wage bill doesn't necessarily mean anything, in life some people are paid more, some less depending on how old they are and how they sell themselves.

What actually matters is how they gel on the pitch and names on paper never reflect how a group of players will perform. Good example of this is players like Ji-Sung-Park or Sergio busquets... don't set the world on fire but fundamental to the teams being successful working for the manager

Let's get behind the lads and give them the confidence, I think they are low and if any of them read this forum I would feel like I wasn't valued. 

The game against Cambridge when mendez got the ball at the half way like with the whole pitch ahead of him... he looked spooked once the crowd realised he is the fastest player on the pitch through on goal with a sprint. You could tell he was gonna fluff it, these players feel the pressure at pride park... I dunno I could be wrong.. does anyone else see it like that? I think that's why the performances have been lacking at home, I think they feel the weight and of the fans expectations. they are normal humans and I'm sure they read comments from the Internet 

Anyway,  Up the Rams! 🐏 

Spot on.

The fans can make a massive difference by fully getting behind and supporting the players.

I just question as to whether some fans have unrealistic expectations based on the players we have available.

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

Probably because they have the opportunity to play at a higher level.

So we are left with a division with league 1 players in it?

So are our average players better than their players? YES. Why aren't we doing better then?

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, CongletonRam said:

Agreed, and those players have done ok. If we were sitting in the bottom few, then maybe those fans may have a point but we're not.

Very few of those players have actually played a significant part so far.

Percentage of minutes played by new signings:
Nelson: 100%
Waghorn: 56%
Fornah: 46%
Nyambe: 36%
Washington: 33%
Bradley: 33%
Wilson: 26%
Ward: 20%
Elder: 20%
Embleton: 5%
Vickers: 4%
John-Jules: 3%

[valakari]

Players and management are paid well to do a job.

If they aren't capable of succeeding in their chosen vocation, i suggest we shouldn't be employing them!

No team in Div 1 has world class players, but a good manager puts together a good team and gets results...eg Ipswich & Plymouth last season

 

[duncanjwitham]

Maybe it's just me, but if a player plays a bunch of games at League One level, then steps up and plays a bunch of games at Championship level, then steps up and plays a bunch at Prem level, that makes the player a Prem player.  Not a player who's spent most of his career in the lower leagues 🤷‍♂️.

[CongletonRam]

1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said:

Maybe it's just me, but if a player plays a bunch of games at League One level, then steps up and plays a bunch of games at Championship level, then steps up and plays a bunch at Prem level, that makes the player a Prem player.  Not a player who's spent most of his career in the lower leagues 🤷‍♂️.

I'm not denying that. I have dealt in stats and if 'said player' has played 300 games in league One and 100 games at a higher level; the fact remains that that player has played the larger part of his career at a lower level.

 

[CongletonRam]

6 minutes ago, valakari said:

Players and management are paid well to do a job.

If they aren't capable of succeeding in their chosen vocation, i suggest we shouldn't be employing them!

No team in Div 1 has world class players, but a good manager puts together a good team and gets results...eg Ipswich & Plymouth last season

 

Yes, I agree. We are currently sitting comfortably in the table but why are some fans asking for the managers head?

Are things really that bad?

[Blondest Goat]

7 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Maybe it's just me, but if a player plays a bunch of games at League One level, then steps up and plays a bunch of games at Championship level, then steps up and plays a bunch at Prem level, that makes the player a Prem player.  Not a player who's spent most of his career in the lower leagues 🤷‍♂️.

Exactly this.   The concept of career progression is completely lost on the original poster.  I hope for his sake he is just trolling.

[BaianoPOTY98]

To me that says the player is improving and has now got to prem league standard, no?

[Blondest Goat]

6 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

I'm not denying that. I have dealt in stats and if 'said player' has played 300 games in league One and 100 games at a higher level; the fact remains that that player has played the larger part of his career at a lower level.

 

Yea and then going on to say it proves they aren't good enough.

[TheHomunculusLives]

Other than maybe one or two of the remaining homegrown youngsters, I think what we maybe lack is players who could feasibly develop into top end Championship or Premier League standard. We should expect to be very competitive at League One level, but if we go up I think we will need to invest significantly.

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

I'm not denying that. I have dealt in stats and if 'said player' has played 300 games in league One and 100 games at a higher level; the fact remains that that player has played the larger part of his career at a lower level.

 

Alan Shearer and Thierry Henry failed to score in the majority of their games. They scored some goals obviously, but the fact remains, they spent the larger part of their games not scoring goals.

Alan Ferguson failed to win the league the majority of the time.  He won it a few times of course, but the fact remains he spent the larger part of his managerial career not winning the league.

Do I need to go on?

[hintonsboots]

17 minutes ago, valakari said:

Players and management are paid well to do a job.

If they aren't capable of succeeding in their chosen vocation, i suggest we shouldn't be employing them!

No team in Div 1 has world class players, but a good manager puts together a good team and gets results...eg Ipswich & Plymouth last season

 

Also much of their success was down to quality loan signings. We have loans but usually injured.

[CongletonRam]

8 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Yea and then going on to say it proves they aren't good enough.

When have I said they are not good enough?

I have said they are average.

[CongletonRam]

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Alan Shearer and Thierry Henry failed to score in the majority of their games. They scored some goals obviously, but the fact remains, they spent the larger part of their games not scoring goals.

Alan Ferguson failed to win the league the majority of the time.  He won it a few times of course, but the fact remains he spent the larger part of his managerial career not winning the league.

Do I need to go on?

 

Sorry, but I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

18 of our squad has played the majority of their career games at League One level or below. What is incorrect about that statistic?

What that statistic suggests is that maybe just maybe a certain section of our fanbase, in particular those calling for Warne's head, maybe have unrealistic expectations.

Edited October 13, 2023 by CongletonRam

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, TheHomunculusLives said:

Other than maybe one or two of the remaining homegrown youngsters, I think what we maybe lack is players who could feasibly develop into top end Championship or Premier League standard. We should expect to be very competitive at League One level, but if we go up I think we will need to invest significantly.

The logic is that we would require a high turnover of players no matter which division we're in.
Failure to go up = some players are not good enough for Warne's system, whilst others are too good and will move on anyway
Promotion = L1 quality players aren't good enough for the Championship so need replacing.

Based on the evidence so far, I don't think recruitment in the summer was as good as our management team first thought. For example, you would hope someone on a 2+ year contract in a L1 side challenging for automatic promotion would be a starter in L1 and squad player (or better) in the Championship. However, Bradley, Elder, and Washington have so far failed to show they're better than their competition (Cashin, Forsyth and Waghorn)

[May Contain Nuts]

22 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

When have I said they are not good enough?

I have said they are average.

You haven't just said they're average though.

You've said:

"If any other clubs had our squad, you would look at it, laugh and ridicule them for having a team full of average players"

So our players are laughably average, which is rather more extreme. You do our players a massive disservice.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

 

Sorry, but I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

18 of our squad has played the majority of their career games at League One level or below. What is incorrect about that statistic?

What that statistic suggests is that maybe just maybe a certain section of our fanbase, in particular those calling for Warne's head, maybe have unrealistic expectations.

The point I'm making, is that you're just quoting raw numbers without any context.  I'm not denying that your numbers are correct in terms of the maths being done right, but the meaning you're trying to extract from those numbers is somewhere between nonsense and irrelevant.  My statistic about Henry is absolutely correct numerically, because in the majority of games he played he failed to score a single goal.  But it's also complete nonsense semantically, because he was a massively prolific goal-scorer.

If a player has played 300 games at Championship level, he is clearly a player capable of playing at Championship level.  The fact he might also have played 400 games at League One level doesn't diminish that fact.  Your error is compounded because the majority of players you are talking about have shown a clear career progression - i.e. going up the leagues as they get older, continue to improve and demonstrate their ability, then maybe drop back down as they go past their peak.  That is exactly the pattern we'd expect to see with many players.  If we were talking about players who had spent the majority of their career alternating between e.g. League One and Championship, then maybe you'd have a case that they were struggling to make the step up to the higher level, but that isn't really the case with any of our players (AFAIK).

[Jubbs]

Surely he's just trolling, right????

[Ghost of Clough]

31 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The point I'm making, is that you're just quoting raw numbers without any context.  I'm not denying that your numbers are correct in terms of the maths being done right, but the meaning you're trying to extract from those numbers is somewhere between nonsense and irrelevant.  My statistic about Henry is absolutely correct numerically, because in the majority of games he played he failed to score a single goal.  But it's also complete nonsense semantically, because he was a massively prolific goal-scorer.

If a player has played 300 games at Championship level, he is clearly a player capable of playing at Championship level.  The fact he might also have played 400 games at League One level doesn't diminish that fact.  Your error is compounded because the majority of players you are talking about have shown a clear career progression - i.e. going up the leagues as they get older, continue to improve and demonstrate their ability, then maybe drop back down as they go past their peak.  That is exactly the pattern we'd expect to see with many players.  If we were talking about players who had spent the majority of their career alternating between e.g. League One and Championship, then maybe you'd have a case that they were struggling to make the step up to the higher level, but that isn't really the case with any of our players (AFAIK).

You could perhaps argue it with Ward who at Peterborough, was promoted, relegated, then failed to go back up, and Elder at Hull where he was relegated, promoted, then stayed in the Championship