Ocean Temperature (strictly apolitical)

[Van der MoodHoover]

Seems to me that over population together with a global economic system that societally rewards and hence encorages over consumption, are the main forces to overcome.

1bn additional people on planet earth in the last decade. That's a lot of people all needing and expecting SOME resources...

[TigerTedd]

3 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Seems to me that over population together with a global economic system that societally rewards and hence encorages over consumption, are the main forces to overcome.

1bn additional people on planet earth in the last decade. That's a lot of people all needing and expecting SOME resources...

So what’s the answer to that one?

i quite liked the Dan Brown solution, of half the world being randomly sterilised.

It’s a really difficult truth to face, but if we keep going at this rate, we’ll have 10bn people in another 10 years and just keep going. 

made to that land masses shrinking with water levels rising, more parts of the world becoming unlivable with rising temperatures.

more people trying to share less space and resources. Somethings got to give eventually. 

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, TigerTedd said:

So what’s the answer to that one?

i quite liked the Dan Brown solution, of half the world being randomly sterilised.

It’s a really difficult truth to face, but if we keep going at this rate, we’ll have 10bn people in another 10 years and just keep going. 

made to that land masses shrinking with water levels rising, more parts of the world becoming unlivable with rising temperatures.

more people trying to share less space and resources. Somethings got to give eventually. 

It won't quite keep going though....it should peak at around 11bn before the end of the century and then start reducing gradually.  That's what the demographic models say anyway. 

Still,  a population of 11bn will put an awful lot of extra pressure on our planet's finite resources.  Part of the problem is that the consumerism that is great for our economies is really detrimental to our environment.  

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Seems to me that over population together with a global economic system that societally rewards and hence encorages over consumption, are the main forces to overcome.

1bn additional people on planet earth in the last decade. That's a lot of people all needing and expecting SOME resources...

Yep and now governments and corporates are using , fear mongering , taxes and laws to drive massive new over consumption of stuff that is no better for the planet when fully measured against manufacturing and throwing away what we have , doesn’t even work properly, is just as finite and costs a fortune ,

create fear in people , we are all going to die ,the worlds going to end and only doing what we say can save you , notice a recurring theme ? Jeez Canary Wharf was meant to be under water 20 years ago with the Thames barrier obsolete ,,, 

you couldn’t make this poo up😂

[Archied]

7 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Seems to me that over population together with a global economic system that societally rewards and hence encorages over consumption, are the main forces to overcome.

1bn additional people on planet earth in the last decade. That's a lot of people all needing and expecting SOME resources...

Yep and now governments and corporates are using , fear mongering , taxes and laws to drive massive new over consumption of stuff that is no better for the planet when fully measured against manufacturing and throwing away what we have , doesn’t even work properly, is just as finite and costs a fortune ,

create fear in people , we are all going to die ,the worlds going to end and only doing what we say can save you , notice a recurring theme ? Jeez Canary Wharf was meant to be under water 20 years ago with the Thames barrier obsolete ,,, 

you couldn’t make this poo up😂

[Archied]

3 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

So what’s the answer to that one?

i quite liked the Dan Brown solution, of half the world being randomly sterilised.

It’s a really difficult truth to face, but if we keep going at this rate, we’ll have 10bn people in another 10 years and just keep going. 

made to that land masses shrinking with water levels rising, more parts of the world becoming unlivable with rising temperatures.

more people trying to share less space and resources. Somethings got to give eventually. 

Actually birth / population replacement number have fallen through the floor in the west , hence immigration being so popular with our ruling classes ,,, who’s gonna pay the pensions and fuel the economy 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Archied

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

It won't quite keep going though....it should peak at around 11bn before the end of the century and then start reducing gradually.  That's what the demographic models say anyway. 

Still,  a population of 11bn will put an awful lot of extra pressure on our planet's finite resources.  Part of the problem is that the consumerism that is great for our economies is really detrimental to our environment.  

Yep and we are seeing massive forced consumerism just as people were really starting to grasp real green policies and what was actually needed , I know by your posts and some of our interactions that unlike some you are able to grasp some of where I’m coming from and wrestle with some of the contradictions that we see all around us if we are willing to open our minds beyond ideological black and white doctrines ,

unless I’ve got you totally wrong 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited September 9, 2023 by Archied

[Archied]

Actually what we are experiencing is the economic model of the world imploding rather than the planet exploding , let alone the conundrum of de carbonisation of the developing world , India is already up in arms about where all the promised billions have gone 

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Actually birth / population replacement number have fallen through the floor in the west , hence immigration being so popular with our ruling classes ,,, who’s gonna pay the pensions and fuel the economy 

Strong statistical correlation between levels of fertility/fecundity and levels of education.

I make no moral judgement, just note it.

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Strong statistical correlation between levels of fertility/fecundity and levels of education.

I make no moral judgement, just note it.

No , your right , the developed world has massively changed in so many ways over a short period of time , education, relative lack of poverty against the undeveloped countries , lifestyle, life opportunities and choices , the welfare state , free at point of use health service and dare I say over anxiety about bringing children into a world we are constantly and have been for may years telling our young the world is going to end , humans had big families because of child mortality and family care for the elderly, it meant more security, where that leaves us is a big disconnect between the public and politicians/ corporates and the established monied over immigration, we have an aging population which is not being replaced at the rate needed to pay for pensions , health and social care ect ect ect , the mantra from on high of growth growth growth as being the answer never alters despite it being clear to anyone with a brain cell that you cannot grow grow grow forever on a planet that stays the same size with finite minerals and raw materials ,

as I say , I believe a massive part of this net zero / clean air stuff is driven more for economic reasons under the cover of saving the planet and made easier to push by creating fear and anxiety in people , mainly our young who often when you hear them speak have no grasp of basic green truths ,

I probably waste my time banging on on here about my view of our current situation but duck it , somebody has to try to give a different perspective or else it’s just an echo chamber with nothing ever questioned 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Archied

[Van der MoodHoover]

53 minutes ago, Archied said:

No , your right , the developed world has massively changed in so many ways over a short period of time , education, relative lack of poverty against the undeveloped countries , lifestyle, life opportunities and choices , the welfare state , free at point of use health service and dare I say over anxiety about bringing children into a world we are constantly and have been for may years telling our young the world is going to end , humans had big families because of child mortality and family care for the elderly, it meant more security, where that leaves us is a big disconnect between the public and politicians/ corporates and the established monied over immigration, we have an aging population which is not being replaced at the rate needed to pay for pensions , health and social care ect ect ect , the mantra from on high of growth growth growth as being the answer never alters despite it being clear to anyone with a brain cell that you cannot grow grow grow forever on a planet that stays the same size with finite minerals and raw materials ,

as I say , I believe a massive part of this net zero / clean air stuff is driven more for economic reasons under the cover of saving the planet and made easier to push by creating fear and anxiety in people , mainly our young who often when you hear them speak have no grasp of basic green truths ,

I probably waste my time banging on on here about my view of our current situation but duck it , somebody has to try to give a different perspective or else it’s just an echo chamber with nothing ever questioned 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

We should all welcome plurality of argument. Sometimes each of us vents....I include myself. Maybe frustration as we feel others just don't get our points, sometimes over emotion. Whatever.

 

The points about those in power manipulating those of us without are interesting, genuinely. Reminds me of the book The Establishment.

There are really questions to be asked I think. Perhaps we need an extinction event from the top down to enable a full reset.

[TigerTedd]

59 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

We should all welcome plurality of argument. Sometimes each of us vents....I include myself. Maybe frustration as we feel others just don't get our points, sometimes over emotion. Whatever.

 

The points about those in power manipulating those of us without are interesting, genuinely. Reminds me of the book The Establishment.

There are really questions to be asked I think. Perhaps we need an extinction event from the top down to enable a full reset.

That’s my concern. That nothing will really change until there’s a major event. I mean we had a global pandemic and not much changed. We’ll keep doing what we’re doing until something significant forces us to change. 

It’s not that I think the world is going to end in the near future, but I am genuinely concerned that some sort of major, earth shaking event is on the horizon. We can’t go on like this, I’ve never really understood what a zero sum game is, but would this be an appropriate time to use that phrase? It sounds right. It’s unsustainable anyway, and we just keep kicking the can down the road, knowing full well that it’s unsustainable, hoping someone else will fix it eventually.

the first people who used coal have a lot to answer. Why use a resource that you know is finite, and not immediately start working on its replacement. By doing that, you are actively saying ‘it’s not our problem, that’s a problem our great grand kids can solve.’

All good sci-fi utopias went through some sort of significant event to get there. Star Trek is a peaceful paradise of tolerance and cooperation. But even they went though a nuclear war (in that timeline) before they developed warp drive. I had hoped we might get a vision of where we’d like to be, and we’d strive to get there without the need for a world changing event. But I can’t see how it’s going to happen. It would take global cooperation that were just not capable of. Maybe ozymandias had the right idea. 

[Highgate]

5 hours ago, Archied said:

Yep and we are seeing massive forced consumerism just as people were really starting to grasp real green policies and what was actually needed , I know by your posts and some of our interactions that unlike some you are able to grasp some of where I’m coming from and wrestle with some of the contradictions that we see all around us if we are willing to open our minds beyond ideological black and white doctrines ,

unless I’ve got you totally wrong 🤷🏻‍♂️

I agree with your point that consumerism is at the heart of a lot of environmental problems. And indeed that there are those who will use our current climate problems/crisis (whatever you want to call it) as an opportunity to make more money.  I fear that's always going to be the case no matter what situation we find ourselves in. However, exploiting climate change is not the  'green agenda' as it were, it's just people using green issues as a fig leaf for their own motives. The environmentalist mantra was always, 'recycle, reuse and reduce', which is about as anti-consumerist as you can get. If an environmentalist wants people, when the time comes to replace something like a car for instance, to choose the eco-friendly or sustainable option, then that's not encouraging consumption but rather advocating sustainability.

There are a lot of grey areas and room for debate about how to tackle our environmental issues with the least pain (or preferably no pain at all) for the most vulnerable people in society.  I certainly don't claim to have all the answers in that regard. 

What does seem to be black and white though, is the scientific data itself.  Atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases are rapidly increasing, and ocean and air temperatures are rising. There is no arguing with these data points. The data itself along with what we know about atmospheric physics leads to the inescapable conclusion if we don't act rapidly then temperatures and sea-levels will rise considerably. About this, there no longer is any room for debate. 

[MaltRam]

16 minutes ago, Highgate said:

About this, there no longer is any room for debate. 

Hasn't been for 20 years.

Once the science is understood, everything else becomes simple.

Then you get cartoonish responses to this, and there are many of them. It makes me fairly certain we're doomed as a civilisation. People aren't smart enough en masse to grasp it.

Edited September 9, 2023 by MaltRam

[Highgate]

37 minutes ago, MaltRam said:

Hasn't been for 20 years.

Once the science is understood, everything else becomes simple.

Then you get cartoonish responses to this, and there are many of them. It makes me fairly certain we're doomed as a civilisation. People aren't smart enough en masse to grasp it.

I couldn't agree more.  

On being doomed as a civilisation, I'm still hoping it won't come to that.  

[Archied]

7 hours ago, Highgate said:

I couldn't agree more.  

On being doomed as a civilisation, I'm still hoping it won't come to that.  

That’s a hard one to have much hope about when you look at what’s happening in Ukraine unless we develop carbon neutral warfare (and I don’t see any concern over that ) mass death and destruction which as predicted will go on for years with not a mention of finding peace , both sides being helped to be armed by the usual suspects and you just know that deep down it’s all about the struggle for economic dominance and control of minerals , resources and they’re distribution, with China and the west one shot away from the same poo in other areas of the world , for me that’s the main area of concern and anything else including climate crisis if it really is a thing will carry on until it can’t be ignored, taxing the less well off and making they’re lives more miserable in the U.K. is just money and control when you even take the slightest glimpse at the big picture and though this thread and issue is not ALL about ulez expansion it’s a clear snapshot of everything that’s wrong with the lies , fear mongering and manipulation going on , khan like many in his position around the country have ducked up the budget and want to use a fake cloak of virtue to get out of jail and only a fool would applaud and defend him ( cue @stivepesley laughing imogi )

are we really any more civilised than a thousand years ago ,,, im not so sure we are 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited September 10, 2023 by Archied

[dog]

Is part of the issue that measurement using degrees is quite clumsy? Difference between 27 and 28 degrees looks very small,  IE 'one'; whereas using a system that shows the difference as a larger number might make some of us a little more aware. Dunno. 

[Archied]

38 minutes ago, dog said:

Is part of the issue that measurement using degrees is quite clumsy? Difference between 27 and 28 degrees looks very small,  IE 'one'; whereas using a system that shows the difference as a larger number might make some of us a little more aware. Dunno. 

One of the main areas of contention is around measuring technique s, where and when measured , criteria used for measuring and comparing data over how long 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

Thank god @Stive Pesley. Has no interest in the football area s of this forum or I would be swamped with laugh imogi s 😂

[Grumpy Git]

13 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

There are really questions to be asked I think. Perhaps we need an extinction event from the top down to enable a full reset.

Let's be honest here, a very large majority of those who sit on the green benches in the HoC could be 'wiped-out' and no one would notice any difference.