Academy thread 23/24

[Ghost of Clough]

Possible names in the first team squad tonight therefore being: Evans, Moore, Cox, Fapetu, Allen, Davidson (injured?), Weston

[angieram]

21 minutes ago, Banksy said:

Huddersfield B 0 Derby County 7

Scorers McAndrew 2, Ogontulu 2, Gibson-Hammond, Bartley, Wheeldon.

Boys done well again.

COYR

COYR

Thank you! 

[Magicman]

Expect Robinson Cox Fapetu Weston & Allen to be in tonights squad. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Possible names in the first team squad tonight therefore being: Evans, Moore, Cox, Fapetu, Allen, Davidson (injured?), Weston

Evans playing for Barwell as loan extended for another month. I think you spot on with the others

[Jubbs]

23 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Allen

I think he's with Wales U17

[ramit]

I am impressed with how quickly the academy is taking shape again.  Some quality work being done there, for sure.

[Banksy]

3 hours ago, ramit said:

I am impressed with how quickly the academy is taking shape again.  Some quality work being done there, for sure.

The work undertaken by Craig Fleming in defining a compatible style of play for the academy and the first team is beginning to take place. Hence the recent restructuring of the U21 squad where some U18 players have been moved up as they have been identified as potentially having a longer term future in the advancement of the club. This is fundamental to the owner's vision that the academy has to be sustained and progressed as it is key to a brighter future for the whole club. What we are seeing presently is the first green shoots in the rebuild from the damage caused by administration. The people brought in to direct the academy have been carefully selected and come from proven backgrounds. So hopefully the quality you refer to will be recognised sooner rather than later as the restructure progresses.

[RoyMac5]

11 hours ago, Banksy said:

The work undertaken by Craig Fleming in defining a compatible style of play for the academy and the first team is beginning to take place. Hence the recent restructuring of the U21 squad where some U18 players have been moved up as they have been identified as potentially having a longer term future in the advancement of the club. This is fundamental to the owner's vision that the academy has to be sustained and progressed as it is key to a brighter future for the whole club. What we are seeing presently is the first green shoots in the rebuild from the damage caused by administration. The people brought in to direct the academy have been carefully selected and come from proven backgrounds. So hopefully the quality you refer to will be recognised sooner rather than later as the restructure progresses.

How do you think the young Academy players will fit in with the style of play Warne prefers?

[Banksy]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

How do you think the young Academy players will fit in with the style of play Warne prefers?

Looking at the method adopted by the academy teams this season, it is promising, good to watch and is compatible with the development of young professionals making their way in the game. The adopted style should make DCFC an attractive proposition for academy players moving from other clubs. I think that most would agree that over the past year the academy has gained momentum again. In terms of the number of coaches and support staff employed in the academy, it is a very significant investment. All academy clubs adhere to a common brand of football adopted by all teams within the club; it would not be sensible or efficient for there to be a conflict. Paul Warne would, I hope, be expected to buy in to the overall philosophy and align the first team's style to meet the overall aims of the club. This is a case of all of the coaches working together for the greater good. Paul Warne seems very open to the benefits of education and I hope he sees and makes full use of what is happening in the academy; this is a very new experience for him in comparison with what he's had before. Only time will tell us the outcome but this is the DCFC corporate football project not the Paul Warne show. I think he is clever enough to see that.

[Ram@Lincoln]

13 hours ago, Banksy said:

The work undertaken by Craig Fleming in defining a compatible style of play for the academy and the first team is beginning to take place. Hence the recent restructuring of the U21 squad where some U18 players have been moved up as they have been identified as potentially having a longer term future in the advancement of the club. This is fundamental to the owner's vision that the academy has to be sustained and progressed as it is key to a brighter future for the whole club. What we are seeing presently is the first green shoots in the rebuild from the damage caused by administration. The people brought in to direct the academy have been carefully selected and come from proven backgrounds. So hopefully the quality you refer to will be recognised sooner rather than later as the restructure progresses.

What's been the biggest change to the previous regime with Wassall? From the outside, it seemed to be jobs for his boys, not necessarily the best for the job. What's Fleming and co doing differently? It's early days but it's obviously working.

[RoyMac5]

49 minutes ago, Banksy said:

Paul Warne would, I hope, be expected to buy in to the overall philosophy and align the first team's style to meet the overall aims of the club. This is a case of all of the coaches working together for the greater good. Paul Warne seems very open to the benefits of education and I hope he sees and makes full use of what is happening in the academy; this is a very new experience for him in comparison with what he's had before. Only time will tell us the outcome but this is the DCFC corporate football project not the Paul Warne show. I think he is clever enough to see that.

I think that was my point. I watched the latest RamsTV academy offering and saw little (excepting a couple of wild long balls out from the centre backs!) to remind me of the first team. In the game last night there was plenty of opportunity to give the youngsters a run out. But instead one 'youngster' who set up our goal (according to GoC) was pulled off.

I realise this is yet another anti-Warne diatribe, but where do you get your positive view of the Academy going forward from if Warne is leading them? I see nothing but losing our good youngsters to more forward-thinking teams, why stay here when the first team's tactics are 'get it wide and cross it' no matter who is in the middle? This is the worst of our current situation, thinking that our talented youngsters, that we are developing will not want to stay. 😞

[RoyMac5]

 

[Banksy]

1 minute ago, Ram@Lincoln said:

What's been the biggest change to the previous regime with Wassall? From the outside, it seemed to be jobs for his boys, not necessarily the best for the job. What's Fleming and co doing differently? It's early days but it's obviously working.

I think that's a bit unfair on Darren Wassall. He did a sterling job at the academy over the years. I might even say that our qualification for UEFA competitions was above and beyond what a Championship club had a right to expect. He came with Nigel Clough, survived the greater part of the GSE years and also, quite incredibly, all of the Morris years and the period in administration. So he must have been doing something right!

Some will claim that he was too far removed from the youngsters throughout the academy and many left without even speaking to him while they were here. But he was the director and it was impossible for him to be hands-on with all of them. In the 10 age groups under the academy umbrella, there are upwards of 200 scholars and boys involved in any one season. They were well served by the coaches who reported to Wassall. In turn, his day-to-day hands on focus had to be on the scholars and young professionals. He was proud of his achievements and I think he had a right to be so. Why the parting of the ways? Only those involved know the answer. But maybe there was not a meeting of minds between Wassall and the incoming coaching team. If so, it was probably timely for a parting of the ways.

We seem to have been fortunate in being able to attract the quality of staff who have come in post-Wassall and progress so far is encouraging. But because we were almost rebuilding from scratch, improvement was almost inevitable. Let's hope it continues.

[Ram@Lincoln]

48 minutes ago, Banksy said:

I think that's a bit unfair on Darren Wassall. He did a sterling job at the academy over the years. I might even say that our qualification for UEFA competitions was above and beyond what a Championship club had a right to expect. He came with Nigel Clough, survived the greater part of the GSE years and also, quite incredibly, all of the Morris years and the period in administration. So he must have been doing something right!

Some will claim that he was too far removed from the youngsters throughout the academy and many left without even speaking to him while they were here. But he was the director and it was impossible for him to be hands-on with all of them. In the 10 age groups under the academy umbrella, there are upwards of 200 scholars and boys involved in any one season. They were well served by the coaches who reported to Wassall. In turn, his day-to-day hands on focus had to be on the scholars and young professionals. He was proud of his achievements and I think he had a right to be so. Why the parting of the ways? Only those involved know the answer. But maybe there was not a meeting of minds between Wassall and the incoming coaching team. If so, it was probably timely for a parting of the ways.

We seem to have been fortunate in being able to attract the quality of staff who have come in post-Wassall and progress so far is encouraging. But because we were almost rebuilding from scratch, improvement was almost inevitable. Let's hope it continues.

I certainly wasn't trying to discredit Wassall in the slightest. Just for me, looking in from the outside, it seemed to be if you weren't a old friend of Wassall or literally one of his boys ala Ethan (retained much longer than his ability showed), then a position wasn't available.

With that, the same could be said about the Southampton heavy team being brought in, but a change is good for all. There's green shoots for sure, let's hope it continues to develop and the first team can benefit. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ram@Lincoln said:

I certainly wasn't trying to discredit Wassall in the slightest. Just for me, looking in from the outside, it seemed to be if you weren't a old friend of Wassall or literally one of his boys ala Ethan (retained much longer than his ability showed), then a position wasn't available.

With that, the same could be said about the Southampton heavy team being brought in, but a change is good for all. There's green shoots for sure, let's hope it continues to develop and the first team can benefit. 

He did a good job but it did become a kingdom where it was jobs for the boys and it was his way or out. Contracts for some like his son were at times surprises. Towards the end they lost a number of good coaches and the regime needed changing. 
 

That doesn’t take away from what the academy become under him but it was heavily funded and one year more than Liverpool’s in terms of money through the books I was told by more than one person in the game. 

The new regime is a good one and is allowing players to develop at the correct speed and in an environment which seems more professional than before. Little things like the introduction of a loan manager and players already being told if their future is not with the club being able to go out and find new clubs early.

Contract situation needs looking at and I’m sure it already is. Of the current u21s only Evans I think has a guaranteed year after this season with Fapetu, Moloney, Moore, Bartley, Lindsay and Weston all with options to extend on contracts that end this summer. D Robinson is out of contract this summer and I think he needs to be getting First Team Games to keep him. Of course Brown, Cox?, Thompson, and some of the other u18s go beyond that due to length of contract and start dates for their deals.
 

Forward planning is there now, I think they have a picture of what the next few years looks like for the players they feel can make the step up and IMO that was what was lacking at the end of Wassall’s tenure. 

[Crewton]

15 hours ago, ExiledinDerby said:

Contracts for some like his son were at times surprises.

Yes, I always thought that wasn't a good look, particularly as they never looked capable of making the step up.

[Srg]

19 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

I think that was my point. I watched the latest RamsTV academy offering and saw little (excepting a couple of wild long balls out from the centre backs!) to remind me of the first team. In the game last night there was plenty of opportunity to give the youngsters a run out. But instead one 'youngster' who set up our goal (according to GoC) was pulled off.

I realise this is yet another anti-Warne diatribe, but where do you get your positive view of the Academy going forward from if Warne is leading them? I see nothing but losing our good youngsters to more forward-thinking teams, why stay here when the first team's tactics are 'get it wide and cross it' no matter who is in the middle? This is the worst of our current situation, thinking that our talented youngsters, that we are developing will not want to stay. 😞

I'd actually suggest that what Warne says he wants actually suits younger, faster, more athletic players way more than what the first team has - which, as we know, has a lot of players he didn't sign and we're still hamstrung in some respects on what he can bring in. Whether what he says and what gets put on the pitch marries up remains to be seen, as it really hasn't in the first team very often at all.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Srg

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Yes, I always thought that wasn't a good look, particularly as they never looked capable of making the step up.

His other son being an agent and around the building all the time wasn’t a great look either….

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Srg said:

I'd actually suggest that what Warne says he wants actually suits younger, faster, more athletic players way more than what the first team has - which, as we know, has a lot of players he didn't sign and we're still hamstrung in some respects on what he can bring in. Whether what he says and what gets put on the pitch marries up remains to be seen, as it really hasn't in the first team very often at all.

It needs a clear style of play implemented across the age groups from u16 upwards to ease the transition to first team and historically the academy has not played that more direct in the channels style of football.

IMO and it is of course only mine for what it’s worth changing the academy to only play that way has limitations on what happens if the manager changes. The younger ages should continue to play possession based football developing through the thirds as that gives the most development as a player but maybe from u16 upwards the academy teams can introduce a more direct way of playing.

Its another reason why loan moves are so critical in development of players as out in men’s football the result matters, the physicality has an impact and generally they will be asked to play in a more direct style than they are used to, that includes Goalkeepers as well. 

[Banksy]

22 hours ago, ExiledinDerby said:

He did a good job but it did become a kingdom where it was jobs for the boys and it was his way or out. Contracts for some like his son were at times surprises. Towards the end they lost a number of good coaches and the regime needed changing. 
 

That doesn’t take away from what the academy become under him but it was heavily funded and one year more than Liverpool’s in terms of money through the books I was told by more than one person in the game. 

The new regime is a good one and is allowing players to develop at the correct speed and in an environment which seems more professional than before. Little things like the introduction of a loan manager and players already being told if their future is not with the club being able to go out and find new clubs early.

Contract situation needs looking at and I’m sure it already is. Of the current u21s only Evans I think has a guaranteed year after this season with Fapetu, Moloney, Moore, Bartley, Lindsay and Weston all with options to extend on contracts that end this summer. D Robinson is out of contract this summer and I think he needs to be getting First Team Games to keep him. Of course Brown, Cox?, Thompson, and some of the other u18s go beyond that due to length of contract and start dates for their deals.
 

Forward planning is there now, I think they have a picture of what the next few years looks like for the players they feel can make the step up and IMO that was what was lacking at the end of Wassall’s tenure. 

Your views about Wassall and the value of what was invested in the academy seem to have taken a very sharp U-turn since March this year when he was still in post. At that time you said this:

ExiledinDerby

Posted March 26

'The academy has to have a budget of £2 million per year to retain Cat 1 status. If you are a lower category the value of your players decreases so if you think the money we received recently is bad try Cat 2 where the a player is worth less than half that of a Cat 1 player who has been at the club from u8 - u16 under EPPP.

It has been Cat 1 since 2014 I think so I assume costs of about £18 million pound.

Hendrick £8 million

Hughes £5 million

Gordon £3 million

Lowe, Whittaker, Bogle, Kellyman, Delap, Man Utd Kids, Buchanan, Ryan, Ebosele, Ebowei…

Its actually made more money than it’s cost….

That return on numbers of players alone including Bird, Sibley, Knight would suggest without it 

Current players creating interest and with potential Robinson, Richards, Hawkins, Brown, Wheeldon, Evans, Thompson… to name a few.

For what my opinion is worth (not much I know 😀) I’d say it’s been a good investment.. '

I agree with most of that but is very different to what you are now saying. You also say 'that towards the end they lost a lot of good coaches and the regime needed changing.' This seems to imply that we lost coaches because of Wassall, not through administration or other reasons. I recall Boyer leaving to manage Salford, Short to become assistant-manager at Oxford, Walker to the first team and then going with Rosenior to Hull and Pearcey leaving when Warne brought in Waddington. They didn't leave because of Wassall. So can you tell us who did?

I accept your point about nepotism which is an innate problem with most parents. The same was said about Alex Ferguson bringing Darren into his United team and winning a Premier League winners medal in 1992-3. The same was said about Brian Clough chucking Nigel in at 18 at Forest where he won 14 England caps and a couple of League Cups. People made the point that neither did as well at other clubs, ignoring the fact that their initial success might have been down to the fact they were playing under the two greatest ever British managers. Darren didn't have that defence. He was just another academy parent who perhaps had an over-inflated view of his son's ability as most parents tend to have about their offspring in all walks of life. It's not a crime, it's perfectly natural and can't be helped.

I still think that Wassall did an excellent job for Derby.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Banksy