Guest Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Andicis said: FYI I am quite literally an accountant. Thank God I've got a better one 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Brailsford Ram said: Thank God I've got a better one 😂 Good job you've got one as you don't seem to understand numbers very well. i-Ram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, Andicis said: Bogle was not an academy player, we bought him. and whilst it may not have been that way on restructuring to avoid sell on clauses Lowe was clearly the less valuable of the two. Hughes was sold for much lower than we could have got. None of the four players you've listed would go for more than 2 million. They aren't 10 million pound players. Brennan Johnson is worth those 4 combined with money on top. Worth less than we got for Hendrick too. Yes, we were asset stripped. That said, the likes of Plange, Ebiowei, Ebosele and Williams were not proven enough to have gone for a large sum. Ultimately, I stand by my initial point. Our academy is not as productive as people would claim, and we aren't generating revenues that other clubs with less prestigious academies have been, especially given that category 1 academies are more expensive. FYI I am quite literally an accountant. They never got the chance to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, Ramslad1992 said: They never got the chance to! Sure, don't disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Andicis said: Oliver Burke was sold for 13 million. Osborne was sold for 3.5 million. Cash for an initial fee of 14 million. That's the whole point. So what if they aren't that good? They generated huge income and helped the club reinvest. I'd trade our ''better'' academy players for their income, especially as we will be paying more to be a cat 1 academy with little to show for it in revenue. That says more about the clubs first team and management/ownership than it does their academy though. Forest sold Burke after he’d had a good breakthrough season. We sold Hughes after he’d had a season getting back to fitness after a serious injury, and the manager had just told him he wasn’t wanted. Our recent sales were all when other clubs knew we were desperate for cash and could lowball us. The one time we got the timing right (Hendrick), we got proper money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, duncanjwitham said: That says more about the clubs first team and management/ownership than it does their academy though. Forest sold Burke after he’d had a good breakthrough season. We sold Hughes after he’d had a season getting back to fitness after a serious injury, and the manager had just told him he wasn’t wanted. Our recent sales were all when other clubs knew we were desperate for cash and could lowball us. The one time we got the timing right (Hendrick), we got proper money. Sure, but I would argue it's the most objective measure of the academy's success. We have a theoretically bigger and certainly more expensive academy that generates smaller revenues for the club. We definitely suffered from administration and asset stripping, but we didn't do a great job of that beforehand either. We have to improve in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, Andicis said: Bogle was not an academy player, we bought him. and whilst it may not have been that way on restructuring to avoid sell on clauses Lowe was clearly the less valuable of the two. Bogle joined our academy us as a 15-year old schoolboy from Swindon. He became a first-year scholar with Derby County at 17 and then signed a professional contract. He was a product of our academy. Learn how the academy system works before sounding off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, Brailsford Ram said: Bogle joined our academy us as a 15-year old schoolboy from Swindon. He became a first-year scholar with Derby County at 17 and then signed a professional contract. He was a product of our academy. Learn how the academy system works before sounding off. Argue semantics if you like. He was bought in later on after being in the system at Reading/Swindon. Swindon rated him highly enough to put a sell on clause of 20% in his move to Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 21 minutes ago, Andicis said: Bogle was not an academy player, we bought him. and whilst it may not have been that way on restructuring to avoid sell on clauses Lowe was clearly the less valuable of the two. Hughes was sold for much lower than we could have got. None of the four players you've listed would go for more than 2 million. They aren't 10 million pound players. Brennan Johnson is worth those 4 combined with money on top. Worth less than we got for Hendrick too. Yes, we were asset stripped. That said, the likes of Plange, Ebiowei, Ebosele and Williams were not proven enough to have gone for a large sum. Ultimately, I stand by my initial point. Our academy is not as productive as people would claim, and we aren't generating revenues that other clubs with less prestigious academies have been, especially given that category 1 academies are more expensive. FYI I am quite literally an accountant. Since you aren't counting Bogle (signed aged 15), you also can't include some from Forest including Brereton and Cash Carnero, duncanjwitham and angieram 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: Argue semantics if you like. He was bought in later on after being in the system at Reading/Swindon. Swindon rated him highly enough to put a sell on clause of 20% in his move to Derby. Very important semantics if you were the academy manager of Derby County and not an accountant 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 30 minutes ago, Andicis said: Oliver Burke was sold for 13 million. Osborne was sold for 3.5 million. Cash for an initial fee of 14 million. That's the whole point. So what if they aren't that good? They generated huge income and helped the club reinvest. I'd trade our ''better'' academy players for their income, especially as we will be paying more to be a cat 1 academy with little to show for it in revenue. Paying more than who/what? Forest are also Cat 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonwright Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said: Where does this idea come from that the players can only be one thing or another? As an example all modern goalkeepers and defenders are expected to be comfortable with the ball at their feet aren’t they? So they’ll be recruited and trained with that in mind. The young players recruited for the academy will all grow and develop in different ways and at different stages so although there is no doubt some science and analysis involved there’s no way the academy recruitment can only be geared around “big, strong, quick” players. Premier league clubs with academies have changing managers with differing personalities and footballing philosophies don’t they? I get there needs to be a general direction for the academy and the development of players in line with the first team of a club, but they’ll all be recruited first and foremost on their talent as footballers then shaped towards a style of play, that doesn’t mean they can’t learn another way of playing the game. Passing, tackling, shooting, running, touch, postions all coachable regardless of footballing philosophy surely? Agree and I think we are in danger of stereotyping both Warne and the type of player he appreciates. McGoldrick thrived massively under Warne. Would an academy that produced a load of McGoldricks be a bad thing? Warned relied heavily on Hourihane and Bird. Are these not 'Warne type players'? Would he not want players like this in the academy? We've just signed Joe Ward. Who is five foot six. Is he not a etc etc etc Edited June 21, 2023 by vonwright Carnero and Caerphilly Ram 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, Ghost of Clough said: Since you aren't counting Bogle (signed aged 15), you also can't include some from Forest including Brereton and Cash Which is fair enough, Forest were just a local example to back up a point, can't say I looked into much detail. Derby haven't done well at selling our academy prospects for quite some time. That's the crux of my point, I'm sure there are other examples of similar sized clubs who have also generated more revenue from academy players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said: Very important semantics if you were the academy manager of Derby County and not an accountant 😂 Is Kaide Gordon a liverpool academy player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Paying more than who/what? Forest are also Cat 1. So they are - fair enough didn't know they moved up a few years ago. To be fair, at the time of those players coming through they wouldn't have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Andicis said: So they are - fair enough didn't know they moved up a few years ago. To be fair, at the time of those players coming through they wouldn't have been. You're making a lot of assumptions without knowing all of the facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, Ghost of Clough said: You're making a lot of assumptions without knowing all of the facts... Throwing out the Forest example if that makes you feel better, I still don't think we've done well at selling academy prospects. Do you disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckoBeast Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 I just scroll through waiting for @Big Trav 👊🏻 hintonsboots, Will Hughes Hair, Scott129 and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 15 minutes ago, Andicis said: Sure, but I would argue it's the most objective measure of the academy's success. We have a theoretically bigger and certainly more expensive academy that generates smaller revenues for the club. We definitely suffered from administration and asset stripping, but we didn't do a great job of that beforehand either. We have to improve in that area. Burke goes straight into Forest team, has a good season and they sell him for big money. Sibley breaks into ours, then spends a season on the bench, then we get relegated and appoint a manager who plays him at left back. There’s absolutely a world where Sibley plays 35 games the season after his breakout, scores 15 goals and we sell him for big money. That that didn’t happen is nothing to do with how good the 2 academies, or the 2 players, are. Ghost of Clough 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: Burke goes straight into Forest team, has a good season and they sell him for big money. Sibley breaks into ours, then spends a season on the bench, then we get relegated and appoint a manager who plays him at left back. There’s absolutely a world where Sibley plays 35 games the season after his breakout, scores 15 goals and we sell him for big money. That that didn’t happen is nothing to do with how good the 2 academies, or the 2 players, are. Sibley being on the bench has no reflection on how good the player is? That's an excuse. He had a good break out season, and was rumoured to have interest from Wolves to be fair, but Burke had the likes of Bayern, United, Liverpool and ultimately Leipzig who he moved to as the clubs rumoured to be interested. That would suggest there was a difference in quality, even if he didn't live up to expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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