Freedom of Speech

[sheeponacid]

11 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

The teacher definitely needs some compassion over such a pointless hill to die on. Whilst believing their stand to be part of some instruction from God, they are actually making Christianity just appear intolerant and bigoted. Like they've missed the central message of Christianity, although they are not the first!

Christianity bigoted and intolerant….. with its track record….get out, never

[Carl Sagan]

On freedom of speech, PayPal has closed the account for Free Speech Union, which is a perfectly reasonable (but anti-woke) campaign organization. Ditto a parents' group called Us for Them who apparently campaigned to keep schools open during lockdown, probably in hindsight the majority position. Making it more difficult for people to donate money. 

This is the danger of digital money, that you can have your ability to use, access or receive taken away from you at the flick of a switch if someone else, either a government or a financial institution, deem you have the wrong views. This is why cryptocurrency matters so much, because it is impossible for governments or banks to control it. 

[nottingram]

22 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

On freedom of speech, PayPal has closed the account for Free Speech Union, which is a perfectly reasonable (but anti-woke) campaign organization. Ditto a parents' group called Us for Them who apparently campaigned to keep schools open during lockdown, probably in hindsight the majority position. Making it more difficult for people to donate money. 

This is the danger of digital money, that you can have your ability to use, access or receive taken away from you at the flick of a switch if someone else, either a government or a financial institution, deem you have the wrong views. This is why cryptocurrency matters so much, because it is impossible for governments or banks to control it. 

Sounds like a huge victory for the “Free Speech Union.” PayPal having the freedom to do business with whoever they choose to.

Assume they’re not complaining about it?

Oh.

[Crewton]

5 hours ago, nottingram said:

Sounds like a huge victory for the “Free Speech Union.” PayPal having the freedom to do business with whoever they choose to.

Assume they’re not complaining about it?

Oh.

I carry no torch for the FSU, but that's not an example of a company exercising "free speech" : more like a major player in a restricted market deciding who can use their services in an attempt to restrict their activities. The very opposite of the principles of free speech in fact, though many will applaud PayPal. 

[ariotofmyown]

5 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

On freedom of speech, PayPal has closed the account for Free Speech Union, which is a perfectly reasonable (but anti-woke) campaign organization. Ditto a parents' group called Us for Them who apparently campaigned to keep schools open during lockdown, probably in hindsight the majority position. Making it more difficult for people to donate money. 

This is the danger of digital money, that you can have your ability to use, access or receive taken away from you at the flick of a switch if someone else, either a government or a financial institution, deem you have the wrong views. This is why cryptocurrency matters so much, because it is impossible for governments or banks to control it. 

Toby Young and his Free Speech Union have been so cancelled that he is in the Spectator writing about it. The start of the article is all about how he has been cancelled in the past, the poor guy.

Probably a desperate PR stunt to get "cancelled" on purpose so the rich elites behind Free Speech Union can appear everywhere moaning about been cancelled. It could be a coincidence, but it also means the right wing media (plus Daily Mail) can get all whipped up instead of focusing on what the government are currently up too?

"Did you see this Maureen, they are uncapping banker's bonuses and cutting taxes for the richest? Who on earth voted for this?"

"Forget that Brian, Toby Young and some rich mates can't use Paypal or something. Apparently, the Nazis at Paypal say we all have to turn into transexuals. My Grandad didn't die at the Somme for this blah blah..."

[maxjam]

6 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

On freedom of speech, PayPal has closed the account for Free Speech Union, which is a perfectly reasonable (but anti-woke) campaign organization. Ditto a parents' group called Us for Them who apparently campaigned to keep schools open during lockdown, probably in hindsight the majority position. Making it more difficult for people to donate money. 

This is the danger of digital money, that you can have your ability to use, access or receive taken away from you at the flick of a switch if someone else, either a government or a financial institution, deem you have the wrong views. This is why cryptocurrency matters so much, because it is impossible for governments or banks to control it. 

This has been happening for a while, but of course its not political and the obvious bias isn't there ?

Its starts with Tommy Robinson and everyone's, 'good its about time scum like that were removed'.  After you remove the extreme fringes however those that weren't quite so bad are next in line for the cancel culture mob and other various conservative commentators are removed - but its still good, cos they were a bit mean after all... 

The new 'extreme' is continually chipped away until we reach the point that Trudeau feels emboldened to freeze the bank accounts of protestors and PayPal ban relatively centre right people such as Toby Young who are targetted for wanting to discuss legitimate concerns over lockdowns and vaccine mandates etc.  But still its funny because he's all over the media complaining about his free speech.

IMHO, at best this is just another small step along the path to two separate societies.  Twitter, paypal etc for the left.  Parler, GETTR, etc for the right - both pushing the more extreme ideologies of their faction. 

At worst, the right will realise that they too can deploy the same tactics.  The Tories have already clamped down on some protesting, maybe they will follow Trudeau next time and financially cripple protestors.  Its not that big of a leap to see that this ends up with a western version of the Chinese social credit score and being punished for displaying wrong think or voting the wrong way.

Maybe we should all care a bit more when social media companies promote obvious bias or payment companies ban people not for financial irregularities, but opinions.  Nah... its too funny.

[Crewton]

I think we should be careful about conflating restrictions on "free speech" (i.e opinions we may not agree with) with platforms shutting down those peddling harmful misinformation and hate speech. Of course, there has to be judgement exercised by those platforms as to what and who breaches such standards, and that judgement won't be correct in everyone's eyes, but the manipulation of social media for nefarious purposes is a real issue imo and can't be allowed to "run free". 

[nottingram]

9 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think we should be careful about conflating restrictions on "free speech" (i.e opinions we may not agree with) with platforms shutting down those peddling harmful misinformation and hate speech. Of course, there has to be judgement exercised by those platforms as to what and who breaches such standards, and that judgement won't be correct in everyone's eyes, but the manipulation of social media for nefarious purposes is a real issue imo and can't be allowed to "run free". 

I take your point and I was only being facetious, I don’t actually agree with PayPal’s position albeit I know next to nothing about the FSU.

But if we are going to say everyone should have freedom of speech without any consequence (I think that seems to be the FSU’s position based on a cursory glance at the website, and, well, their name), then I don’t see how you can stop a private company having freedom to choose who they do business without consequence.

There was something funny to me about an organisation who literally promote everyone being free to say as they choose getting in a tizz about a different organisation simply doing as they choose.

Which circles back to the whole crux of the thread really. Everyone can have freedom of speech. Everyone else can have freedom to judge that and choose what they do to respond.

Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick.

[Stive Pesley]

58 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I carry no torch for the FSU, but that's not an example of a company exercising "free speech" : more like a major player in a restricted market deciding who can use their services in an attempt to restrict their activities. The very opposite of the principles of free speech in fact, though many will applaud PayPal. 

But they are a private organisation, with a strict set of policies and acceptable use standards. If they think someone has violated their standards then it's their right to remove that person. 

35 minutes ago, maxjam said:

at best this is just another small step along the path to two separate societies.  Twitter, paypal etc for the left.  Parler, GETTR, etc for the right - both pushing the more extreme ideologies of their faction

That's totally wrong though - the mainstream platforms of Twitter, Facebook, Paypal etc are simply trying to position themselves as a place of pleasant experience for users. In other words - where almost every normal person wants to be.

I use FB and Twitter to interact with friends on matters of music, football, TV, Films, dogs etc etc - normal stuff. When strangers barrel in with political stuff I just block them. I don't want that stuff in my social media. It's toxic. 

And I use Paypal for buying stuff. I don't use it for begging for donations of people so that I can build an army to orchestrate online pile-ons - which is what the FSU do

You may be correct that online societies will splinter, but you'll find that the mainstream platforms end up being used by normal people for normal stuff and these other places will become a battleground for the culture warriors of the left and right to have their pathetic spats.

To be honest I hope that happens sooner rather than later as it's tedious

[maxjam]

58 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

But they are a private organisation, with a strict set of policies and acceptable use standards. If they think someone has violated their standards then it's their right to remove that person. 

That's totally wrong though - the mainstream platforms of Twitter, Facebook, Paypal etc are simply trying to position themselves as a place of pleasant experience for users. In other words - where almost every normal person wants to be.

You just send/receive money through PayPal, why are they restricting people on one side of the political spectrum from being able to do that?  Hosting someones bank account doesn't mean you endorse their opinions.

I could understand it if you were sending money to a terrorist organisation or something else that is illegal, fair enough suspend their account its against the law, but to ban right wing commentators for their lawful and legitimate opinions is just wrong and authoritarian. 

The more people you ban, the narrower the allowed conversation becomes.  Ultimately, you end up banning increasingly moderate people because they are now on the 'extreme' of what is allowed.  What started out as the banning of hate speech is increasingly becoming the banning of opinions or differing viewpoints. 

Canada freezing the accounts of protestors was a nefarious escalation of authoritarianism and has now set a new standard of what is allowed in a so-called modern, progressive country.  If we don't raise concerns about it now, it will only get worse. 

Furthermore, life tends to be cyclical.  Whilst you may agree with those with their hands on the wheels of power at the moment, it might not always be that way.  The attempted Elon Musk/Twitter takeover highlighted the left-wing meltdown over a potential return to free speech being governed by the law rather than corporate ideology.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, nottingram said:

I take your point and I was only being facetious, I don’t actually agree with PayPal’s position albeit I know next to nothing about the FSU.

But if we are going to say everyone should have freedom of speech without any consequence (I think that seems to be the FSU’s position based on a cursory glance at the website, and, well, their name), then I don’t see how you can stop a private company having freedom to choose who they do business without consequence.

There was something funny to me about an organisation who literally promote everyone being free to say as they choose getting in a tizz about a different organisation simply doing as they choose.

Which circles back to the whole crux of the thread really. Everyone can have freedom of speech. Everyone else can have freedom to judge that and choose what they do to respond.

Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick.

You do have to love the irony of free market neoliberals moaning that private companies are allowed to make their own decisions. The market is always right Tobes! Just sit back at wait for 99% of people to now abandon Paypal. 

[maxjam]

15 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

You do have to love the irony of free market neoliberals moaning that private companies are allowed to make their own decisions. The market is always right Tobes! Just sit back at wait for 99% of people to now abandon Paypal. 

What is the alternative to PayPal?  Patreon?  They also ban people for free speech.  There are probably others but they are probably all hosted by the same companies that also restrict free speech such as when Amazon I think it was refused to host Parler in the run up to the 2020 election. 

If you're not concerned by the consolidation of power in the online realm and the dominance they exert, thats probably because your opinions and beliefs are currently aligned with theirs.  That might not always be the case, which is why freedom of speech should be paramount to everyone.

You do have to love the irony of progressives gleefully mocking victims of the free speech, stating that private companies are allowed to make their own decisions whilst also moaning energy companies are making to much money.  The market is always right! Just sit back and wait for 99% of the people to abandon British Gas. 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, nottingram said:

I take your point and I was only being facetious, I don’t actually agree with PayPal’s position albeit I know next to nothing about the FSU.

But if we are going to say everyone should have freedom of speech without any consequence (I think that seems to be the FSU’s position based on a cursory glance at the website, and, well, their name), then I don’t see how you can stop a private company having freedom to choose who they do business without consequence.

There was something funny to me about an organisation who literally promote everyone being free to say as they choose getting in a tizz about a different organisation simply doing as they choose.

Which circles back to the whole crux of the thread really. Everyone can have freedom of speech. Everyone else can have freedom to judge that and choose what they do to respond.

Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick.

Yeah, I see the irony of that. I can also understand why private companies might choose not to have commercial relationships with people of organisations who's policies, views or whatever, are contrary to their own - I've done it myself when vetting Clients for companies I've worked for in the past as part of 'risk management' - the danger would be if a near monopoly organisation did the same to ordinary people or, say, charities supporting causes that they are opposed to on subjective 'moral' grounds, but this isn't such an instance.

[maxjam]

The Parents Group that PayPal also shut down... Their 'crime'?  Wanting to keep schools open during lockdown.

 

[PistoldPete]

31 minutes ago, maxjam said:

You just send/receive money through PayPal, why are they restricting people on one side of the political spectrum from being able to do that?  Hosting someones bank account doesn't mean you endorse their opinions.

I could understand it if you were sending money to a terrorist organisation or something else that is illegal, fair enough suspend their account its against the law, but to ban right wing commentators for their lawful and legitimate opinions is just wrong and authoritarian. 

The more people you ban, the narrower the allowed conversation becomes.  Ultimately, you end up banning increasingly moderate people because they are now on the 'extreme' of what is allowed.  What started out as the banning of hate speech is increasingly becoming the banning of opinions or differing viewpoints. 

Canada freezing the accounts of protestors was a nefarious escalation of authoritarianism and has now set a new standard of what is allowed in a so-called modern, progressive country.  If we don't raise concerns about it now, it will only get worse. 

Furthermore, life tends to be cyclical.  Whilst you may agree with those with their hands on the wheels of power at the moment, it might not always be that way.  The attempted Elon Musk/Twitter takeover highlighted the left-wing meltdown over a potential return to free speech being governed by the law rather than corporate ideology.

The allegation is that FSU has been spreading misinformation, particularly about vaccines causing excess deaths. I have seen one article by FSU and as far as I could see they were only speculating that vaccine boosters might be one reason for excess deaths and it needs investigating. 
 

I don’t think vaccines are causing excess deaths but if more people are dying than we expect well that certainly does need investigating… even if the reason is as I expect the NHS not coping due to staff shortages etc. 

[Stive Pesley]

8 minutes ago, maxjam said:

What is the alternative to PayPal?

Skrill
Stripe
Venmo
Samsung Pay
Authorize.Net
Zelle
Wise
Cash Pay
We Pay
ClickBank
GooglePay
Shopify Payments
2Checkout
AmazonPay
QuickBooks Payments
Payoneer
ApplePay
 

to name but 17. (plus don't all banks offer electronic payments these days?)

Seems like needless crying to me. If it's such a big deal then why is that not a huge gap in the market for some entrepreneur to fill? "A PayPal for people who don't like terms of service"

41 minutes ago, maxjam said:

why are they restricting people on one side of the political spectrum from being able to do that

Nope - wrong. The Free Speech Union claims on its website very strongly that it is non-partisan. It doesn't care about left or right - only "free speech".  

 

 

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

The Parents Group that PayPal also shut down... Their 'crime'?  Wanting to keep schools open during lockdown.

 

It remains to be seen as to the reasons why this group has had its paypal account suspended. It seems odd to say the least, but I suspect more will come out that we don't know about. I don't feel like we have the whole story here

Incidentally I note in the article you link that "Other groups which have said their accounts have recently been shut down by PayPal include Left Lockdown Sceptics, which describes itself as a “socialist collective” opposed to government lockdown measures."

Awkward! 

 

 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

 

That's totally wrong though - the mainstream platforms of Twitter, Facebook, Paypal etc are simply trying to position themselves as a place of pleasant experience for users. In other words - where almost every normal person wants to be.

 

I'm shocked, I thought it was about making money, How Nieve of me ?

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I'm shocked, I thought it was about making money, How Nieve of me ?

Exactly - if they make it a pleasant experience then they make more money! People are leaving the platforms because they are sick of how toxic the content has become

 

[maxjam]

16 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Skrill
Stripe
Venmo
Samsung Pay
Authorize.Net
Zelle
Wise
Cash Pay
We Pay
ClickBank
GooglePay
Shopify Payments
2Checkout
AmazonPay
QuickBooks Payments
Payoneer
ApplePay

Never heard of half of those and most of the rest will probably share the same ideology as PayPal - would you trust them to look after your financial affairs after you have been burned once?

16 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Nope - wrong. The Free Speech Union claims on its website very strongly that it is non-partisan. It doesn't care about left or right - only "free speech".  

Thats right, they do stand up for everyone that has their free speech suppressed.

Unfortunately, it seems that the concept of 'free speech' is now against the ideology of Big Tech, the current guardians of the internet.