Freedom of Speech

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

She's a campaigner for women's rights in sports, preserving women-only competitions. Extremists would therefore label her "far right" or "fascist"

I'm not an extremist and I wouldn't label her far right or fascist

All she wants to do is openly discuss why she thinks trans women should be banned from competing in women's sport. There's definitely an important and nuanced discussion to be had there around a very tricky subject. The problem people seem to have is that she comes across as transphobic in the way she puts her case forward. 

[Crewton]

13 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I'm not an extremist and I wouldn't label her far right or fascist

All she wants to do is openly discuss why she thinks trans women should be banned from competing in women's sport. There's definitely an important and nuanced discussion to be had there around a very tricky subject. The problem people seem to have is that she comes across as transphobic in the way she puts her case forward. 

From what I've seen of that particular debate, merely holding an opinion that doesn't align precisely with the opinions of trans-rights activists is enough for someone to be labelled "transphobic".

With Sharron Davies, it's also relevant that she's been an outspoken critic of doping in sport, not least because she competed in an era when eastern-block athletes were doped on a systematic basis by some of the regimes, particularly the DDR, and she arguably missed out on allot of titles and medals because of it. So her opposition to trans-women competing against biological women ishould be seen in the light of her own experiences.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Is Sharon Davies still hot?

[Carl Sagan]

42 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I'm not an extremist and I wouldn't label her far right or fascist

All she wants to do is openly discuss why she thinks trans women should be banned from competing in women's sport. There's definitely an important and nuanced discussion to be had there around a very tricky subject. The problem people seem to have is that she comes across as transphobic in the way she puts her case forward. 

They label her "transphobic" because she believes people born as women should be allowed to compete in their own sports category. That's all it takes. And it really isn't a tricky subject. 

[Stive Pesley]

59 minutes ago, Crewton said:

From what I've seen of that particular debate, merely holding an opinion that doesn't align precisely with the opinions of trans-rights activists is enough for someone to be labelled "transphobic".

That's certainly the way it's portrayed by those who find themselves under attack. Rather than consider their messaging they adopt the stance of victimhood

31 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

They label her "transphobic" because she believes people born as women should be allowed to compete in their own sports category

As per above - for me, it's nothing to do with her having that opinion, it's the language she uses when doing so that make her seem transphobic. When she talks about people "choosing to be trans-sexual" and people "wishing to live as a trans-sexual", that immediately marks her out as having absolutely zero idea what people with gender dysphoria have to deal with. They don't choose any of it any more than someone chooses to be disabled, chooses to be black or chooses to be gay - it's just who they are. 

[Archied]

14 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

That's certainly the way it's portrayed by those who find themselves under attack. Rather than consider their messaging they adopt the stance of victimhood

As per above - for me, it's nothing to do with her having that opinion, it's the language she uses when doing so that make her seem transphobic. When she talks about people "choosing to be trans-sexual" and people "wishing to live as a trans-sexual", that immediately marks her out as having absolutely zero idea what people with gender dysphoria have to deal with. They don't choose any of it any more than someone chooses to be disabled, chooses to be black or chooses to be gay - it's just who they are. 

We are all just who we are ,,, then we make choices what to do with that and how to live our lives,,,

it is 100 % correct that trans women should not be allowed to compete in woman’s sport , no amount of you tweeking language changes that and trans women have a choice whether to do the right thing or selfishly try to force something that is clearly wrong and unfair , respect for others goes both ways,

perhaps Sharon Davies should not be being put in the position to worry about wording when forced to stand up for woman’s rights

Edited September 24, 2022 by Archied

[Stive Pesley]

38 minutes ago, Archied said:

it is 100 % correct that trans women should not be allowed to compete in woman’s sport

is it though? What about Darts? What about Snooker?

It's not a black and white subject. It should be for every sporting body in charge of every sport to look into it and decide for themselves.

In every sport there will be different physical factors, and different thresholds that can be seen to make a difference. Let the experts decide and come to an independent agreement. This seems to be happening in most sports now thankfully

45 minutes ago, Archied said:

perhaps Sharon Davies should not be being put in the position to worry about wording when forced to stand up for woman’s rights

1) if she's going to express a public opinion on a sensitive subject, she should absolutely think about her wording

2) it's not about standing up for "women's rights" - and that's another problem with her wording. Trans women are women. So it's their rights too. It's about "standing up for fairness in sport" 

 

[Archied]

10 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

is it though? What about Darts? What about Snooker?

It's not a black and white subject. It should be for every sporting body in charge of every sport to look into it and decide for themselves.

In every sport there will be different physical factors, and different thresholds that can be seen to make a difference. Let the experts decide and come to an independent agreement. This seems to be happening in most sports now thankfully

1) if she's going to express a public opinion on a sensitive subject, she should absolutely think about her wording

2) it's not about standing up for "women's rights" - and that's another problem with her wording. Trans women are women. So it's their rights too. It's about "standing up for fairness in sport" 

 

Trans women are trans women ,

you or anybody else that wants to fight for a catagory for trans women / trans men in sport have my 1000% support,

you see this all goes back to the crux of your obsession with minorities and the reality that I pointed out to you years ago on here , 

your playing minority trumps that your thinking will always lead to impasse and conflict ,

the rights of one minority does not wipe the rights of another minority, the rights of a minority does not wipe out the rights of the majority,

[Archied]

22 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

 

In every sport there will be different physical factors, and different thresholds that can be seen to make a difference. Let the experts decide and come to an independent agreement. This seems to be happening in most sports now thankfully

1) if she's going to express a public opinion on a sensitive subject, she should absolutely think about her wording

2) it's not about standing up for "women's rights" - and that's another problem with her wording. Trans women are women. So it's their rights too. It's about "standing up for fairness in sport" 

 

Yeah look at the mess that’s got us into over the last few years , I take it you decide who’s expert ?

Edited September 24, 2022 by Archied

[Carl Sagan]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

is it though? What about Darts? What about Snooker?

It's not a black and white subject. It should be for every sporting body in charge of every sport to look into it and decide for themselves.

In every sport there will be different physical factors, and different thresholds that can be seen to make a difference. Let the experts decide and come to an independent agreement. This seems to be happening in most sports now thankfully

1) if she's going to express a public opinion on a sensitive subject, she should absolutely think about her wording

2) it's not about standing up for "women's rights" - and that's another problem with her wording. Trans women are women. So it's their rights too. It's about "standing up for fairness in sport" 

 

Steve, I'd suggest you're repeating the bizarre doublethink of people who might call themselves "liberals" and think they're all lovely and caring and nice but are actually the most illiberal bunch one might come across. I call them "wokists". On the one hand there is the claim that "sex is not binary" (and "how dare anyone claim that it is"?). On the other hand they make binary statements such as "trans women are women" and don't even notice the contradiction, collapsing their spectrum onto a binary result.

No. All you can factually say is "trans women are trans women" or that "trans women are biological men".

Scientifically, human sex is binary. You are either male or female. You are either a man or a woman. Yes there is a minuscule percentage of the human population (estimated at 0.018%) born with both sex organs and labelled intersex, technically in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. But there is zero intersection between intersex people and the transgender community. 

There are those who wish they'd been born as the other sex and are labelled gender dysphoric, but the reality is that they weren't. Yes that's tough, and if those people want to live elements of their lives as the opposite sex when it doesn't impact negatively on others, no one is saying they shouldn't. But clearly it's wrong to remove the category of women's sports and allow anyone who wants (regardless of their sex) to compete in it.

 

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Is Sharon Davies still hot?

I would like to comment , but the mods would probably delete it.  

[Stive Pesley]

26 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

But clearly it's wrong to remove the category of women's sports and allow anyone who wants (regardless of their sex) to compete in it.

Which in no way did I advocate for. Yet you're accusing me of binary thinking? Clearly there are a multitude of sports with a multitude of physical characteristics which determine one's aptitude for a high performance level. And then a multitude of different stages of going through the process of transitioning gender, and within that a multitude of different physicalities of every human. So why should any of it be considered a binary choice?

I think it's fair to say - beware of anyone who wants to take either extreme position (ie ALL trans athletes should be allowed to compete in all gendered sports and NO trans athletes should be allowed to compete in all gendered sports)

I'm saying it should be legislated for by the individual sporting bodies according to each sport, and that's the end of it. I don't care what they decide, as long as it's about fairness. Literally the most middle ground position I could take, so interesting to see the reactions ?

 

[Eddie]

[Archied]

40 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Which in no way did I advocate for. Yet you're accusing me of binary thinking? Clearly there are a multitude of sports with a multitude of physical characteristics which determine one's aptitude for a high performance level. And then a multitude of different stages of going through the process of transitioning gender, and within that a multitude of different physicalities of every human. So why should any of it be considered a binary choice?

I think it's fair to say - beware of anyone who wants to take either extreme position (ie ALL trans athletes should be allowed to compete in all gendered sports and NO trans athletes should be allowed to compete in all gendered sports)

I'm saying it should be legislated for by the individual sporting bodies according to each sport, and that's the end of it. I don't care what they decide, as long as it's about fairness. Literally the most middle ground position I could take, so interesting to see the reactions ?

 

So by that muddled thinking really what you are saying is that some sports can be decided to be totally unisex , men can / should be able to compete in womens darts and such like? 
im ok to have that , after all men have been slowly been disallowed any areas of life they can have as womens rights have taken precedence, you see that is the where this all ends and perhaps you reap what you sow,

unless of course people stop all this stupidity 

[Crewton]

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

That's certainly the way it's portrayed by those who find themselves under attack. Rather than consider their messaging they adopt the stance of victimhood

I'm quite astonished that you wrote that. Do you think women being sent death threats and the vilest messages, often involving hard-core and illegal pornography, being bullied into silence and losing their jobs and careers merely for stating scientific facts are victims or merely suffering the consequences of their own actions? 

[Carl Sagan]

45 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Which in no way did I advocate for. Yet you're accusing me of binary thinking? Clearly there are a multitude of sports with a multitude of physical characteristics which determine one's aptitude for a high performance level. And then a multitude of different stages of going through the process of transitioning gender, and within that a multitude of different physicalities of every human. So why should any of it be considered a binary choice?

I think it's fair to say - beware of anyone who wants to take either extreme position (ie ALL trans athletes should be allowed to compete in all gendered sports and NO trans athletes should be allowed to compete in all gendered sports)

I'm saying it should be legislated for by the individual sporting bodies according to each sport, and that's the end of it. I don't care what they decide, as long as it's about fairness. Literally the most middle ground position I could take, so interesting to see the reactions ?

Because you wrote "trans women are women", so with one part of your brain you're saying "sex is binary". While with the other you talk about "a multitude of different stages of going through the process of transitioning gender, and within that a multitude of different physicalities of every human", suggesting you think it's some kind of spectrum. The cognitive dissonance is impressive.

Western civilization has reached this point through the agricultural revolution, the Renaissance, the scientific revolution and the industrial revolution, but now risks being undermined by all this anti-scientific baloney, imagining biology isn't real.

[Archied]

3 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Because you wrote "trans women are women", so with one part of your brain you're saying "sex is binary". While with the other you talk about "a multitude of different stages of going through the process of transitioning gender, and within that a multitude of different physicalities of every human", suggesting you think it's some kind of spectrum. The cognitive dissonance is impressive.

Western civilization has reached this point through the agricultural revolution, the Renaissance, the scientific revolution and the industrial revolution, but now risks being undermined by all this anti-scientific baloney, imagining biology isn't real.

? yep no call to follow the science there

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Because you wrote "trans women are women", so with one part of your brain you're saying "sex is binary". While with the other you talk about "a multitude of different stages of going through the process of transitioning gender, and within that a multitude of different physicalities of every human", suggesting you think it's some kind of spectrum. The cognitive dissonance is impressive.

Western civilization has reached this point through the agricultural revolution, the Renaissance, the scientific revolution and the industrial revolution, but now risks being undermined by all this anti-scientific baloney, imagining biology isn't real.

I know you've a scientific brain so you read it as an absolute statement, but rest assured that I meant conceptually a trans woman should be treated as a woman. I'm not here to argue about biology

And again interesting that no matter how I try to keep the discussion about fairness in sport, people keep dragging it back into being about the semantics of sex and gender. It's little wonder that there is no sane discourse to be had on the matter.

I'll leave it there but your views have been noted

[Archied]

13 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I know you've a scientific brain so you read it as an absolute statement, but rest assured that I meant conceptually a trans woman should be treated as a woman. I'm not here to argue about biology

And again interesting that no matter how I try to keep the discussion about fairness in sport, people keep dragging it back into being about the semantics of sex and gender. It's little wonder that there is no sane discourse to be had on the matter.

I'll leave it there but your views have been noted

Fairness in sport you say ,,,, trans women should not be able to compete in womens sport , it’s not fair , should small slightly built men be allowed to compete in womens sport in the interest of fairness?

I really believe a trans woman should treat biological women with respect and consideration and that is just not being encouraged apart from people like Caitlin Jenner,, be proud and happy to be a trans person , fight for your own catagories in sport , bathrooms , changing rooms , prisons , abuse shelters ect ect ,, that’s sane ,, not the guff your spouting

Edited September 24, 2022 by Archied

[Stive Pesley]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

I really believe a trans woman should treat biological women with respect and consideration and that is just not being encouraged apart from people like Caitlin Jenner,, be proud and happy to be a trans person , fight for your own catagories in sport , bathrooms , changing rooms , prisons , abuse shelters ect ect ,, that’s sane ,, not the guff your spouting

It's weird because I agree with what you say in bold here. So why the ad hominem attack, accusing me of "spouting guff" ?(although full disclosure - i did have curry for tea). 

Literally all I have said is that I think it should be left up to each individual sporting body to decide its own rules around trans-gender participation

In contrast - you have said 

Quote

trans women should not be able to compete in womens sport

and

Quote

it is 100 % correct that trans women should not be allowed to compete in woman’s sport

and posted several aggressive-sounding  responses to my comments. Perhaps take a step back and consider why you feel the need to attack me when I haven't actually said anything controversial