Archied Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: There's an important difference though - one is supported by the vast bulk of informed scientific opinion and the other is debunked by it. The question is, do you agree with the informed scientific opinion or not, and on what basis? Is it from an informed position (and informed in what way and by whom?), from a distrust of authority (which authority? For what reason) or just a preference to believe a viewpoint without any significant informed authority behind it? There’s also the important difference that one wants to force its opinion and choices on others , some want to go about they’re own lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: It's a good point, but I suppose I was thinking that there is no scientific evidence that pouring poo on a statue of a deceased soldier is a fix for man-made climate change ? It's just another example of people being driven to an unhealthy state of mind by the news media. The news wants to monetize our greatest asset: attention. So they bombard us with everything that they can to try and elicit our strongest feelings. That happens, they get out attention, but nothing changes for the better and it's easy to feel hopeless. I don't think we can win. If we disengage from the news, we become much happier. But it's happy ignorance and people can get away with anything if we stop caring Spot on , it’s not a case of not caring at all though it’s a balance but we do need to keep ourselves as happy and emotionally well as we possibly can or we are no use to ourselves or anybody else, first and foremost with the extremists they might try living the life they demand of others ,lead by example, who knows it might just catch on, who really believes or the respects the rabid call/ claims they are all about saving lives when they openly say they are ok for people to die as a direct result of they’re actions NOW, I’ve noticed that claims of doing / forcing stuff for the collective good often turns out to be a hide behind for stuff not so good Edited November 2, 2022 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 (edited) Anybody seen the latest thunberg offerings/ rants , climate crisis a bit of a Trojan perhaps Interspersed among the usual directives about the need to pressure political leaders, her message was more radical and more militant than it has been in the past. There is no “back to normal”, she told us. “Normal” was the “system” which gave us the climate crisis, a system of “colonialism, imperialism, oppression, genocide”, of “racist, oppressive extractionism”. Climate justice is part of all justice; you can’t have one without the others. We can’t trust the elites produced by this system to confront its flaws — that’s why she, much like Rishi Sunak, won’t be bothering with the COP meeting this year. COP itself is little more than a “scam” which facilitates “greenwashing, lying and cheating”. Only overthrow of “the whole capitalist system” will suffice. Edited November 4, 2022 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 On 02/11/2022 at 15:06, Archied said: There’s also the important difference that one wants to force its opinion and choices on others , some want to go about they’re own lives But carrying on as we are, as far as a growing number of people are concerned (particularly the young), means forcing on them a planet-wide environment that they believe will, within their lifetime, create conditions that will make life on earth unsustainable. You may not like their message or methods, but surely you can see why some of them are increasingly belligerent? Miggins and ariotofmyown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 26 minutes ago, Crewton said: But carrying on as we are, as far as a growing number of people are concerned (particularly the young), means forcing on them a planet-wide environment that they believe will, within their lifetime, create conditions that will make life on earth unsustainable. You may not like their message or methods, but surely you can see why some of them are increasingly belligerent? The key word in your post is believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 8 hours ago, Archied said: We can’t trust the elites produced by this system to confront its flaws — that’s why she, much like Rishi Sunak, won’t be bothering with the COP meeting this year. COP itself is little more than a “scam” which facilitates “greenwashing, lying and cheating”. Only overthrow of “the whole capitalist system” will suffice She's not wrong though is she? You only have to look at the obscene profits announced by the energy giants this month. Billions upon billions. While we all sit here worrying about being able to afford to heat our homes, feed our kids and pay the mortgage/rent They are the most profitable companies on the planet. We're literally in a position where the most profitable business is eco-cide If the human race wants to continue, it has to overthrow the system. The current system is killing us Highgate and ariotofmyown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 3 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: She's not wrong though is she? You only have to look at the obscene profits announced by the energy giants this month. Billions upon billions. While we all sit here worrying about being able to afford to heat our homes, feed our kids and pay the mortgage/rent They are the most profitable companies on the planet. We're literally in a position where the most profitable business is eco-cide If the human race wants to continue, it has to overthrow the system. The current system is killing us Well this is where I stand in terms of ideology, somewhere between capitalism and communism with the best bits of both would be fantastic but that’s just me , yes we have problems with and from capitalism but let’s be fair it’s also brought a lot of good , peoples lives have improved beyond measure in the last 100 years , we live longer , we have better quality of life , there’s a long list I could write of the positives to balance against the negative s of which there are many too , tear it down or improve it? now my take on Greta sorry but what I see is another swivel eyed extremist , overly angry , emotionally on the edge shouting to pull down / destroy the whole system , the same system that has served her parents very well and by extension her , giving them a well off life style and privileged position , the system that has put her parents , friends , backers in the privileged position to finance her flying round the world or lending her they’re private yatch , the same system that produces money for her to write books and preach to others , the lack of self awareness is as always astounding , the similarities between her and blm underlying politics is clear , the use of real issues as a Trojan horse is clear , I can’t stand the current state of politics and politicians but would I rather them or thundberg and her ilk in charge ? Jeez , has to be them ,we would be in a total disaster/ mess within months of these people having any power to destroy all with no answers or stupid naive claptrap, that’s why they are not interested in the ballot box , the majority run a mile from these cultish tunnel visioned extremists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramesses Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Archied said: Well this is where I stand in terms of ideology, somewhere between capitalism and communism with the best bits of both would be fantastic but that’s just me , yes we have problems with and from capitalism but let’s be fair it’s also brought a lot of good , peoples lives have improved beyond measure in the last 100 years , we live longer , we have better quality of life , there’s a long list I could write of the positives to balance against the negative s of which there are many too , tear it down or improve it? now my take on Greta sorry but what I see is another swivel eyed extremist , overly angry , emotionally on the edge shouting to pull down / destroy the whole system , the same system that has served her parents very well and by extension her , giving them a well off life style and privileged position , the system that has put her parents , friends , backers in the privileged position to finance her flying round the world or lending her they’re private yatch , the same system that produces money for her to write books and preach to others , the lack of self awareness is as always astounding , the similarities between her and blm underlying politics is clear , the use of real issues as a Trojan horse is clear , I can’t stand the current state of politics and politicians but would I rather them or thundberg and her ilk in charge ? Jeez , has to be them ,we would be in a total disaster/ mess within months of these people having any power to destroy all with no answers or stupid naive claptrap, that’s why they are not interested in the ballot box , the majority run a mile from these cultish tunnel visioned extremists This is a couple of years old, but I hope it helps... Stive Pesley, ariotofmyown and Highgate 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, ramesses said: This is a couple of years old, but I hope it helps... Do you have similar help for grown men / women who worship her and hang her every word ? That’s more embarrassing in my view , I wonder ,, if it was Tommy Robinson pushing one of his children on the global stage to push his right wing views would you feel the same ,, doubt it somehow , you see it’s the her parents who I blame and the other adults using a child to do they’re bidding but you know that really hence the above , typical now predictable tactics Edited November 4, 2022 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Archied said: Well this is where I stand in terms of ideology, somewhere between capitalism and communism with the best bits of both would be fantastic but that’s just me , yes we have problems with and from capitalism but let’s be fair it’s also brought a lot of good , peoples lives have improved beyond measure in the last 100 years , we live longer , we have better quality of life , there’s a long list I could write of the positives to balance against the negative s of which there are many too , tear it down or improve it? Capitalism would be ok if its regulated. Its when the elites get too greedy that effs everything up. When they complain about "human rights", "red tape" and "elf and safety" what they really mean is that instead of making £1m they could make £2m if they didn't have to bother about stuff that might hurt people. They'd still be rich, but they could be richer if they didn't have rules and regulations to adhere to. I'll give you an example; I have worked in the food industry for over 40 years. When I first started we were allowed to use E numbers. Remember them? They were chemicals that were used to give colour to sweets, drinks, biscuits, confectionery etc. Manufacturers knew that this stuff was pretty toxic but it made their products look better and appeal to kids. When governments around the world started to cave in to pressure from health experts and families and restricted usage, the big corporations who own most of the food manufacturers, fought, lobbied, bribed and did everything they could to continue using a product that they knew was toxic to kids. Its happening now with pesticides. The big corps lobby, bribe, donate to political parties to be able to use more and more poisonous chemicals in order to make bigger profits. Again, the CEO's, Directors and major investors know that more people will die from cancer but are happy about that because the profit margin will be slightly better. Shareholder value is more important than "elf and safety". Capitalists cannot be trusted because profit is the driving force. Regulation is the one thing that can make it work for the benefit of us all. We pump ? into our rivers and seas every day because a few people might be slightly less rich than they currently are if they had to pay to process the stuff better. They'd still be rich. They'd still have more money than they could ever spend, but I'd be able to take my grandkids for a paddle in the local brook without worrying about it. Regulating capitalism is not communism, its making capitalism work for everyone, not just the establishment, the elites, the oligarchs, the tax dodgers in their off shore havens. Capitalism can work if you have transparency, democracy, human rights and basic decency to regulate it. Stive Pesley, Frogram, Reggie Greenwood and 4 others 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 5 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: Capitalism would be ok if its regulated. Its when the elites get too greedy that effs everything up. When they complain about "human rights", "red tape" and "elf and safety" what they really mean is that instead of making £1m they could make £2m if they didn't have to bother about stuff that might hurt people. They'd still be rich, but they could be richer if they didn't have rules and regulations to adhere to. I'll give you an example; I have worked in the food industry for over 40 years. When I first started we were allowed to use E numbers. Remember them? They were chemicals that were used to give colour to sweets, drinks, biscuits, confectionery etc. Manufacturers knew that this stuff was pretty toxic but it made their products look better and appeal to kids. When governments around the world started to cave in to pressure from health experts and families and restricted usage, the big corporations who own most of the food manufacturers, fought, lobbied, bribed and did everything they could to continue using a product that they knew was toxic to kids. Its happening now with pesticides. The big corps lobby, bribe, donate to political parties to be able to use more and more poisonous chemicals in order to make bigger profits. Again, the CEO's, Directors and major investors know that more people will die from cancer but are happy about that because the profit margin will be slightly better. Shareholder value is more important than "elf and safety". Capitalists cannot be trusted because profit is the driving force. Regulation is the one thing that can make it work for the benefit of us all. We pump ? into our rivers and seas every day because a few people might be slightly less rich than they currently are if they had to pay to process the stuff better. They'd still be rich. They'd still have more money than they could ever spend, but I'd be able to take my grandkids for a paddle in the local brook without worrying about it. Regulating capitalism is not communism, its making capitalism work for everyone, not just the establishment, the elites, the oligarchs, the tax dodgers in their off shore havens. Capitalism can work if you have transparency, democracy, human rights and basic decency to regulate it. Pretty much my view , as I said a hybrid of capitalism and communism would be my idea of utopia but the downfall of both seems to be greed and corruption, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 7 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: They'd still be rich. They'd still have more money than they could ever spend, but I'd be able to take my grandkids for a paddle in the local brook without worrying about it. Regulating capitalism is not communism, its making capitalism work for everyone, not just the establishment, the elites, the oligarchs, the tax dodgers in their off shore havens. Capitalism can work if you have transparency, democracy, human rights and basic decency to regulate it. Cracking post uttox, Just to add, When I was Senior Union Official at RR the overtime was what we called "open doors" you worked as much or as less as you wanted, Then during leaner times overtime was limited, There'd be a roster and all would take a turn if they wanted to. I had a couple of incidents where 1 hour, Yes 1 hour and there was a very strong verbal fight between 2 fellow workers, The person not getting the hour accused the other of greed and offered to meet him in the car park, The day before the accuser had done 6 hours overtime at another area of RR. The 2nd incident was where a fellow worker stayed behind in the toilet as he knew the next shift were short of staff in his area, He got 2 hours. What I'm trying to say is...money affects most, The more you have the more you want, It's a disease, The people I represented were some of the best paid in Derby on the shop floor...Crazy. uttoxram75 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 On 04/11/2022 at 08:53, Archied said: The key word in your post is believe They believe that the science is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 20 minutes ago, Crewton said: They believe that the science is correct. They believe THEY RE science is correct ?, and no not 97% of climate scientists/ scientists ,97% of a small sample Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, Archied said: They believe THEY RE science is correct ?, and no not 97% of climate scientists/ scientists ,97% of a small sample There were plenty of people who thought that the hole in the ozone layer wasn't man-made either and that the Montreal Protocol was an unnecessary financial burden on industrial societies. Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 48 minutes ago, Archied said: They believe THEY RE science is correct ?, and no not 97% of climate scientists/ scientists ,97% of a small sample You've mentioned this notion before. What makes you believe that the sample of climate scientists is small? Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Presumably you'll agree that it's the opinion of qualified climate scientists that is most relevant when talking about climate. Generally when people are referring to the enormous consensus that exists, they are referring to all climate scientists currently producing work in the field. Literally thousands upon thousands of scientific papers. How are you translating this exhaustive analysis of all the relevant scientific papers in the relevant subject area, into your concept of a 'small sample'? GboroRam and Crewton 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Ram Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Science gets more things' wrong, than right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 32 minutes ago, Highgate said: You've mentioned this notion before. What makes you believe that the sample of climate scientists is small? Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Presumably you'll agree that it's the opinion of qualified climate scientists that is most relevant when talking about climate. Generally when people are referring to the enormous consensus that exists, they are referring to all climate scientists currently producing work in the field. Literally thousands upon thousands of scientific papers. How are you translating this exhaustive analysis of all the relevant scientific papers in the relevant subject area, into your concept of a 'small sample'? If your serious just research it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Archied said: If your serious just research it That's my point really. I have researched it. I'm asking where you your idea from, as it's controversial to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, I am Ram said: Science gets more things' wrong, than right. And yet accumulated an impressive body of knowledge over time. So much so that we are able to land a probe on a comet nearly a half a billion kilometres away from Earth. How hard would that be without science? If you don't trust the scientists who do we believe when it comes to climate change? Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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