The Ukraine War

[Crewton]

23 hours ago, Crewton said:

Coup? Do you mean the Maidan popular revolution?

Yanukovych bowed (he said) to "economic pressure and blackmail" from Moscow to drop plans he'd previously supported for Ukraine to sign a free trade and association agreement with the EU, setting himself against the will of the people. He ordered police to break up the protest camp in Independence Square, which they attacked several times, and when eventually those protesters marched on Parliament, the police opened fire and killed nearly a 100 people. Yanukovych subsequently fled into exile in Russia in order to protect himself from arrest. Following his arrest, the extent of Yanukovych's corruption and robbery from the state was revealed : the private estate, the luxury "pirate boat", the holiday home under construction in the Crimea, the $141M in a Swiss bank account....the list goes on and on. He also signed off a further 25 year lease for the Russian Black Sea Fleet base on Crimea, which has proved mightily handy to Putin.

Ukrainians would be quite happy if Russia had never interferred in their lives.

Ten years ago - a timely reminder:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/20/maidan-kyiv-protests-10-years-ukraine

[Crewton]

15 minutes ago, Alph said:

Three, turn the heat and attention back to this conflict because public support for funding Ukraine was starting to change? Like with any war, the general public soon become numb to the images and news stories and attention turns to how it's effecting them? Especially with what's going on in ME, the Putin interview etc was the public shockingly losing sympathy for Ukraine? 

If the pressure can go hard on this story that evil Putin killed a saint who would have freed Russia from tyranny then we're back on to "this must be stopped!" 

Not saying I have a problem with that spin. Not in the slightest. 

Gaza is still the headline story on the BBC Today programme this morning (so far, they've had several pieces covering different aspects), the Guardian still has it's live blog going, diplomatic efforts are continuing at the UN and among regional players to de-escalate the conflict and prevent Israel from attacking Raffah.

Navalny is a secondary story today, so your hysterical theory appears to be groundless. I'd be astonished if the murder of a notable politician in one of the world's largest countries didn't make the headlines for a few days.

[Alph]

26 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Gaza is still the headline story on the BBC Today programme this morning (so far, they've had several pieces covering different aspects), the Guardian still has it's live blog going, diplomatic efforts are continuing at the UN and among regional players to de-escalate the conflict and prevent Israel from attacking Raffah.

Navalny is a secondary story today, so your hysterical theory appears to be groundless. I'd be astonished if the murder of a notable politician in one of the world's largest countries didn't make the headlines for a few days.

Get a grip. I'm not hysterical. I don't read the Guardian.

I'm actually sympathising with Ukraine as some of the comments and narratives I've seen has kind of been to question "why should we support the West when they've shown such hypocrisy". Something which I disagree with as I'm Anti War unless that nation is acting in self defence. Which Ukraine is. 

And people have questioned how long we will continue to fund a a fight against Russia that we will likely not get the result we want. Again, I disagree because you know, I think Russia is the other side of the coin from America and therefore just as repulsive. So you should fund Ukraine for as long as they need it and for as long as you can. 

Now. I refuse to argue with polemicists who are just on their soapbox about the whole thing. It's only a little war.  So I'll leave you to your thread as clearly I'm not allowed to provide theory or context. So I won't engage any further. You can continue your hate filled rants against an aggressive state with an insane leader. I hate that kind of thing.

I'm joking of course. At 38 I'm a little to old to be stomping off slamming doors. But i wanted a diva moment too. I see why you do it. I feel amazing

 

(Oh, you also missed the part where I said I had no problem with it.)

Edited February 20 by Alph

[Crewton]

50 minutes ago, Alph said:

Get a grip. I'm not hysterical. I don't read the Guardian.

I'm actually sympathising with Ukraine as some of the comments and narratives I've seen has kind of been to question "why should we support the West when they've shown such hypocrisy". Something which I disagree with as I'm Anti War unless that nation is acting in self defence. Which Ukraine is. 

And people have questioned how long we will continue to fund a a fight against Russia that we will likely not get the result we want. Again, I disagree because you know, I think Russia is the other side of the coin from America and therefore just as repulsive. So you should fund Ukraine for as long as they need it and for as long as you can. 

Now. I refuse to argue with polemicists who are just on their soapbox about the whole thing. It's only a little war.  So I'll leave you to your thread as clearly I'm not allowed to provide theory or context. So I won't engage any further. You can continue your hate filled rants against an aggressive state with an insane leader. I hate that kind of thing.

I'm joking of course. At 38 I'm a little to old to be stomping off slamming doors. But i wanted a diva moment too. I see why you do it. I feel amazing

 

(Oh, you also missed the part where I said I had no problem with it.)

I apologise if I misinterpreted the thrust of your post, but your explanation really doesn't come across in the OP. 

As for me being "on my soapbox" - what irony! - you're actually the poster with the 2nd highest number of posts in this topic. I doubt that I even make the top 10, so it's not much of a soapbox is it? Like many threads, I read it occasionally to check out posts from the likes of @Ramarena and post sometimes when I see other posts that to me are inaccurate but if I'm seen as a "polemicist" I don't mind that at all because in this conflict the overwhelming proportion of the blame lies with Moscow.

 

[Alph]

35 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I apologise if I misinterpreted the thrust of your post, but your explanation really doesn't come across in the OP. 

As for me being "on my soapbox" - what irony! - you're actually the poster with the 2nd highest number of posts in this topic. I doubt that I even make the top 10, so it's not much of a soapbox is it? Like many threads, I read it occasionally to check out posts from the likes of @Ramarena and post sometimes when I see other posts that to me are inaccurate but if I'm seen as a "polemicist" I don't mind that at all because in this conflict the overwhelming proportion of the blame lies with Moscow.

 

You missed my joke. That's what you accused people of in the Palestine thread. I had to Google Polemicist after you said it. I'm a humble plasterer... 

I have no problem with anybody criticising Russia/Putin. I spoke early in the thread about what America/NATO could have perhaps acknowledged and about groups like Azov and situations in Donbas etc that the media forgot to mention. But ultimately there's nothing that justified this warmonger Putin. So there's zero will from me to argue against anyone criticising him now after the horrific war crimes in the the name of national security. 

There has been a dip in support for Ukraine and I have seen much about how The West have no moral high ground etc. Even if I agree on some of it I only see how it is being used to undermine Western influence on world affairs. Which again, I'm usually on that side of the argument. But too many people (some independent journalists for example) are losing sight of the Ukrainian plight

Stive asked if there's truth to Navalny being less than perfect. Which there is. But it's not being reported. I figure the reason is because this whole story can be used as a reminder of what Putin is. 

So they're running hard with it. Cameron suddenly remembers what a war crime is for example. It makes sense that Navalny be presented as this great democratic hope of Russia even if it's not quite true. I don't have a problem with it at all. He's better than Putin. 

My post wasn't meant to be a snide dig over the Gaza war. (I did that already). It was me putting forward another reason that the press have "bigged him up". 

I see now there's a great wave of support for Navalny's wife. Again, no problem. But that's not all just sympathy. It's supporting another headache for Putin. Makes sense. I just hope she doesn't find herself in some "accident". 

[Ram-Alf]

4 minutes ago, Alph said:

I see now there's a great wave of support for Navalny's wife. Again, no problem. But that's not all just sympathy. It's supporting another headache for Putin. Makes sense. I just hope she doesn't find herself in some "accident". 

Be wary of free holidays in a Penthouse suit or parking your car in a Spanish car park 👎

[Alph]

I apologise if this is in some of the links posted in the thread. 

The timing of this Navalny death with the Assange case? Not coincidence? Convenient cover for either side? 

[Ram-Alf]

33 minutes ago, Alph said:

I apologise if this is in some of the links posted in the thread. 

The timing of this Navalny death with the Assange case? Not coincidence? Convenient cover for either side? 

Is this right, You're saying/guessing Navalny's "murder" was used as a cover because Assange appeal on extradition to the USA 

[Alph]

34 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

Is this right, You're saying/guessing Navalny's "murder" was used as a cover because Assange appeal on extradition to the USA 

Probably more the other way if I give my thoughts. That Putin perhaps thought the backlash could be swallowed up by coverage/debate the Assange case. Because I've seen"Assange is the West's Navalny" type stuff. 

Or not. Coincidence then? I was genuinely asking. 

I think it was The Times and an interview with Tariq Ali I saw this morning had that kind of headline. 

 

[Stive Pesley]

22 minutes ago, Alph said:

I've seen"Assange is the West's Navalny" type stuff. 

No, no, no - Our Navalny is Donald Trump (apparently)! 😂

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Alph said:

You missed my joke. That's what you accused people of in the Palestine thread. I had to Google Polemicist after you said it. I'm a humble plasterer... 

I have no problem with anybody criticising Russia/Putin. I spoke early in the thread about what America/NATO could have perhaps acknowledged and about groups like Azov and situations in Donbas etc that the media forgot to mention. But ultimately there's nothing that justified this warmonger Putin. So there's zero will from me to argue against anyone criticising him now after the horrific war crimes in the the name of national security. 

There has been a dip in support for Ukraine and I have seen much about how The West have no moral high ground etc. Even if I agree on some of it I only see how it is being used to undermine Western influence on world affairs. Which again, I'm usually on that side of the argument. But too many people (some independent journalists for example) are losing sight of the Ukrainian plight

Stive asked if there's truth to Navalny being less than perfect. Which there is. But it's not being reported. I figure the reason is because this whole story can be used as a reminder of what Putin is. 

So they're running hard with it. Cameron suddenly remembers what a war crime is for example. It makes sense that Navalny be presented as this great democratic hope of Russia even if it's not quite true. I don't have a problem with it at all. He's better than Putin. 

My post wasn't meant to be a snide dig over the Gaza war. (I did that already). It was me putting forward another reason that the press have "bigged him up". 

I see now there's a great wave of support for Navalny's wife. Again, no problem. But that's not all just sympathy. It's supporting another headache for Putin. Makes sense. I just hope she doesn't find herself in some "accident". 

What is it , I’m just a humble roofer ( not so humble Leadworker ) and can’t be arsed to Google it🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited February 20 by Archied

[Alph]

29 minutes ago, Archied said:

What is it , I’m just a humble roofer ( not so humble Leadworker ) and can’t be arsed to Google it🤷🏻‍♂️

Somebody who likes to engage in controversial debates. 

I think, Piers Morgan might be their leader. Katie Hopkins deputy. 

It's not great when you need Google to understand what's being said, is it. But at least I was smart enough to pick an indoor job in the UK. 😛

[Alph]

54 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

No, no, no - Our Navalny is Donald Trump (apparently)! 😂

 

I'm definitely not going to say I hope it ends the same way because that would be pretty sick. 

So I'm not going to say it

[Highgate]

19 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Anyone know the deal with Navalny?

Seems to be being lauded as a martyr in the western press, purely because he was an opponent of Putin

But then I've also read that he was quite an extremist right winger with racist views

And then also read that this is misinformation from the Putin regime to discredit him

So a genuine question. Killing your political opponents is not a great look (although Putin's mate Tucker Carlson has shrugged it off as "all leaders kill their opponents, deal with it") but just because he was an opponent of Putin doesn't immediately make him a good guy. The world is more complex than that

I think it's right to ask those questions. Navalny clearly seems to have been involved with the far right groups when he was younger and said some extremely racist and homophobic things. That's an undeniable fact. Whether he still held those views now is another question. The fact that he hasn't openly disavowed those earlier statements or apologized is obviously problematic.  It's fair to say he wasn't another Boris Nemtsov. 

On the other hand compared to Putin, everyone seems like a good option.  Navalny's 15 point manifesto released from prison last year certainly makes for refreshing reading when you compare it to the current regime. 

https://www.dupuyinstitute.org/blog/2023/02/20/alexey-navalnys-15-point-tweet/

In it he emphasized that the invasion of Ukraine is a war crime and talks about ending the war and reimbursing Ukraine for the damage caused. He also wanted Russia to be a democratic Republic with open fair elections that established friendly relations with it's European neighbours. 

He does mention social justice, but we are left wondering if he meant social justice for 'everyone'.  Maybe he really did...who knows. 

Either way, I think it's impossible not to be impressed with his commitment to opposing Putin. Knowing that Putin would probably have him killed or at best banished to a Siberian prison and yet returning to Russia regardless was an amazing act of defiance. 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Alph said:

Probably more the other way if I give my thoughts. That Putin perhaps thought the backlash could be swallowed up by coverage/debate the Assange case. Because I've seen"Assange is the West's Navalny" type stuff. 

Or not. Coincidence then? I was genuinely asking. 

I think it was The Times and an interview with Tariq Ali I saw this morning had that kind of headline. 

 

Got to be honest with you Alph...that's come from way out left field😉, But stranger things have happened in the world of Politics and Assassinations/Murders 👍

[Ramarena]

6 hours ago, Alph said:

Three, turn the heat and attention back to this conflict because public support for funding Ukraine was starting to change? Like with any war, the general public soon become numb to the images and news stories and attention turns to how it's effecting them? Especially with what's going on in ME, the Putin interview etc was the public shockingly losing sympathy for Ukraine? 

If the pressure can go hard on this story that evil Putin killed a saint who would have freed Russia from tyranny then we're back on to "this must be stopped!" 

Not saying I have a problem with that spin. Not in the slightest. 

As is natural in these situations, attention is fading as the war enters its third year and support for funding will invariably take a hit. The same will probably happen with the Palestine/Israel situation. The average person isnt directly affected despite the injustices and the desire to help fades.

Now is the Navalny situation being milked by the media? maybe.

But it’s also a pretty big international story in a country that’s currently occupying another, ahead of the Russian “election”, so some dedication to it is justified.

Edited February 20 by Ramarena

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Alph said:

Somebody who likes to engage in controversial debates. 

I think, Piers Morgan might be their leader. Katie Hopkins deputy. 

It's not great when you need Google to understand what's being said, is it. But at least I was smart enough to pick an indoor job in the UK. 😛

Tell me about it ,,,, then people wonder why I’m all for global warming 😂

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

I think it's right to ask those questions. Navalny clearly seems to have been involved with the far right groups when he was younger and said some extremely racist and homophobic things. That's an undeniable fact. Whether he still held those views now is another question. The fact that he hasn't openly disavowed those earlier statements or apologized is obviously problematic.  It's fair to say he wasn't another Boris Nemtsov. 

On the other hand compared to Putin, everyone seems like a good option.  Navalny's 15 point manifesto released from prison last year certainly makes for refreshing reading when you compare it to the current regime. 

https://www.dupuyinstitute.org/blog/2023/02/20/alexey-navalnys-15-point-tweet/

In it he emphasized that the invasion of Ukraine is a war crime and talks about ending the war and reimbursing Ukraine for the damage caused. He also wanted Russia to be a democratic Republic with open fair elections that established friendly relations with it's European neighbours. 

He does mention social justice, but we are left wondering if he meant social justice for 'everyone'.  Maybe he really did...who knows. 

Either way, I think it's impossible not to be impressed with his commitment to opposing Putin. Knowing that Putin would probably have him killed or at best banished to a Siberian prison and yet returning to Russia regardless was an amazing act of defiance. 

It’s a tough one that because rightly or wrongly we could never accept someone like Tommy Robinson apologising and saying he no longer holds those kind of views 

[Highgate]

7 hours ago, Archied said:

It’s a tough one that because rightly or wrongly we could never accept someone like Tommy Robinson apologising and saying he no longer holds those kind of views 

I know nothing about that man, I've only ever heard about him on here really.  Generally speaking if someone was apologizing for their previous beliefs which they genuinely no longer hold...then we should be able to accept them. But I guess it would be a gradual process and people would need some convincing.

As for Navalny, I don't know to what extent he held onto the racist views of his youth, whether he changed his mind completely, partially or not at all. But given his view that the invasion of Ukraine was an illegal war crime and his support for making Russia an actual functioning democracy he would certainly have been an improvement on Putin. 

 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

I know nothing about that man, I've only ever heard about him on here really.  Generally speaking if someone was apologizing for their previous beliefs which they genuinely no longer hold...then we should be able to accept them. But I guess it would be a gradual process and people would need some convincing.

As for Navalny, I don't know to what extent he held onto the racist views of his youth, whether he changed his mind completely, partially or not at all. But given his view that the invasion of Ukraine was an illegal war crime and his support for making Russia an actual functioning democracy he would certainly have been an improvement on Putin. 

 

I know nothing really of navalny , was just a general point really , there may be many in Russia who see what he would bring to Russia very differently, we tend to covertly install leaders and regimes in countries over the years who turn out to be total disasters for the people of said countries and eventually ourselves and other countries around them just because they suit our needs better at the time, I see people out on the streets in this country being very partisan in support of Palestine and very anti Israel where in reality if they lived in the former they would be killed or imprisoned because of who they are , obviously I can’t condone the deaths in Palestine or Israel ,it’s a ducking mess but we too often jump without looking