The Administration Thread

[kevinhectoring]

22 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

how deep do the arbiters delve before coming to their decision. 

I don’t think they delve. I think they look at the arguments and evidence presented by the parties and evaluate the strengths of each. 

[duncanjwitham]

11 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I think this is the only way to completely sort the issue, and that this is what is being discussed. And that the proposed timescale will not be met because agreeing the framework with M/W will be like pinning jelly to the ceiling 

The problem is, as of last week, we were refusing to acknowledge that they should be allowed to make these claims.  So it seems pretty unlikely we've done much in the way of preparation to argue the cases.  If we're suddenly doing the full hearing this week, that gives us barely more than a week to hire and brief lawyers, find and brief expert witnesses, prepare all the arguments, source all the documentation we need and so on.  I'd be amazed if that is what we're doing. 

 

[Gritstone Ram]

With the liquidation threat Middle Borough could be backing themselves into a corner or they may look to delay until the end of the season depending on their result against us on 12 February. If they win us at football they could stand to lose 4 points if we don’t finish the season. If they lose and they force the liquidation other clubs around the play offs lose points then they could start being pursued by them due to their action preventing a take over and forcing our end. 

[kevinhectoring]

20 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The problem is, as of last week, we were refusing to acknowledge that they should be allowed to make these claims.  So it seems pretty unlikely we've done much in the way of preparation to argue the cases.  If we're suddenly doing the full hearing this week, that gives us barely more than a week to hire and brief lawyers, find and brief expert witnesses, prepare all the arguments, source all the documentation we need and so on.  I'd be amazed if that is what we're doing. 

 

Q had already had 3 QC’s opinions confirming that the claims are drivel. But you’ve certainly got a point, our lawyers really need to get this right.
The bigger problem is that M and W will use exactly the same argument to continue to stretch us on the rack of time 

[Sparkle]

4 hours ago, AutoWindscreens said:

I think the precedent for it is that when Boro sued Liverpool over the Ziege transfer, and settled, that was treated as a football debt. But arguably it is different, because that was a transfer claim - they were saying they would have got a higher transfer fee if Liverpool hadn't tapped him up.

Do you remember when Michael Dunford left us and went to Everton as chief executive - Everton immediately signed Craig Short because they activated his release clause which was £2.5 million - Everton paid £2.5 million and one pence - which was the same as the Ziege transfer as they basically knew his erase clause only we don’t go around taking legal action against fellow clubs. 

[Sparkle]

14 hours ago, davenportram said:

That’s how Wimbledon got to move to MK

Someone should just buy Burton Albion and move them to pride park change the name and hey Presto a team in league one with no lead tied to your feet for a fraction of the price - not advocating that but it is that simple 

[Sparkle]

14 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Why? Theres no precedent for it. A football creditor would normally be down to being owed money through ordinary football matters, transfer fees etc. 

Without the claim being judged on its merits as a viable claim and compensation awarded accordingly, I really cant see how it can even be considered as to whether it then becomes a football creditor situation.

I totally agree with you but when you look at all the precedents set by the EFL they seem to change it the very next time a judgement is made - which is extremely worrying and the only real precedent set is the total confusion over their decision making.

[RadioactiveWaste]

2 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Someone should just buy Burton Albion and move them to pride park change the name and hey Presto a team in league one with no lead tied to your feet for a fraction of the price - not advocating that but it is that simple 

That'll annoy the brewers fans.

Whilst it's superficially quite funny, I'd be outraged if anyone seriously suggested it as a way forwards and don't think I could ever support such a club.

 

[Sparkle]

4 hours ago, Needlesh said:

If that's true, we're doomed. No ifs, no buts. Surely this has to be independent? Majority vote between our guy and two guys who's sole purpose and intent is to see us ducked? I've never been so scared for our future as I am this morning.

The EFL will be on our side in this as they can’t want any other outcome 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

1 minute ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

That'll annoy the brewers fans.

Whilst it's superficially quite funny, I'd be outraged if anyone seriously suggested it as a way forwards and don't think I could ever support such a club.

 

It'd be a bit of a marmite idea I suppose.

You'll either love it or hate it.

[Sparkle]

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I still think that IF Boro and/or Wycombe win and IF they are deemed to be football creditors, they will wish to portray themselves as the good guys and knights in shining armour and say something like “We still think you owe us £xx million but, because we are really nice people and don’t want to see a fellow club fold, we’ll accept £x”. 

That’s what they are exactly wanting to do currently but the administrators have been correct telling them no chance you are not entitled to any money 

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said:

They've not slithered away after the transfer window 'slammed shut' so now the parasites' motives are becoming clearer - money or liquidation. Or the real threat of liquidation to get SOME money......where they take their knees off our neck at the 11th hour.

I'm actually heartened by the radio silence from the MP's. They pushed to bring this to a head and almost certainly pushed for the arbitration / civil case - and I would hope that they would have got satisfactory assurances from the EFL that the process that was about to happen would be fair and proper.

As fans, what we could do with is at least some sort of trusted overseer - such as one of the MP's - to have access to a timetable, structure and process so they could at least reassure us that things are progressing and being done fairly even if they can't share details. I'm thinking along the lines of the American chap that oversaw the IRA destroying their arms so they could do it in private but without suspicion.

Was that the same American that purchased them ! 

[Jram]

Just read an interview with the Bristol City chairmen (from last year) and looks like a few clubs will be facing deductions next season

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Clearly the Boro board member can't be involved in nominating the EFL's representative.

I think the EFL's first and only goal is to not be sued at the end of all this. Their secondary goal is "not be replaced by Tracy crouch"

Which leaves the forest fella and the destroyer of football clubs Risdale - anything could happen 

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Slight diversion, but I was re-reading the EFL's statement following our sanction hearing, and the following sections jumped out at me in relation to the Wycombe chairman's statement the other day:

and:

Surely the first one destroys his argument that submitting our accounts would trigger an automatic deduction. It's very clear that submission will trigger a "consideration" and "re-assess" (-ment), not an automatic deduction.  And the second one removes any doubt that the EFL would move us between leagues at that point.  They are on record as stating the fixture lists would have us in the championship, irrespective of what happened with the accounts.  There's no question of any delays affecting anything, since this statement was literally issued at the same time as the requirement to restate.

How did that link in with the ridiculous two sets of fixtures thing that the EFL put out?

[Premier ram]

[duncanjwitham]

Just now, Sparkle said:

How did that link in with the ridiculous two sets of fixtures thing that the EFL put out?

That second paragraph I linked to was the EFL saying that the results of the sanction hearing (and them not appealing it) meant that the default set of fixtures (with us in the championship) was the one they were going to use.  It draws a line under that whole issue.

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

A little background info on P&S (previously FFP)

FFP was introduced in the 12/13 season with the monitoring period over just a single season. In the 12/13 season, accounts for the 11/12 season were submitted, in 13/14 the 12/13 accounts were submitted, etc...
It was voted in by 21 of the 24 Championship clubs.

Clubs who exceeded the allowable limits were punished, with the penalty being different if promoted or not.
If relegated from the PL - not subject to penalties for losses in PL
If promoted to the PL - the club was fined a proportion of their overspend, with the money then being distributed evenly with the compliant clubs.
If remaining in the Championship - embargoes
If relegated to L1 - Will not be punished by a fine or embargo, but will not receive the 'Fair Play Tax'.

 

Under FFP, we'd owe a total of £12.36m for the three breaches IF PROMOTED.
3Y to 2017 - £4.89m
3Y to 2019 - £6.61m
4Y to 2021 - £0.86m

 

However, a year later, due to 'unknown reasons' (PL) the Fair Play Tax would no longer go to compliant clubs but to charity instead. This was implemented without a vote!

Due to so many teams exceeding the limits and clubs coming down with parachute payments, clubs threatened the EFL with legal action resulting in P&S being implemented.

Please also note, the vast increase in the size of parachute payments:
12/13 - £48m over 4 years (£12m per season)
13/14 - £57m over 4 years (£14.25m per season)
16/17 - £90m over 3 years (£30m per season!!!)

I believe the premier league objected to the fair play tax being distributed to other clubs and had it stopped 

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

31 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

The EFL will be on our side in this as they can’t want any other outcome 

Totally agree! They will want this all to go away so they can their cushy lives being paid very well to do actually very little without all this scrutiny.

[RadioactiveWaste]

41 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

It'd be a bit of a marmite idea I suppose.

You'll either love it or hate it.

You're right, it's like marmite - something so fundamentally evil and wrong that it's continued existence and popularity is a sure sign of humanities condemnation in the eyes of the lord.

*Not a marmite fan*