1971-72 season scrapbook

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

Can you imagine the reaction on here?

"We're not good enough"

"We'll never acheive anything with that goalie"

"Sack the manager!"

And people singling out their scapegoat too...gather John McGovern used to cop for a bit which might in part explain why he's embraced Forest so much since leaving us.

20 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

The move to do just that had already begun Angie. Jack Kirkland from Belper was acquiring shares in the club. When he was allowed to buy the shares from the estate of the late club chairman, Oswald Jackson, he became the second largest shareholder, which soon found him a seat on the board. He was bitter that Clough had engineered the removal of his brother, Bob, from the board in 1970 and was telling associates that he was out to get Clough. He achieved his goal in less than two years. In doing so, he terminated the club's glory days by some 20 years. We were deprived of watching more league championship titles and undoubtedly we would have won the European Cup well before 1979. Kirkland became as hated as Clough and Taylor were loved in Derbyshire.

It boggles the mind how one man's ego can purely be focused on getting rid of such a successful setup. Either Kirkland believed the club would stay successful long after Clough (a tall order in a manager dominated age) or he wasn't bothered by the collateral damage. From what I've read, there were shades of grey in the Longson v Clough conflict but at least Sam funded the big signings that Clough wanted. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

but at least Sam funded the big signings that Clough wanted. 

But he didn't. Except for buying his shares, Sam never put a penny into the club. The investment in players was generated by the number of fans that Clough and Taylor brought through the gate. The first real benefactor of Derby County was Lionel Pickering many years later.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Guest

[Sufferingfool]

Fascinating. I note earlier that Clough was unhappy with falling gates @ 35,000?. We’re the club not found guilty of cooking the books re attendances and could this have been a ploy by Clough to pack more in. Having stood on the pop side in a 25,000 + attendance and found it cramped to say the least what was it like when there were 35,000+ crammed in and do those who were there think attendances were bigger than stated?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

And people singling out their scapegoat too...gather John McGovern used to cop for a bit which might in part explain why he's embraced Forest so much since leaving us.

It boggles the mind how one man's ego can purely be focused on getting rid of such a successful setup. Either Kirkland believed the club would stay successful long after Clough (a tall order in a manager dominated age) or he wasn't bothered by the collateral damage. From what I've read, there were shades of grey in the Longson v Clough conflict but at least Sam funded the big signings that Clough wanted. 

From what I've heard from a few older Forest fans I've worked with over the years, he used to get a right hammering there even when they had were winning trophies.  I think the truth is he never got over leaving the Rams for such a backwater and had to bury his medals from here in the garden, then undergo a lobotomy for the years up to 1973 to purge himself of it.

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

And people singling out their scapegoat too...gather John McGovern used to cop for a bit which might in part explain why he's embraced Forest so much since leaving us.

 

Filbert Street FA Cup 2nd replay, It was McGoverns back pass that cost us the match and lost 1-0, Fans are unforgiving and their memories never fade...I was there, Coming out of the ground hearing the song "good old Arsenal we're proud to say that name" ?

[Ram-Alf]

30 minutes ago, Sufferingfool said:

Fascinating. I note earlier that Clough was unhappy with falling gates @ 35,000?. We’re the club not found guilty of cooking the books re attendances and could this have been a ploy by Clough to pack more in. Having stood on the pop side in a 25,000 + attendance and found it cramped to say the least what was it like when there were 35,000+ crammed in and do those who were there think attendances were bigger than stated?

And 41,000+ against Spurs, Yes always thought there was more that when the crowd size was announced as we were leaving the ground.

[Guest]

On 27/11/2021 at 11:36, Sufferingfool said:

Fascinating. I note earlier that Clough was unhappy with falling gates @ 35,000?. We’re the club not found guilty of cooking the books re attendances and could this have been a ploy by Clough to pack more in. Having stood on the pop side in a 25,000 + attendance and found it cramped to say the least what was it like when there were 35,000+ crammed in and do those who were there think attendances were bigger than stated?

The charges the club were found guilty of in 1970 included one where £3k taken at the ticket office for one all-ticket cup game had gone missing. The club found that discrepancy in it own internal investigation. There was not an allegation of systemic under declaration of gate receipts.

However, unlike today, the away club was entitled to a share of the home receipts for league games. There was a feeling shared by all football fans that every club under declared the true gate figures in order to retain more for themselves. Without the technology of the 21st century, there was no audit trail from which these suspicions could be proved.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Guest

[Crewton]

On 27/11/2021 at 12:11, Unlucky Alf said:

And 41,000+ against Spurs, Yes always thought there was more that when the crowd size was announced as we were leaving the ground.

It could feel different depending on where you stood on any particular day. For example, I was in the Colombo for that game vs Spurs, and it didn't feel half as cramped as it did in exactly the same spot for the title decider against Liverpool 2 seasons later, when the gate was supposedly 3,000 less. I'd also have said that there were fewer there for that Spurs game than there was for the game against Everton a few weeks earlier, though I think the Everton attendance was 'only' around 37,000 I think.

[Foreveram]

I was in the Ossie end for the Spurs game at the back near the floodlight and it was probably the  most crushed I have ever been at a match but having seen footage on YouTube etc other areas of the ground don’t seem so bad. 

 

[Guest]

On 27/11/2021 at 11:47, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

And people singling out their scapegoat too...gather John McGovern used to cop for a bit which might in part explain why he's embraced Forest so much since leaving us.

 

There were some Derby fans who always had to have a whipping boy. McGovern was the main target but O'Hare and Hinton also had their detractors. Clough used to refer to those supporters as the blind idiots. McGovern scored a goal against Southampton in a 2-2 draw at the BBG early in the 1971-2 championship and he describes his goal celebration in his autobiography:

'Kevin Hector raced across and picked me up in celebration, turning me to face the pop side where the fanatics were actually starting to applaud. I gave them a double V sign in return as my anger exploded.

'Duck you I shouted at the top of my voice.

'Not a wise decision was a comment made to me after the game by a few concerned friend. I didn't give a monkey's and was determined they would never put me off doing what I wanted to do. The louder they criticised  the more determined I knew I would be.'

McGovern believes that the reason his detractors disliked him was that he had an unusually awkward running gait. It was not until late in his career that he discovered the reason for this. He was born with a muscle missing from one of his shoulders. He declined corrective surgery, reasoning that he had won so much in his career despite this deformity that he didn't have to subject himself to the surgeon's; knife now.

Brian Clough took McGovern to every club he managed except Brighton - McGovern refused that offer as he didn't want to drop down to the third division. By 1980, when he lifted the European Cup for the second time, along with some Liverpool players, McGovern was the most decorated club player of the previous decade.

Who was right about McGovern?  Brian Clough and Peter Taylor or those Derby fans who never took to him?

Make your own mind up.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

On 27/11/2021 at 12:05, Unlucky Alf said:

Filbert Street FA Cup 2nd replay, It was McGoverns back pass that cost us the match and lost 1-0, Fans are unforgiving and their memories never fade...I was there, Coming out of the ground hearing the song "good old Arsenal we're proud to say that name" ?

In John McGovern's autobiography 'From Bo'ness To The Bernabeu' he writes a whole chapter called 'Costing Cloughie A Cup Final.'

As we will see as this excellent scrapbook continues I, among others, am of the view that the cup defeat took us down the spur that led to the winning of the League title In that respect McGovern's mistake can be seen as a catalytic moment where out of adversity came good.

[uttoxram75]

45 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

There were some Derby fans who always had to have a whipping boy. McGovern was the main target but O'Hare and Hinton also had their detractors. Clough used to refer to those supporters as the blind idiots. McGovern scored a goal against Southampton in a 2-2 draw at the BBG early in the 1971-2 championship and he describes his goal celebration in his autobiography:

'Kevin Hector raced across and picked me up in celebration, turning me to face the pop side where the fanatics were actually starting to applaud. I gave them a double V sign in return as my anger exploded.

'Duck you I shouted at the top of my voice.

'Not a wise decision was a comment made to me after the game by a few concerned friend. I didn't give a monkey's and was determined they would never put me off doing what I wanted to do. The louder they criticised  the more determined I knew I would be.'

McGovern believes that the reason his detractors disliked him was that he had an unusually awkward running gait. It was not until late in his career that he discovered the reason for this. He was born with a muscle missing from one of his shoulders. He declined corrective surgery, reasoning that he had won so much in his career despite this deformity that he didn't have to subject himself to the surgeon's; knife now.

Brian Clough took McGovern to every club he managed except Brighton - McGovern refused that offer as he didn't want to drop down to the third division. By 1980, when he lifted the European Cup for the second time, along with some Liverpool players, McGovern was the most decorated club player of the previous decade.

Who was right about McGovern?  Brian Clough and Peter Taylor or those Derby fans who never took to him?

Make your own mind up.

Its always the same.

In modern times I would say John Eustace was a similar player. The majority of his game went unnoticed by some yet his very presence allowed the "better" players to get forward knowing there was someone intelligent enough to plug the gaps and break up play if required.

People sometimes forget its a team game, successful managers don't.

[Ram-Alf]

27 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

In John McGovern's autobiography 'From Bo'ness To The Bernabeu' he writes a whole chapter called 'Costing Cloughie A Cup Final.'

As we will see as this excellent scrapbook continues I, among others, am of the view that the cup defeat took us down the spur that led to the winning of the League title In that respect McGovern's mistake can be seen as a catalytic moment where out of adversity came good.

Just a bit of levity for you.

Do you believe in fairy tales ?

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Brailsford Ram said:

There were some Derby fans who always had to have a whipping boy. McGovern was the main target but O'Hare and Hinton also had their detractors. Clough used to refer to those supporters as the blind idiots. McGovern scored a goal against Southampton in a 2-2 draw at the BBG early in the 1971-2 championship and he describes his goal celebration in his autobiography:

'Kevin Hector raced across and picked me up in celebration, turning me to face the pop side where the fanatics were actually starting to applaud. I gave them a double V sign in return as my anger exploded.

'Duck you I shouted at the top of my voice.

'Not a wise decision was a comment made to me after the game by a few concerned friend. I didn't give a monkey's and was determined they would never put me off doing what I wanted to do. The louder they criticised  the more determined I knew I would be.'

McGovern believes that the reason his detractors disliked him was that he had an unusually awkward running gait. It was not until late in his career that he discovered the reason for this. He was born with a muscle missing from one of his shoulders. He declined corrective surgery, reasoning that he had won so much in his career despite this deformity that he didn't have to subject himself to the surgeon's; knife now.

Brian Clough took McGovern to every club he managed except Brighton - McGovern refused that offer as he didn't want to drop down to the third division. By 1980, when he lifted the European Cup for the second time, along with some Liverpool players, McGovern was the most decorated club player of the previous decade.

Who was right about McGovern?  Brian Clough and Peter Taylor or those Derby fans who never took to him?

Make your own mind up.

I'm not doubting what he wrote in his book, I mean who would write about a fictional incident to make a story sound plausible, Have you ever read the Brimson Brothers books concerning football violence...now that's full of fiction.

And to be fare to JM he was a decent player, Nothing to do with his "gait" that fans took a dislike to him, He was a player that did the horrible stuff that went unnoticed, But the bad things were remembered.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Do you believe in fairy tales ?

Certainly not.

I simply believe that three or more extra games in the FA Cup would probably have been too much for such a small squad, coupled with demands of the matches in the run in to the title. The cup exit helped us in that respect in winning the title. The final would have been a great day out but I preferred us being Champions of England. 

That is the reality.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Have you ever read the Brimson Brothers books concerning football violence...now that's full of fiction.

 

Sorry but I missed out on those titles. I wouldn't give a book about football violence the time of day.

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Sorry but I missed out on those titles. I wouldn't give a book about football violence the time of day.

Neither would I, Just what I heard.

[Crewton]

When McGovern played well, Derby usually won. He was the oil in the machine and those kind of players are often underrated. Daryl Powell filled the same role for Jim Smith. 

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Neither would I, Just what I heard.

There's a lesson to learn there. If you cotton on to what you heard, rather than what you know or believe for yourself, you are in danger of extenuating fairy tales. Beware ???

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

There's a lesson to learn there. If you cotton on to what you heard, rather than what you know or believe for yourself, you are in danger of extenuating fairy tales. Beware ???

I spent a very good portion of my adult life doing what the Brimsons wanted to do, When I said "I heard" that wasn't a fib, It was just some one confirming what I knew.

As for fairy tales watch this space...?