NottsRam77 Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said: Should we talk about the ecological impact of the way crypto mining works? The huge carbon footprint - bitcoin mining consumes more energy than a medium sized European country. And it's getting higher all the time Only the human race could be stupid enough, in a era of dwindling resources, to design a new currency system that eats through the remaining resources at an exponential rate My electricity company seem v proud in telling me every invoice I get that 100% of my electricity needs come from renewable sources to add … allegedly 70% of mined Bitcoin comes from renewable sources but your point is totally valid Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 41 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: It's a ponzi scheme - mugs give them their money and they use that to buy crypto. The scheme only works while crypto is rising at silly rates and can generate the promised interest. So it relies on more and more people "investing" with them Don't go near it. "No brainer" is about right Not regulated, and a total lack of transparency about who they are Incorrect people pay fees and commission to borrow money to leverage trades in order to do this they use decentralised platforms that allow a form of peer to peer lending the fees distributed between the platform and the customers that stake the money there is risk involved as this is all done on smart contracts the platforms … or more reputable ones are insured for millions … they are not regulated and IMO I consider it money I might probably won’t see if it went bad .. so limit my exposure Risk to reward etc Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said: Really ? Give u an example my house gone up 25-30k in 2 years just had it revalued that means that means the hand in your pocket has to find another 25-30k to buy the same average 3 bed semi as I bought 2 years ago … that’s a 10% increase .. in two years what’s caused that ? demand ? inflation ? taking that second point what causes inflation? And in turn what does that say about fixed assets of value ? your house ? Gold? Bitcoin ? im not for one second saying this is the way people should put their life savings into I’m certainly not but for me I can see a future where Bitcoin is used as a genuine asset of wealth more and more hedgfunds and institutions are taking notice Jp Morgan and Morgan Stanley seem to think so but whatever anyone does now is possibly the end of the bull run and if it isn’t we could be close so the last thing I’d do now is buy unless u were planning to hold for the Forseable which I plan to do as others have said I’m not throwing stupid money into it just money that I may have chucked into a crap saver or something .. £50 here and there Yes really, QE isn't necessarily going to cause hyperinflation in the way you're suggesting because it's not as simple as just continually devaluing currency until it goes into a death spiral. That's why you can support QE but see MMT as complete and utter nonsense because fundamentally they operate differently. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what QE entails and how it's supposed to ensure a robust response to capital crises that emerge such as 08 financial crash. You can totally think bitcoin has a future (i think the sheer energy requirements are what's going to kill it in the long run) but to believe in it because you think QE is going to cause mass hyperinflation so best to buy gold, land or bitcoin is a pretty mistaken analysis. JoetheRam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Leeds Ram said: Yes really, QE isn't necessarily going to cause hyperinflation in the way you're suggesting because it's not as simple as just continually devaluing currency until it goes into a death spiral. That's why you can support QE but see MMT as complete and utter nonsense because fundamentally they operate differently. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what QE entails and how it's supposed to ensure a robust response to capital crises that emerge such as 08 financial crash. You can totally think bitcoin has a future (i think the sheer energy requirements are what's going to kill it in the long run) but to believe in it because you think QE is going to cause mass hyperinflation so best to buy gold, land or bitcoin is a pretty mistaken analysis. I believe mainly that is an asset of value now and more so in the future … a more and more likely a digital future the quantive easing is merely a point in time that we’re at that IMO will give some further value to hard assets of value but won’t sculpt their future and is merely in isolation … but it is relevant .. totally relevant. Bitcoin vs gold could be argued that gold is still being mined of which there is an unknown reserve still to be mined. The last Bitcoin is due to to be mined in 2045 .. that’s it .. end of. And within each halving cycle the amount that can mine be mined per day is halved and so creating a natural supply to demand imbalance… hence the cycles of rising prices do I think it’ll replace gold .. duck no bit do I think it has a place in our futures… yes it is what it is … I totally agree re the climate side of things but then we the human race have done many a thing to the detriment of the environment knowing full well the consequences and we continue to do so to this day jeez if it takes our government or any other as long as we have down to stop relying on plastic bags then bitcoin will be long mined out before anything is done to tackle its environmental impact Edited June 9, 2021 by NottsRam77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 On 05/06/2021 at 12:13, Eddie said: Why do you hate the planet? I don’t use plastic bags and my energy company regularly inform me 100% of my electricity comes from renewable sources … ie they get it for free .. at no cost to the environment which kinda takes the piss when they keep putting it up every year lol Eddie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, NottsRam77 said: I don’t use plastic bags and my energy company regularly inform me 100% of my electricity comes from renewable sources … ie they get it for free .. at no cost to the environment which kinda takes the piss when they keep putting it up every year lol All of our energy comes from clockwork pigs. I'm sorry, that should read "Winding up gammons". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 15 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: My electricity company seem v proud in telling me every invoice I get that 100% of my electricity needs come from renewable sources Unsurprisingly, this doesn't appear to be quite as honest as it might be. Not like these big companies to come up with ways to legally lie their way to bigger profits! Incidentally, I also signed up to a 100% renewable power provider - it was more expensive but I thought I was doing a good thing. Then I got an email a year later saying that they had ceased trading and I was being auto-switched to EDF https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-7507443/How-check-100-renewable-electricity-really-green.html 15 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: allegedly 70% of mined Bitcoin comes from renewable sources I think the word allegedly is definitely doing the heavy lifting there ? Again difficult to prove otherwise though, but interesting that all the major power companies are now mining bitcoin with their excess energy. I don't doubt that there is acknowledgement of crypto needing to be more efficient. Is it Ethereum that is trying to change the way it mines to use less power? But anyway - the point is that as BTC gets nearer the 21m limit it takes more and more power to mine the coins and we end up with yet another system that favours the "already rich" who can afford the largest computing power, and craps on the little people who kinda mighta needed that electricity to heat their homes and cook their tea 15 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: the platforms … or more reputable ones are insured for millions … they are not regulated and IMO I consider it money I might probably won’t see if it went bad .. so limit my exposure Yeah that's the only sane way to approach these things - in that way it's exactly the same as gambling. Interesting that they aren't regulated but are insured instead. In the world of crypto where prices can have insane swings, they are insured against you losing your wallet, but not if your wallet suddenly becomes worth buttons because the bubble bursts! NottsRam77 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 About 7 or 8 years ago on a night out after a few beers, an acquaintance spent hours bending my ear about bitcoin. He told me that every single spare penny that he ever gets, he invests. That he was using it as a savings account and had a few grand already invested. That he was looking decades ahead with no intention of responding to fluctuations, if the market dipped he would just buy more because it would inevitably recover. Was like an attempt at religious conversion. I'm not financially aware or confident enough to have listened to him and done as he said. He isn't driving a Bentley yet but maybe he is sitting on millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 38 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: But anyway - the point is that as BTC gets nearer the 21m limit it takes more and more power to mine the coins and we end up with yet another system that favours the "already rich" who can afford the largest computing power, and craps on the little people who kinda mighta needed that electricity to heat their homes and cook their tea You've also got to take in to account that around 20% of all BTC have been lost of the years as well so the theoretical cap for BTC really would be around 16m that would circulate making the currency even more rarer. Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 Like to say to all believers or none believers It’s an interesting premise and point of discussion and enjoy hearing everyone’s views Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasgans/2021/06/09/el-salvador-president-calls-for-a-volcanic-geothermal-bitcoin-mining-plan/?sh=2fda946327ec I think it’s fair to say the crypto world / community are aware of the environmental issues surrounding it future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) Feel like if it had any real future it would be a threat to the $, €, £, ¥... Therefore given governments have been fairly ambivalent over it's usage/governance/mining I don't think they consider it a viable future alternative to fiat currency, which is essentially it's aim. Maybe they're all wrong but I'm minded to take that as a sign that it's not really the future and therefore is essentially just another stock to invest in. One which seems to be growing in the same way any major tech company - Apple/Microsoft/Amazon has, but ultimately it doesn't make anything, nor does it serve a purpose, beyond buying Coke or guns, so I don't see the hype. And it's a disaster for the environment so morally not sure I could support it in clear conscience. Good luck to anyone who rolls the dice and puts their hard earned cash into it, but just know that you're essentially just playing roulette and are not in fact Charlie Sheen in Wall Street. Edited June 10, 2021 by JoetheRam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, JoetheRam said: but ultimately it doesn't make anything, nor does it serve a purpose, beyond buying Coke or guns This is another good point - does anyone holding crypto actually use it to pay for anything? I don't know anyone who does, and I don't think I've ever seen anywhere online offering me the option of paying in BTC. The only people i know holding it, are doing just that. "Currency" trading in a currency that no one uses Which is another reason why I question if it has a serious future. It won't ever become accepted as a currency until "normal" people have a reason to spend it on goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 23 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: My electricity company seem v proud in telling me every invoice I get that 100% of my electricity needs come from renewable sources to add … allegedly 70% of mined Bitcoin comes from renewable sources but your point is totally valid From what I've read, the majority of Bitcoin mining happens in Chinese provinces where the primary source of electricity is burning coal. Crypto and NFTs together now omit more greenhouse gasses than is saved from using solar energy - or, to put it a different way, the world's entire investment in solar energy has been wiped by crypto currencies and NFTs. I've read another paper - from 2018 admittedly, but things aren't changing quickly so I suspect that this may still be true - that mining cryptocurrencies consumes more energy per dollar created than pure gold. In theory, we could live in a world where mining bitcoin and the like is totally renewable. We're very far off that theoretical world at the moment because it's so cheap to burn coal and effectively turn it into something more valuable that doesn't physically exist. I get why people are tempted by the idea of making money, but considering the state of our planet, I think we need to urgently have this conversation more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: This is another good point - does anyone holding crypto actually use it to pay for anything? I don't know anyone who does, and I don't think I've ever seen anywhere online offering me the option of paying in BTC. The only people i know holding it, are doing just that. "Currency" trading in a currency that no one uses Which is another reason why I question if it has a serious future. It won't ever become accepted as a currency until "normal" people have a reason to spend it on goods. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe until recently, in some parts of the world it was possible to walk into a Tesla dealership and buy a car using bitcoin. NottsRam77 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 angieram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: This is another good point - does anyone holding crypto actually use it to pay for anything? I don't know anyone who does, and I don't think I've ever seen anywhere online offering me the option of paying in BTC. The only people i know holding it, are doing just that. "Currency" trading in a currency that no one uses Which is another reason why I question if it has a serious future. It won't ever become accepted as a currency until "normal" people have a reason to spend it on goods. It’s more about the blockchain technology.. the crypto currencies are mainly an asset of worth, allow u to operate on those networks and allow it to be represented as a tradable commodity It’s a big misconception take an example the ethereum network allows people to operate smart contracts and apps to run off the network one some people may be familiar with is the game Sorare that’s a digital football trading card game that runs on the ethereum network On the football theme as it’s closer to home for many of us here there’s a token called chillies.. not sure what network or blockchain it’s on but it’s a token that a host of top clubs have bought into i can’t be bothered to explain how it works but if u google it it’s effectively like a little mini share issue if u will fans can hold the tokens In their club, it can be used for season ticket discounts, match day experience rewards and prize draws it can and they hope it can go a lot lot further one club allowed their token holder fans to pick the side for a pre season friendly !!!! Lol can imagine that here … would be carnage Edited June 10, 2021 by NottsRam77 Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 On 09/06/2021 at 15:43, NottsRam77 said: SwissBorg, nexo and co offer interest rates that are too good to ignore 8% on my gbp … or 0.01 on my post office savings account No brainer Icelandic banks were doing something similar in 2007 until it all went pop. Used to be penny shares back in the 80s. Google polly peck if you've never heard of it for a laugh. Might win, might lose. All smells high risk to me but if you can buy in at a low unit price you can at least limit your losses. I haven't yet been able to work out what stands behind crypto currencies in the way central banks do for notes and coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Icelandic banks were doing something similar in 2007 until it all went pop. Used to be penny shares back in the 80s. Google polly peck if you've never heard of it for a laugh. Might win, might lose. All smells high risk to me but if you can buy in at a low unit price you can at least limit your losses. I haven't yet been able to work out what stands behind crypto currencies in the way central banks do for notes and coins. Remember the Penney shares thing lol them were the days Van der MoodHoover 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 14 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: It’s more about the blockchain technology.. the crypto currencies are mainly an asset of worth, allow u to operate on those networks and allow it to be represented as a tradable commodity It’s a big misconception take an example the ethereum network allows people to operate smart contracts and apps to run off the network Yeah - but in terms of it replacing fiat currencies for day to day life - can you see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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