Is Rooney good for player development ?

[kevinhectoring]

Over his career, Rooney played a number of positions. He didn’t enjoy all of them by any means - he made that known - but he was world class in each.
He has this confused idea that mere mortals can do the same. They can’t. Wisdom was coming into his best form as a CB and all of a sudden he’s pushed away from the deep centre and he becomes a fish out of water. And a liability.   
In the case of the youngsters it causes serious problems in their development.  Sibley, Watson (on debut!), Menghi (on debut!),  and Knight for most of the season, have been played out of position. It makes no sense. Menghi might just be good enough to manage it; the rest are not. 
Many of our recent academy products would have been better served by a loan to a div 1 team to toughen them up and give them confidence.  To play out of position at this level must be seriously demoralising to them.  And as a team we would have been more successful this season if we had not forced players into positions they find unnatural. 

[BIllyD]

It's a results game and we are in danger of being relegated from this league. We haven't got the personnel to be able to loan players out, we are down to the bare bones. He has taken us from being stranded at the bottom of the league, to bring into a position where it's in our own hands to stay up.

Recently results have not been what we wanted to he has moved players around, sometimes it will work sometimes not. Wisdom is not a youngster ?‍♂️ The other are playing in the part of the pitch where it may not bring the best out of them when played out of position but it doesn't stop then passing a ball or tackling a player.
 

Players who can play more than one position will have better careers, look at the top players now and how flexible they can be.

[VulcanRam]

I see all the snowflakes are out in force on the other threads about Watson. He's a professional footballer who got put in the team and asked to do a job for the team. He didn't play that well, but none of them did in the first half. He got subbed so that the team could change shape and try and rescue the game. That's it. 

We're in the poo. We don't have luxuries of giving players exactly what they want or playing them in their "correct" positions all the time. But that's life. If Rooney had gone with Waghorn instead of Watson on the left people would have been moaning. He plays Watson instead of Waghorn. People moan.

Watson doesn't do a great deal, it's all Rooney's fault for playing him out of position (not sure when being played out of a favoured position negates being able to do the basics of trap, pass, work hard or tackle - not saying that Watson didn't, more that people think playing "out of position" somehow causes paralysis)

If all that's enough to mentally scar him, damage him and destroy his development then he's in the wrong trade. What's more likely - not that you'd think it on here - is Rooney explained the situation, Watson was fine with it and appreciated the chance to play, and everyone turns up for work this morning in a good mood.

Those whingeing on Saturday about Rooney's comments on Sibley were strangely quiet after the game last night. Rooney wanted a reaction and he got one. Top man management. 

[minesahartington]

9 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Over his career, Rooney played a number of positions. He didn’t enjoy all of them by any means - he made that known - but he was world class in each.
He has this confused idea that mere mortals can do the same. They can’t. Wisdom was coming into his best form as a CB and all of a sudden he’s pushed away from the deep centre and he becomes a fish out of water. And a liability.   
In the case of the youngsters it causes serious problems in their development.  Sibley, Watson (on debut!), Menghi (on debut!),  and Knight for most of the season, have been played out of position. It makes no sense. Menghi might just be good enough to manage it; the rest are not. 
Many of our recent academy products would have been better served by a loan to a div 1 team to toughen them up and give them confidence.  To play out of position at this level must be seriously demoralising to them.  And as a team we would have been more successful this season if we had not forced players into positions they find unnatural. 

I had a similar thought watching the game. It reminded me of Hoddle showing his players how to do things they were incapable of doing back in the day. Wayne needs to reflect on the capabilities of his players and build that into his thinking

[Comrade 86]

35 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Those whingeing on Saturday about Rooney's comments on Sibley were strangely quiet after the game last night. Rooney wanted a reaction and he got one. Top man management. 

Utter garbage from start to finish ?

[Parsnip]

36 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Those whingeing on Saturday about Rooney's comments on Sibley were strangely quiet after the game last night. Rooney wanted a reaction and he got one. Top man management. 

Damn right. Rooney has managed Sibley really well. 

I have to admit that I was one of those snowflakes suggesting that Sibley should play because he's a goal scorer and we weren't scoring any goals.

Some snowflakes would still argue that had Rooney started playing Sibley earlier in the season then the lad could have 10+ goals, a vital season of experience, we'd be well clear of relegation and we'd have been more enjoyable to watch. 

Rooney's proper shut them (and me) up last night and that's why they've moved on to whinging about Watson. Who by the way has been excellently man managed by Rooney in my opinion. Last night will had done him the world of good.

[cheron85]

9 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Over his career, Rooney played a number of positions. He didn’t enjoy all of them by any means - he made that known - but he was world class in each.
He has this confused idea that mere mortals can do the same. They can’t. 

 

8 minutes ago, minesahartington said:

I had a similar thought watching the game. It reminded me of Hoddle showing his players how to do things they were incapable of doing back in the day. Wayne needs to reflect on the capabilities of his players and build that into his thinking

Is this not the same thing which was levelled at Cocu much of the time? That the brand/style of football he wanted the team to play was much to complex and required more quality than our players had - And therefore we ended up with dross as our players couldn't work out what they were supposed to be doing

I think Rooney needed backup for Byrne - He tried Mengi there and that didn't work so he tried a senior player who played most of his career at RB (Wisdom) and that unbalanced us too

You could argue we'd be better bringing in an actual RB from the u23s but maybe he thought they weren't ready yet? 

Rookie managers are always going to make mistakes - If Rooney doesn't learn from them THEN I'll start to really worry

[Duracell]

Judging Rooney on his player development is like judging an officer's military strategy when they turn up for their first day of the new job - and it's the Battle of the Somme.

We just have to get to the end of this season 21st or above. We are fighting for our lives. Every point must be savoured, and when we lose (which will still happen a lot before the end of the season I'm afraid), we have to keep our heads for the next game. 

This season really reminds me of 2003/04. Everyone remembers the Burley 'years' with affection, but truly, it was a season and a bit of fighting for our lives followed by one season of excellent football.

In 03/04, the team chopped and changed and we broke the record for the most players used in a season. And just like then, one player in midfield changed our fortunes. The difference is, our Leon Osman - Bielik - is out for the season. Would Burley have survived similar happening to Osman? The line between failure and a shot at success are slim.

I will purely judge Rooney on whether we stay up. Thereafter, for me, the goalposts move depending on our general stability as the club: ownership, pre-season, funds, etc.

[Anag Ram]

Rooney is developing too. He, like young players, will make mistakes. 

All he can do when he does is to try to rectify them in the game with subs and after the game with a different starting line up. 

The manager has a pretty impossible job if the eleven players who showed the best form in training, or in the last game, don't then perform on a match day. 

 

[Comrade 86]

29 minutes ago, Beetroot said:

Damn right. Rooney has managed Sibley really well. 

I have to admit that I was one of those snowflakes suggesting that Sibley should play because he's a goal scorer and we weren't scoring any goals.

Some snowflakes would still argue that had Rooney started playing Sibley earlier in the season then the lad could have 10+ goals, a vital season of experience, we'd be well clear of relegation and we'd have been more enjoyable to watch. 

Rooney's proper shut them (and me) up last night and that's why they've moved on to whinging about Watson. Who by the way has been excellently man managed by Rooney in my opinion. Last night will had done him the world of good.

duckin love you, you awesome bit of root veg. That's a @Beetroot special right there. Still chuckling now.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

16 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Rooney is developing too. He, like young players, will make mistakes. 

All he can do when he does is to try to rectify them in the game with subs and after the game with a different starting line up. 

The manager has a pretty impossible job if the eleven players who showed the best form in training, or in the last game, don't then perform on a match day. 

 

What do you think Rooney thinks to Jozwiak? Do you think he's managing him well? 

[Curtains]

9 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

What do you think Rooney thinks to Jozwiak? Do you think he's managing him well? 

How would you manage him 

[Comrade 86]

15 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

What do you think Rooney thinks to Jozwiak? Do you think he's managing him well? 

Agree with a lot of your concerns BEBA but I think Joz has been given chances. The problem for him apart form the settling in and getting used to being kicked to death with zero protection from the ref, is that he's been the only attacking outlet Rooney will play. As such, teams can easily double-up on the lad without leaving gaping holes elsewhere.

I think it will be good for both him and Lawrence that there's some competition for the slot and it'll keep Roberts honest too given Kamil can play either side and hopefully Wazza will now adopt a more positive approach to games than merely setting a system to avoid losing.

I'd also ignore the 'I told you so' merchants, in any case. They were nowhere to be seen at 2-0 down last night and will mystically vanish should Rooney revert to type in the Stoke game anyway.

[minesahartington]

2 hours ago, cheron85 said:

 

Is this not the same thing which was levelled at Cocu much of the time? That the brand/style of football he wanted the team to play was much to complex and required more quality than our players had - And therefore we ended up with dross as our players couldn't work out what they were supposed to be doing

I think Rooney needed backup for Byrne - He tried Mengi there and that didn't work so he tried a senior player who played most of his career at RB (Wisdom) and that unbalanced us too

You could argue we'd be better bringing in an actual RB from the u23s but maybe he thought they weren't ready yet? 

Rookie managers are always going to make mistakes - If Rooney doesn't learn from them THEN I'll start to really worry

Possibly, but Cocu was an experienced successful leading edge coach and Rooney is as you say a Rookie

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 hours ago, Curtains said:

How would you manage him 

He hasn't warranted as many starts as he's had. 

Rooney has been very critical or certain players but as for Jozwiak, he's got off pretty lightly for the return he's given. 

How would you have managed him?

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Agree with a lot of your concerns BEBA but I think Joz has been given chances. The problem for him apart form the settling in and getting used to being kicked to death with zero protection from the ref, is that he's been the only attacking outlet Rooney will play. As such, teams can easily double-up on the lad without leaving gaping holes elsewhere.

I think it will be good for both him and Lawrence that there's some competition for the slot and it'll keep Roberts honest too given Kamil can play either side and hopefully Wazza will now adopt a more positive approach to games than merely setting a system to avoid losing.

I'd also ignore the 'I told you so' merchants, in any case. They were nowhere to be seen at 2-0 down last night and will mystically vanish should Rooney revert to type in the Stoke game anyway.

I couldn't think of a better right back for Joz to play in front of. Byrne a right back has shown a winger how to cross a ball. The player with the most assists should never be a right back in any team in any league. 

[Big Trav]

45 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

He hasn't warranted as many starts as he's had. 

Rooney has been very critical or certain players but as for Jozwiak, he's got off pretty lightly for the return he's given. 

How would you have managed him?

Give joz an arm round the shoulder is the best way. You can tell just in the few games he’s played he is a massive confidence player. He’s had a hard time settling in by the sounds of it. New country new food new cultures. Double that up with a pandemic and he can’t see his family friend or girlfriend I’d expect him to not settle well. His bestfriend *bielik* is now out for 9 months. The lad needs comforting rather than the hairdryer. 

[May Contain Nuts]

49 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

What do you think Rooney thinks to Jozwiak? Do you think he's managing him well? 

He hasn't warranted as many starts as he's had. Rooney has been very critical or certain players but as for Jozwiak, he's got off pretty lightly for the return he's given. 

How would you have managed him?

I couldn't think of a better right back for Joz to play in front of. Byrne a right back has shown a winger how to cross a ball. The player with the most assists should never be a right back in any team in any league. 

I imagine that what Rooney thinks of Jozwiak is similar to what Rosenior thinks of Jozwiak. Young player adapting to a new country/ league, a different style of play than he's used to, one who we won't see the best of until later down the line.

Rooney will probably also think that Jozwiak has performed the role he's been given in the team pretty well -  work hard, provide good defensive cover, receive the ball with your back to goal, support the overlapping fullback/wingback, chase punts over the top / down the side, attempt to harass / physically compete for the ball with the opposition full-back. 

Simply put he's not been playing the traditional winger role, he's not often been received the ball in space with good passes from midfield - when he has had the ball in those situations he's looked mentally & physically tired from all the defensive work. If you don't receive the ball in good attacking situations very often you're going to end up looking rusty when they do come along, and with such pressure on each one you're going to end up making more poor decisions than good ones.

If your only measure of how useful a player is to the team is goals and assists, ignoring all the other work they do for the team, ignoring the tactics, the balance of the team etc then I guess you'll never appreciate what Jozwiak has done this season, but Rooney will have.

Jozwiak needs to start producing more, but the team needs to offer more support to him, and create more space for him  - you say you can't think of a better RB that Byrne to play with, but in many ways Byrne's success is a result of the support work put in by Jozwiak, not the other, more traditional way around.

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

He hasn't warranted as many starts as he's had. 

Rooney has been very critical or certain players but as for Jozwiak, he's got off pretty lightly for the return he's given. 

How would you have managed him?

Very difficult 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

39 minutes ago, Coconut said:

I imagine that what Rooney thinks of Jozwiak is similar to what Rosenior thinks of Jozwiak. Young player adapting to a new country/ league, a different style of play than he's used to, one who we won't see the best of until later down the line.

Rooney will probably also think that Jozwiak has performed the role he's been given in the team pretty well -  work hard, provide good defensive cover, receive the ball with your back to goal, support the overlapping fullback/wingback, chase punts over the top / down the side, attempt to harass / physically compete for the ball with the opposition full-back. 

Simply put he's not been playing the traditional winger role, he's not often been received the ball in space with good passes from midfield - when he has had the ball in those situations he's looked mentally & physically tired from all the defensive work. If you don't receive the ball in good attacking situations very often you're going to end up looking rusty when they do come along, and with such pressure on each one you're going to end up making more poor decisions than good ones.

If your only measure of how useful a player is to the team is goals and assists, ignoring all the other work they do for the team, ignoring the tactics, the balance of the team etc then I guess you'll never appreciate what Jozwiak has done this season, but Rooney will have.

Jozwiak needs to start producing more, but the team needs to offer more support to him, and create more space for him  - you say you can't think of a better RB that Byrne to play with, but in many ways Byrne's success is a result of the support work put in by Jozwiak, not the other, more traditional way around.

Would he have contributed to the goals we scored last night? The cross to Gregory or the pass to Sibley or would he have scored either. 

We are in a position that doesn't allow us to let a player adapt or settle. Plus, he can have all the work rate in the world but he does very little with it in either half of the pitch. He gives the ball away and ends up on the floor more than anything.