Is Rooney good for player development ?

[May Contain Nuts]

28 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Would he have contributed to the goals we scored last night? The cross to Gregory or the pass to Sibley or would he have scored either. 

We are in a position that doesn't allow us to let a player adapt or settle. Plus, he can have all the work rate in the world but he does very little with it in either half of the pitch. He gives the ball away and ends up on the floor more than anything. 

He wouldn't have contributed to Gregory's goal, no - with the formation we were playing when we scored that he wouldn't be on the pitch, so it's a moot point.

It's impossible to say with 100% certainty, but there's no reason to think he couldn't have played a 3 yard pass to Sibley. Besides let's not pretend that the pass made the goal by creating an unmissable opportunity.

[Rab a dab doo]

I think Rooney at moment is caught between 2 stools.

Firstly wanting to play a type of fast expansive counter attacking football but not either having the players to carry this out.

Nor in a position in the league to risk it with his present squad at the moment. 

[IslandExile]

34 minutes ago, Coconut said:

He wouldn't have contributed to Gregory's goal, no - with the formation we were playing when we scored that he wouldn't be on the pitch, so it's a moot point.

It's impossible to say with 100% certainty, but there's no reason to think he couldn't have played a 3 yard pass to Sibley. Besides let's not pretend that the pass made the goal by creating an unmissable opportunity.

That's key. Let's get Jozwiak, Sibley and Roberts on the pitch together. I think their ability to dribble past opponents and play short but decisive passes will see us play through defences.

Now that'd be exciting ?

[DCFC27]

15 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Over his career, Rooney played a number of positions. He didn’t enjoy all of them by any means - he made that known - but he was world class in each.
He has this confused idea that mere mortals can do the same. They can’t. Wisdom was coming into his best form as a CB and all of a sudden he’s pushed away from the deep centre and he becomes a fish out of water. And a liability.   
In the case of the youngsters it causes serious problems in their development.  Sibley, Watson (on debut!), Menghi (on debut!),  and Knight for most of the season, have been played out of position. It makes no sense. Menghi might just be good enough to manage it; the rest are not. 
Many of our recent academy products would have been better served by a loan to a div 1 team to toughen them up and give them confidence.  To play out of position at this level must be seriously demoralising to them.  And as a team we would have been more successful this season if we had not forced players into positions they find unnatural. 

If you’re a youngster, you don’t know what position you’ll end up playing until you’ve established yourself in the squad. 
If there’s a spot free on the wing and the manager asks you to play there, you play it to the best of your ability.

You might be the best CM in the league at under 23s, doesn’t mean you’ll cut it at men’s football, you might get shifted to the wing/CB/Full back etc until you find a position you can play. 
 

Grealish is a good example, he likes to play CM or number 10. Plays LW most weeks for Villa. 
Rashford was a striker at youth level, tends to play LW. 
McTominay was a striker at youth level, now a CDM. 
Bird came on as a left back to start with. 

Ultimately, Sibley, Knight, Watson don’t get to dictate where they play because they were good at youth level.

They come in and play where there’s an opportunity, then if you play well there you might get an opportunity in CM or you might play so well on the wing you end up staying there. 
 

When average youth players start to dictate where they play, we really will have an issue.  
 

 

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, DCFC27 said:

If you’re a youngster, you don’t know what position you’ll end up playing until you’ve established yourself in the squad. 
If there’s a spot free on the wing and the manager asks you to play there, you play it to the best of your ability.

You might be the best CM in the league at under 23s, doesn’t mean you’ll cut it at men’s football, you might get shifted to the wing/CB/Full back etc until you find a position you can play. 
 

Grealish is a good example, he likes to play CM or number 10. Plays LW most weeks for Villa. 
Rashford was a striker at youth level, tends to play LW. 
McTominay was a striker at youth level, now a CDM. 
Bird came on as a left back to start with. 

Ultimately, Sibley, Knight, Watson don’t get to dictate where they play because they were good at youth level.

They come in and play where there’s an opportunity, then if you play well there you might get an opportunity in CM or you might play so well on the wing you end up staying there. 
 

When average youth players start to dictate where they play, we really will have an issue.  
 

I mean honestly, I don't even know where to start with this one... ?‍♂️

[May Contain Nuts]

2 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

That's key. Let's get Jozwiak, Sibley and Roberts on the pitch together. I think their ability to dribble past opponents and play short but decisive passes will see us play through defences.

Now that'd be exciting ?

We can but dream.

We do need to be more attacking, but realistically we can't afford to go gung-ho with it because there's still the fear that without Bielik & without any real pace in our backline we'll leave ourselves far too open & vulnerable defensively, and that we still don't have enough goals in the team to compensate for for the increased amounts we'd concede.

On the flipside people are a bit too hung up on that fear - I mean look at Brentford, is their central defence & central midfield really that strong? (I'm not saying it isn't superior to ours).  Similar to us in 2013/14 they attack with such quality, move and keep the ball so well that their defence don't often get put under a huge amount of pressure, but when it does happen they don't look great.

[IslandExile]

1 hour ago, Coconut said:

We can but dream.

We do need to be more attacking, but realistically we can't afford to go gung-ho with it because there's still the fear that without Bielik & without any real pace in our backline we'll leave ourselves far too open & vulnerable defensively, and that we still don't have enough goals in the team to compensate for for the increased amounts we'd concede.

On the flipside people are a bit too hung up on that fear - I mean look at Brentford, is their central defence & central midfield really that strong? (I'm not saying it isn't superior to ours).  Similar to us in 2013/14 they attack with such quality, move and keep the ball so well that their defence don't often get put under a huge amount of pressure, but when it does happen they don't look great.

Sod it - let's go gung-ho. You only live once. I do not want to watch defensive football.

In the Stoke Matchday thread, I have suggested we go 3-4-3 because that seems to suit us well. Seeing as Gregory cannot play and CKR may be injured/in need of a rest, I would like us to try Sibley in the Number 10 role with Roberts and Lawrence as false 9s. That triangle would play through the 7foot immobile Stoke defence. Throw Jozwiak on if any of the three are not producing on the day.

Job's a good un. Attack, attack attack. We will still have the 5 defenders and 2 CDMs as cover.

Apologies: I've taken this off topic.

[ram59]

5 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

I couldn't think of a better right back for Joz to play in front of. Byrne a right back has shown a winger how to cross a ball. The player with the most assists should never be a right back in any team in any league. 

I disagree, many players with the leading number of assists have been fullbacks. The overlapping fullback has always been a key player over the years.

Bogle led our assists, a couple of years ago and what about Trippier when he was with Burnley?

[Highgate]

18 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Over his career, Rooney played a number of positions. He didn’t enjoy all of them by any means - he made that known - but he was world class in each.
He has this confused idea that mere mortals can do the same. They can’t. Wisdom was coming into his best form as a CB and all of a sudden he’s pushed away from the deep centre and he becomes a fish out of water. And a liability.   
In the case of the youngsters it causes serious problems in their development.  Sibley, Watson (on debut!), Menghi (on debut!),  and Knight for most of the season, have been played out of position. It makes no sense. Menghi might just be good enough to manage it; the rest are not. 
Many of our recent academy products would have been better served by a loan to a div 1 team to toughen them up and give them confidence.  To play out of position at this level must be seriously demoralising to them.  And as a team we would have been more successful this season if we had not forced players into positions they find unnatural. 

He was a world class number 9 or number 10 in his day, but I don't think Rooney should ever be considered a world class midfielder. Not even close really. 

As a manager Rooney seems to have a habit of changing his teams and formations, like he hasn't figured out what way he wants to play the game yet. Also repeatedly picking players out of position is a worry. It surely can't be helping the players concerned.

Nevertheless, if we avoid the drop, he'll have done enough for this season and will deserve some credit.

[DCFC27]

6 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

I couldn't think of a better right back for Joz to play in front of. Byrne a right back has shown a winger how to cross a ball. The player with the most assists should never be a right back in any team in any league. 

Alexander Arnold? 

[BIllyD]

4 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I mean honestly, I don't even know where to start with this one... ?‍♂️

When doing coaching badges you are encouraged to play players in every position possible, something that has happened in Holland for years.

Would you only play our youngsters in their preferred position?

[Comrade 86]

13 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

When doing coaching badges you are encouraged to play players in every position possible, something that has happened in Holland for years.

Would you only play our youngsters in their preferred position?

Errrr....

Because we need goals.

Because they tend to play better in their best positions.

Because we are teetering on the edge of the relegations slots and can't afford to fook about.

Because said player is being scouted by multiple premiership clubs and I'd rather he stayed and shone for us.

Because Dutch footballing philosophies haven't really worked in the Championship.

Because Dutch footballing philosophies really, really, really haven't worked for Derby County.

Because someone who is 5 foot nothing needn't be played at CB to improve him.

Because it's a fookin nonsense idea.

Apart from that, no particular reason really, buddy ?

[BIllyD]

7 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Errrr....

Because we need goals.

Because they tend to play better in their best positions.

Because we are teetering on the edge of the relegations slots and can't afford to fook about.

Because said player is being scouted by multiple premiership clubs and I'd rather he stayed and shone for us.

Because Dutch footballing philosophies haven't really worked in the Championship.

Because Dutch footballing philosophies really, really, really haven't worked for Derby County.

Because someone who is 5 foot nothing needn't be played at CB to improve him.

Because it's a fookin nonsense idea.

Apart from that, no particular reason really, buddy ?

I was talking generally about all our youngsters, given most of them want to play in a "number 10" role how do you accommodate them all ?

The Dutch philosophy has only been adapted recently in youngsters, nothing really to do with Derby ?‍♂️

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

I was talking generally about all our youngsters, given most of them want to play in a "number 10" role how do you accommodate them all ?

The Dutch philosophy has only been adapted recently in youngsters, nothing really to do with Derby ?‍♂️

I think our youngsters are very ably handled by our English coaches, whose record speaks loud and clear. We've won the PL2 and reach the quarter finals of the CL equivalent in the last couple of years and unless I'm mistaken, that's further than any of the Dutch academies got including Ajax. I tend to watch their games and they seem well drilled, happy and technically proficient to my eye, indeed a deal more so than some of the seniors.

I don't think your comment about them all wanting to be number 10's holds much water either. I thing Knight and Bird are CM a CM ratter and a outright CDM respectively so the only possible 'conflict' I can see is with the two Louie's. ?‍♂️

 

[BIllyD]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I think our youngsters are very ably handled by our English coaches, whose record speaks loud and clear. We've won the PL2 and reach the quarter finals of the CL equivalent in the last couple of years and unless I'm mistaken, that's further than any of the Dutch academies got including Ajax. I tend to watch their games and they seem well drilled, happy and technically proficient to my eye, indeed a deal more so than some of the seniors.

I don't think your comment about them all wanting to be number 10's holds much water either. I thing Knight and Bird are CM a CM ratter and a outright CDM respectively so the only possible 'conflict' I can see is with the two Louie's. ?‍♂️

 

Maybe I wasn't clear, the academy along with many others throughout the country are using this philosophy already. Its something introduced a few years ago to improve our younger players. This is why we are now ahead of other countries, not only at club but also arguably at a national level. I have the pleasure of frequenting the academy to see this action whilst my son is taught by such coaches.

So you change the formation to accommodate these CMs, you are fast running out of positions to play them, already you have 4 going into three and that's not counting the beliks of the team ? 

 

[Comrade 86]

37 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Maybe I wasn't clear, the academy along with many others throughout the country are using this philosophy already. Its something introduced a few years ago to improve our younger players. This is why we are now ahead of other countries, not only at club but also arguably at a national level. I have the pleasure of frequenting the academy to see this action whilst my son is taught by such coaches.

So you change the formation to accommodate these CMs, you are fast running out of positions to play them, already you have 4 going into three and that's not counting the beliks of the team ? 

 

This is all fascinating but I've still zero idea as to why you're telling me, what's it got to do with my comment or how it's relevant to Rooney's handling of the younger players? Never mind. Tomorrow's another day as they say.

[BIllyD]

8 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

This is all fascinating but I've still zero idea as to why you're telling me, what's it got to do with my comment or how it's relevant to Rooney's handling of the younger players? Never mind. Tomorrow's another day as they say.

Because it was in relation to a comment you replied to @DCFC27 posts that was talking about playing youngsters in different positions. Scroll up, it's only a few posts higher ?

Yup, another day closer to returning to football...

 

[DCFC27]

13 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Errrr....

Because we need goals.

Because they tend to play better in their best positions.

Because we are teetering on the edge of the relegations slots and can't afford to fook about.

Because said player is being scouted by multiple premiership clubs and I'd rather he stayed and shone for us.

Because Dutch footballing philosophies haven't really worked in the Championship.

Because Dutch footballing philosophies really, really, really haven't worked for Derby County.

Because someone who is 5 foot nothing needn't be played at CB to improve him.

Because it's a fookin nonsense idea.

Apart from that, no particular reason really, buddy ?

Point being fella, they don’t know their best position yet. It often changes as a youngster, sometimes a spot becomes available in first team football and you play there. Sure you might go back to the position you were playing in under 18s or you might play it really well and stay there. 

 

Max Bird came on at left back before he got a go at CM.
A lot of number 10s get asked to go play on the wings. For example Lawrence for us came as a 10 plays on the wing. 
Jeff Hendrick has played a lot of his career as a right or left midfielder. 

It’s simply what does the team need at the time, if we need a winger then go an play it well, so well you don’t get dropped and then if you still feel you can play better as a CM prove it in training and in games when the manager puts you there. 
 

Its how you bring youth through. 
 

Louie Watson for example has looked really good in his sub appearances, we saw on Tuesday he wasn’t ready to start. If we start him on Saturday and he plays crap he’ll be written off. So you put him on the bench again, bring him on as a sub and rebuild his confidence. Eventually you’ll give him a start and he’ll get a run of games. 
 

Unfortunately some on this forum would rather us play every youngster showing a glimpse of talent in their desired position and watch them crumble under the pressure. If we’re safe with a couple of games to go that’s where you test combinations of youngsters or testing them in other positions. Until we’re safe they play where they are needed. 

 

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, DCFC27 said:

Point being fella, they don’t know their best position yet. It often changes as a youngster, sometimes a spot becomes available in first team football and you play there. Sure you might go back to the position you were playing in under 18s or you might play it really well and stay there. 

 

Max Bird came on at left back before he got a go at CM.
A lot of number 10s get asked to go play on the wings. For example Lawrence for us came as a 10 plays on the wing. 
Jeff Hendrick has played a lot of his career as a right or left midfielder. 

It’s simply what does the team need at the time, if we need a winger then go an play it well, so well you don’t get dropped and then if you still feel you can play better as a CM prove it in training and in games when the manager puts you there. 
 

Its how you bring youth through. 
 

Louie Watson for example has looked really good in his sub appearances, we saw on Tuesday he wasn’t ready to start. If we start him on Saturday and he plays crap he’ll be written off. So you put him on the bench again, bring him on as a sub and rebuild his confidence. Eventually you’ll give him a start and he’ll get a run of games. 
 

Unfortunately some on this forum would rather us play every youngster showing a glimpse of talent in their desired position and watch them crumble under the pressure. If we’re safe with a couple of games to go that’s where you test combinations of youngsters or testing them in other positions. Until we’re safe they play where they are needed. 

 

So we don't know that Sibley is best through the middle or that Watson isn't a winger. We don't know that Knight is a midfield ratter not a winger. I could go on but honestly, I think I must be watching a different side to some on here.

[VulcanRam]

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

So we don't know that Sibley is best through the middle or that Watson isn't a winger. We don't know that Knight is a midfield ratter not a winger. I could go on but honestly, I think I must be watching a different side to some on here.

Watson wasn't being played as a winger. If you listen to Rooney, he was asked to defend on the left but in possession he had a free role, which I'm sure is what you would approve of him having. Knight has never been asked to play as a winger. Similar rules apply, when in possession he joins in inside. 

Sibley's been discussed plenty and in his interview he admitted he'd been too enthusiastic and rash, and now he's learning to be calmer or more mature. It's good learning, and it's good management all round.