Champions League Reforms and The Super League

[Van der MoodHoover]

A bubble has popped off the top of the UEFA think tank....... 

It seems that to avoid more talk of a European Super League we must have fewer, larger groups in the Champions League so they look more like, er, leagues. 

And to avoid out of control transfer markets, what better idea than to prohibit the elite teams from selling players to each other..... 

I await with interest to see if those ideas mature as far as the half-baked stage..... 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56325695

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by ThePrisoner

[Day]

So PSG wouldn’t be able to sell Mbappe to anyone like Bayern or Real?

Sounds bizarre, the players would run their contracts down to move on free transfers, agents will know the clubs will pay the players even more insane wages.

Would also probably see longer contracts given to generational talent like Mbappe, but what happens when he becomes unhappy at PSG, bored of the French league and wants more European success. 

Will he move to a Everton for a year, pay £80m for him, then sell to Real for £190m?

Would certainly mix the game up, just can’t see that idea taking off at all. 

[Ghost of Clough]

24 minutes ago, David said:

So PSG wouldn’t be able to sell Mbappe to anyone like Bayern or Real?

Sounds bizarre, the players would run their contracts down to move on free transfers, agents will know the clubs will pay the players even more insane wages.

Would also probably see longer contracts given to generational talent like Mbappe, but what happens when he becomes unhappy at PSG, bored of the French league and wants more European success. 

Will he move to a Everton for a year, pay £80m for him, then sell to Real for £190m?

Would certainly mix the game up, just can’t see that idea taking off at all. 

Destroys Dortmund's transfer strategy.

Would clubs such as Ajax survive if they can't sell their players to the elite of the elite?

[Day]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Destroys Dortmund's transfer strategy.

Would clubs such as Ajax survive if they can't sell their players to the elite of the elite?

Both would survive, but imagine if they failed to qualify for the Champions League, accusations would be thrown around that players/clubs threw games so they could sell a player to X team.

It’s just a none starter, really is.

Club salary caps, not individual caps, that should be the focus. If UEFA enforced it for the Champions League and covered all loopholes where clubs could use sponsors to pay players extra, domestic leagues would follow suit.

Something is needed stop it spiralling even more out of control.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, David said:

Both would survive, but imagine if they failed to qualify for the Champions League, accusations would be thrown around that players/clubs threw games so they could sell a player to X team.

It’s just a none starter, really is.

Club salary caps, not individual caps, that should be the focus. If UEFA enforced it for the Champions League and covered all loopholes where clubs could use sponsors to pay players extra, domestic leagues would follow suit.

Something is needed stop it spiralling even more out of control.

As you say, it has to be in relation to income. A flat cap could never work in the Champions League when you have clubs such as Man Utd with revenue above £600m in the same competition as Ferencvaros who probably earn less than Wycombe.

 

[Day]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

As you say, it has to be in relation to income. A flat cap could never work in the Champions League when you have clubs such as Man Utd with revenue above £600m in the same competition as Ferencvaros who probably earn less than Wycombe.

Any possibility of completely levelling the playing field across football is gone, think we have to accept that now, some clubs are more wealthy than others. 

If you was to do a percentage of revenue, we would see clubs striking up mega and I mean MEGA sponsorship deals through close connections where money can be moved around. 

Ethihad, Fly Emirates sponsored chandeliers in the boardroom.

Placing a flat rate cap, as I say, wouldn’t level the playing field but it would put a lid on the craziness that’s going on, it would also open the door for clubs to potentially catch up with the big boys with ambitious owners that will take a club like Everton to the cap limit.

[Ghost of Clough]

14 minutes ago, David said:

Any possibility of completely levelling the playing field across football is gone, think we have to accept that now, some clubs are more wealthy than others. 

If you was to do a percentage of revenue, we would see clubs striking up mega and I mean MEGA sponsorship deals through close connections where money can be moved around. 

Ethihad, Fly Emirates sponsored chandeliers in the boardroom.

Placing a flat rate cap, as I say, wouldn’t level the playing field but it would put a lid on the craziness that’s going on, it would also open the door for clubs to potentially catch up with the big boys with ambitious owners that will take a club like Everton to the cap limit.

Oh I thought you meant percentage cap rather than an absolute cap (the same for all clubs)

What sort of figure are you thinking? You already have Man United at £300m, Barcelona, Man United are way ahead of them (I think I read they were close to £500m a couple of years ago. The average PL club was paying out £160m in 19/20. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Ghost of Clough

[Day]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Oh I thought you meant percentage cap rather than an absolute cap (the same for all clubs)

What sort of figure are you thinking? You already have Man United at £300m, Barcelona, Man United are way ahead of them (I think I read they were close to £500m a couple of years ago. The average PL club was paying out £160m in 19/20. 

Not sure, but I would give clubs 5 years before it comes in, that should cover most contracts.

[Van der MoodHoover]

It seems just another idea that is thought to protect the elite in their status quo whilst operating a kind of nuclear stand off, to prevent any one of them dominating the others. 

 

Very narrow focus and not done with any benefits to the wider game or society. 

[TigerTedd]

I don’t fully understand the draft system in America, but isn’t the theory around the weaker teams getting first choice at all the best players, so it mixes it up every year with the weaker teams becoming stronger each year. 

I quite like that idea. And as there is precedent for it already, surely they could come up with a version or variation on the theme that would work across football.

[Day]

1 hour ago, TigerTedd said:

I don’t fully understand the draft system in America, but isn’t the theory around the weaker teams getting first choice at all the best players, so it mixes it up every year with the weaker teams becoming stronger each year. 

I quite like that idea. And as there is precedent for it already, surely they could come up with a version or variation on the theme that would work across football.

Pretty much, you get a draft with the players that are leaving college football. Worst performer over the previous season picks first.

Picks can be traded though, so we could sell Jozefzoon for say a 5th round pick. 

Would need to create a separate U23s league structure or something, no parent clubs.

Would be a HUGE overhaul of the game, just not sure it would work that well, unless it was limited to say Premier League and Championship only 

[Van der MoodHoover]

The NFL has the college football infrastructure beneath it to draft from and there is no real equivalent in European soccer. Unless the champions league clubs are going to start regarding everyone else's player's as draftable...

 

 

 

 

[Anon]

I had a look at the changes they've made to the Champions League this morning. It's amusing how transparent their real goal is. There will be no more mini leagues, just a 36 team single league where each team plays 10 games with their opponents being determined by a seeding system. So, pretty much the way the current groups are determined, but with more games and crucially a set up that allows them to easily add even more fixtures if the format is financially successful.

My favourite part is where the additional 4 slots will draw from. 2 of those slots are set aside for underperforming teams with a good coefficient. Say, for instance, Liverpool were to continue their poor form and finish 7th. They would still get a CL place in this format based solely on their strong CL performances in previous seasons. This obviously further undermines the importance of national leagues when the biggest and best clubs don't even have to perform well domestically to reach their European cash cow tournament.

It's blatantly obvious that these changes are the first steps towards a European super League. That's fine by me, but I just wish they'd all  have a clean break and duck off for good rather than institute this irritating step by step change.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

3 minutes ago, Anon said:

I had a look at the changes they've made to the Champions League this morning. It's amusing how transparent their real goal is. There will be no more mini leagues, just a 36 team single league where each team plays 10 games with their opponents being determined by a seeding system. So, pretty much the way the current groups are determined, but with more games and crucially a set up that allows them to easily add even more fixtures if the format is financially successful.

My favourite part is where the additional 4 slots will draw from. 2 of those slots are set aside for underperforming teams with a good coefficient. Say, for instance, Liverpool were to continue their poor form and finish 7th. They would still get a CL place in this format based solely on their strong CL performances in previous seasons. This obviously further undermines the importance of national leagues when the biggest and best clubs don't even have to perform well domestically to reach their European cash cow tournament.

It's blatantly obvious that these changes are the first steps towards a European super League. That's fine by me, but I just wish they'd all  have a clean break and duck off for good rather than institute this irritating step by step change.

Spot on. I would love it if in 5 years time some of the TV companies stop paying good money for those pointless games because hardly anybody is watching them. Their greed knows no bound.

[RadioactiveWaste]

8 minutes ago, Anon said:

I had a look at the changes they've made to the Champions League this morning. It's amusing how transparent their real goal is. There will be no more mini leagues, just a 36 team single league where each team plays 10 games with their opponents being determined by a seeding system. So, pretty much the way the current groups are determined, but with more games and crucially a set up that allows them to easily add even more fixtures if the format is financially successful.

My favourite part is where the additional 4 slots will draw from. 2 of those slots are set aside for underperforming teams with a good coefficient. Say, for instance, Liverpool were to continue their poor form and finish 7th. They would still get a CL place in this format based solely on their strong CL performances in previous seasons. This obviously further undermines the importance of national leagues when the biggest and best clubs don't even have to perform well domestically to reach their European cash cow tournament.

It's blatantly obvious that these changes are the first steps towards a European super League. That's fine by me, but I just wish they'd all  have a clean break and duck off for good rather than institute this irritating step by step change.

Agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree with the end point. I've no interest or desire to see the superleague.

Best teams being the best because of how well they do at the sportsing is kind of the point of sports. I loath the idea that (for example) liverpool would fail to qualify but get in because they are liverpool combined with the notion that big teams will be seeded to play little teams in one "league" but not a league where everyone plays everyone else i find very flawed.

If the aim is to try to have just big teams, slim the whole thing down. If the aim is to have a lot of CL matches, but not risk unfasionable clubs being involved have half the groups but make everyone play each other home and away twice?

On the drafting/structure debates, It does work in American sports, but the whole set up is different, it'd perhaps work if it could be implimented at a UEFA level but the self interest of the clubs won't allow it. Football has gone for the free market model until those at the top decided the threats to their return on investment were inconvienient, so lobbied to authorities to make it less free and entrench themselves. So we get the inequalites of the free market with the regulatory bars of a controlled market - and it siuts those at the top so the situation will not change.

Personnally i think football needs to go through a "wall street crash" before a "new deal".

 

 

[Anon]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree with the end point. I've no interest or desire to see the superleague.

Best teams being the best because of how well they do at the sportsing is kind of the point of sports. I loath the idea that (for example) liverpool would fail to qualify but get in because they are liverpool combined with the notion that big teams will be seeded to play little teams in one "league" but not a league where everyone plays everyone else i find very flawed.

If the aim is to try to have just big teams, slim the whole thing down. If the aim is to have a lot of CL matches, but not risk unfasionable clubs being involved have half the groups but make everyone play each other home and away twice?

On the drafting/structure debates, It does work in American sports, but the whole set up is different, it'd perhaps work if it could be implimented at a UEFA level but the self interest of the clubs won't allow it. Football has gone for the free market model until those at the top decided the threats to their return on investment were inconvienient, so lobbied to authorities to make it less free and entrench themselves. So we get the inequalites of the free market with the regulatory bars of a controlled market - and it siuts those at the top so the situation will not change.

Personnally i think football needs to go through a "wall street crash" before a "new deal".

 

 

I don't want to see the superleague either, but it seems inevitable at this point.

You make a very good point about football's corruption of the free market model and the rampant protectionism that is pushed by the established big clubs. It's just so transparent when we see them playing pre season tournaments in the middle/far east chasing money, but then lobbying for rule changes that prevent that very same money from being invested in potential competitors.

My suggestion that they all duck off and join a superleage is one born of frustration and disillusionment. The big clubs are so powerful that they would be able to insist on fielding 'b' teams in domestic leagues even if a superleague came to pass. I agree that football needs a 'crash', but I fail to see how such a thing will occur, not to such an extent that it will effect the top teams anyway.

[TigerTedd]

2 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Agree with a lot of your post, but I disagree with the end point. I've no interest or desire to see the superleague.

Best teams being the best because of how well they do at the sportsing is kind of the point of sports. I loath the idea that (for example) liverpool would fail to qualify but get in because they are liverpool combined with the notion that big teams will be seeded to play little teams in one "league" but not a league where everyone plays everyone else i find very flawed.

If the aim is to try to have just big teams, slim the whole thing down. If the aim is to have a lot of CL matches, but not risk unfasionable clubs being involved have half the groups but make everyone play each other home and away twice?

On the drafting/structure debates, It does work in American sports, but the whole set up is different, it'd perhaps work if it could be implimented at a UEFA level but the self interest of the clubs won't allow it. Football has gone for the free market model until those at the top decided the threats to their return on investment were inconvienient, so lobbied to authorities to make it less free and entrench themselves. So we get the inequalites of the free market with the regulatory bars of a controlled market - and it siuts those at the top so the situation will not change.

Personnally i think football needs to go through a "wall street crash" before a "new deal".

 

 

money tuning the game is not something I ever bought into until recently. Now it’s becoming starkly obvious that absolutely everything is about the money, the big bucks that can be earns at the very top, and protecting that. No one is going to make a decision that financially disadvantages them. 

In America they have the AFL and the NFL don’t they. And rugby split into league and union. I wonder if there would ever be a time that some true football fan owners, who aren’t in it for the money, would split away into a more pure, old school football league. Maybe some slightly different, less stupid rules.

You could just give up on the big leagues, and watch the national league, but then you miss out on quality, and even those little clubs have a dream to one day get a couple of promotions and play in the EFL. 

so yeah, almost would be better for the super rich clubs to piss off and let domestic football get back to grass roots a bit. 

[Curtains]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjisdKYiIjwAhWip3EKHY4vBesQ0PADegQIFBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Farticle%2Feuropean-super-league-five-english-clubs-sign-up-to-breakaway-league-in-challenge-to-uefa-plans-xks8jdxtm&usg=AOvVaw0b05593Cu7q1GFOMuMmZhJ

[Curtains]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/14686517/man-utd-arsenal-chelsea-european-super-league-uefa/

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Disgraceful.