Live football thread.

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, DCFC Kicks said:

Can you honestly say your opinion of Capello would be the same if we happen to have met Italy in the final instead of the RO16 at Euro 2012, or we happen to have met Germany in the semi-finals instead of the RO16 at the 2010 WC (or goal-line technology existed)?

it was Woy at Euro 2012 not Capello.

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, DCFC Kicks said:

You say we were good at the Euros, but if you look game by game, in the World Cup as well, you'd expect us to win every one we did, with Germany being to one possible exception.  

 

given our track record at major tournaments, i wasn't really expecting us to win many matches at all. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

For those of us who grew up in the 1970s when England didn't qualify for a single tournament, I'd say we'd been relatively spoilt in recent times. 

I don't think Southgate is materially any better than much of what has come before. The squad he has is improving all the time, but that's not really his doing as England manager. 

One thing Southgate does do is try out different formations. Doesn't always work very well and he seems unable to shift things round during a game but he does try 433, 4231, 4123 etc.... 

I noted he's got cross about Maguire being jeered. But I thought he set out early in his tenure to say that he would pick on form and now he's shifted his approach to pick on form, or on history for him?

[TigerTedd]

2 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

 

I noted he's got cross about Maguire being jeered. But I thought he set out early in his tenure to say that he would pick on form and now he's shifted his approach to pick on form, or on history for him?

That makes sense, as an international manager, though. If you’ve had great success with one player, and they’re familiar with the tactics and you’ve had comparatively loads of training time with them, you stick with them, rather than picking some kid who’s playing well now, but has a little to do to get up to speed with the rest if the team. 

Form is temporary, just ask Nick Blackman. 

[TigerTedd]

8 hours ago, DCFC Kicks said:

Southgate is great at the diplomatic/corporate side. I know international football isn't as tactically detailed as club football but I still think he's quite poor and dated tactically. In both the Croatia and Italy games we took an early lead, the opposition manager changed things, and Southgate had no response. The players he picks are often one dimensional and he doesn't seem to know how to use more intricate players such as Grealish. 

You say we were good at the Euros, but if you look game by game, in the World Cup as well, you'd expect us to win every one we did, with Germany being to one possible exception.  

Can you honestly say your opinion of Capello would be the same if we happen to have met Italy in the final instead of the RO16 at Euro 2012, or we happen to have met Germany in the semi-finals instead of the RO16 at the 2010 WC (or goal-line technology existed)?

If capello had got us to a final and semi final, o would honestly think he needs to be knighted. I wouldn’t really be picking apart how he got us there, and whether or not we were lucky. 

We beat all the team we were expected to beat. That’s worth celebrating. It used to be that we wouldn’t beat the teams we were expected to beat. Costa Rica, Iceland etc. 

That’s exactly how it’s supposed to work. If we want to call ourselves the best in the world, then we ‘expect’ to beat every team we play. but we never did, to the point our expectations got so battered that anything more than a last 16 finish was a bonus. 

now I’m expecting a semi final at least. There is hope and optimism in the country again (with regard to the England team at least). It’s great. 

[Rammy03]

4 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I noted he's got cross about Maguire being jeered. But I thought he set out early in his tenure to say that he would pick on form and now he's shifted his approach to pick on form, or on history for him?

He hasn't shifted his approach at all. People who thought he would pick every player on their club form alone took his words too literally.

Obviously he's got to keep the core of the team the same so that he can build that understanding. Remember international managers only get very limited time to see their players so it's vital that the team stays roughly the same. If he only picked players on form then there would be about 10-15 changes to the squad every time. There would never be any consistency and cohesion between the players.

And actually Southgate does pick players on form. 3 crystal palace players have been called up which never would have happened in years gone by. I think Southgate has got it spot on with England and it feels like some people just can't wait to criticise him for something.

I don't have any problem with the selection of Maguire, he's had a rough patch for his club but is a key part of why England have been so good over the last few years, that cannot be denied. So for some fans to boo him yesterday is disgraceful.

[Rammy03]

9 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Facts will state that under Southgate we have gotten further than all of his predecessors. But facts will also state that under Southgate we have yet to beat a genuine contender in competition football.

I think this England side needs to beat a Spain, Belgium, France or Brazil to really believe they can win a major trophy.

I seem to remember we beat Germany at the Euros

[TigerTedd]

14 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I seem to remember we beat Germany at the Euros

People always talk about how we haven’t beaten any good teams. And then have to be reminded of the likes of Germany, and trouncing Spain in their own back yard. We’ve beaten almost everyone we’ve come across. And the games we’ve lost, we haven’t been played off the park. But for a penalty shoot out we’d be the reigning European champions right now, and people still aren’t happy. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

33 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I seem to remember we beat Germany at the Euros

Ah but you see that will be because Germany aren't the team they once were and not because of anything good that England did.

[Chris_Martin]

7 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

For those of us who grew up in the 1970s when England didn't qualify for a single tournament, I'd say we'd been relatively spoilt in recent times. 

I don't think Southgate is materially any better than much of what has come before. The squad he has is improving all the time, but that's not really his doing as England manager. 

 

he actually coached and helped develop a lot of the players we have now at u21 level.

[Chris_Martin]

13 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

 

I think this England side needs to beat a Spain, Belgium, France or Brazil to really believe they can win a major trophy.

 

we have done.

beat germany at the euros, also beat spain and belgium in the nations league

 

[Bris Vegas]

24 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

we have done.

beat germany at the euros, also beat spain and belgium in the nations league

 

The nations league are just glorified friendlies. I wouldn’t count them any more than confederation cup matches.

We beat a Germany side who were really struggling. They were woeful in the World Cup and lost at home to Macedonia in qualifying going into the tournament. Given England were at home, I think most expected an England win.

England are like Deontay Wilder. Extremely consistent with knocking over the lesser guys, renowned as one of the best in the world, but has a padded out record of not actually beating anyone of real note. 

 

[sage]

6 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

The nations league are just glorified friendlies. I wouldn’t count them any more than confederation cup matches.

We beat a Germany side who were really struggling. They were woeful in the World Cup and lost at home to Macedonia in qualifying going into the tournament. Given England were at home, I think most expected an England win.

England are like Deontay Wilder. Extremely consistent with knocking over the lesser guys, renowned as one of the best in the world, but has a padded out record of not actually beating anyone of real note. 

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

33 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

The nations league are just glorified friendlies. I wouldn’t count them any more than confederation cup matches.

We beat a Germany side who were really struggling. They were woeful in the World Cup and lost at home to Macedonia in qualifying going into the tournament. Given England were at home, I think most expected an England win.

England are like Deontay Wilder. Extremely consistent with knocking over the lesser guys, renowned as one of the best in the world, but has a padded out record of not actually beating anyone of real note. 

 

What toss. I bet your beloved Spain approached that match against England really casually.

[Will the Ram]

On 29/03/2022 at 08:25, DCFC Kicks said:

I didn't, you seemed to make a general point about how people can't control luck. What's that got to with whether Southgate's luck is making him appear to be a better manager than he is?

England happen to find Italy in the quarter finals at Euro 2012 and lose on penalties and it's deemed to be a bad tournament and Capello should be sacked.

England happen to find Italy in the final at Euro 2020 and lose on penalties but it's deemed a good tournament and Southgate is great.

Both managers in both tournaments won all the games they were expected to (Capello also drew to France), and lost to Italy on pens. 

the only good victory Southgate has had in two tournaments is over Germany, and they weren't even that good at the time.

Hodgson was manager at Euro 2012. He replaced Capello just before the tournament. Personally I think Hodgson was a terrible England manager.

Southgate has done a good job but is too defensive at times (eg the Euro 2020 Final).

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 hours ago, Will the Ram said:

Hodgson was manager at Euro 2012. He replaced Capello just before the tournament. Personally I think Hodgson was a terrible England manager.

Southgate has done a good job but is too defensive at times (eg the Euro 2020 Final).

The Hodgson appointment exemplified the contradictions inherent in the England manager role. 

He was lauded in euro 2016 for his ambassadorial qualities. He even spoke the language of his French hosts. 

But his coaching successes were mainly 20 years before and usually in the role of "plucky underdog", which doesn't tend to sit well with the England public. 

He also didn't have the infrastructure that exists now with age groups, pathways etc etc. 

And finally, he was very unlucky in tournament draws. 2014 group of death being the obvious example - first time ever that 3 previous winners were drawn in the same qualifying group. 

Southgate has a better balance of those qualities/attributes. The frustration being that even with a far better hand, we still haven't actually won anything. 

[Bris Vegas]

On 30/03/2022 at 05:45, AndyinLiverpool said:

What toss. I bet your beloved Spain approached that match against England really casually.

They are glorified friendlies. The fact that there is already talk of scrapping it shows that. Besides, look at the teams that the nations actually put out. It was invented to try and make friendlies more competitive, that was all.

[AndyinLiverpool]

59 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

They are glorified friendlies. The fact that there is already talk of scrapping it shows that. Besides, look at the teams that the nations actually put out. It was invented to try and make friendlies more competitive, that was all.

Just because you repeat it doesn't stop it from being toss

[Bris Vegas]

6 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Just because you repeat it doesn't stop it from being toss

The nations league is what the charity shield is to domestic football.

Just out of curiosity, where would you rank England now in terms of world football? 

I think we are in the top six or seven. But to be a genuine contender we must beat a fellow top six side when it matters on the biggest stage and we have yet to do that.

[TigerTedd]

45 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

The nations league is what the charity shield is to domestic football.

Just out of curiosity, where would you rank England now in terms of world football? 

I think we are in the top six or seven. But to be a genuine contender we must beat a fellow top six side when it matters on the biggest stage and we have yet to do that.

I think that’s definitely coming. I don’t claim to be an expert in world football, so correct me if any of this is wrong but…

whether Gareth Southgate is a good coach is not really an issue. As an international coach, it not really his job to train the players and make them the best, just to point them all in the right direction. 

the premier league is undoubtably the best league in the world, and it attracts the best managers in the world. Our players aren’t being coached by Gareth Southgate, they’re being coached by pep, Klopp and Tuchel.

most international teams are made up of one or two superstars, if they’re lucky, and then a bunch of players playing in lower leagues or lesser European leagues. The likes of Poland, and wales. The elite teams have a far bigger selection of world class talent. The very best have a squad of heavy hitters, all killer, no filler. That’s where England are now. A whole squad of players that regularly play with and against the best players in the world, learning their trade from the best managers in the world.

Over the past couple of tournaments, I think our players have suffered a bit from the perennial, ‘oh we’re England, we’ll probably duck it up’ stereotype.

i think they’re starting to believe the hype.

we’ve got city players who are used to just relentlessly scoring, like the ducking terminator. They don’t know any other way to play at this stage. There’s a reason we beat Andorra 10-0. It’s not just cos Andorra are crap, they’ve always been crap, but we’ve never beaten them 10-0 before. It’s because we’re pretty much unstoppable, and will steam roller a team like Andorra. Like city steam rolling Watford in the fa cup.  

player for player, we must have the best squad in the world at this stage. They don’t need a world class coach to tell them what to do, they already know what to do. And they absolutely shouldn’t, and I don’t they do, fear anyone, because they are better than anyone they come up against. They’ve proven it on a domestic level, they just need to show it on the international stage now.