Coronavirus

[GboroRam]

3 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Not these hospital myths again. There is no one to work in these Nightingale hospitals and there are barely enough staff well enough to run existing hospitals!

Your "kick the can down the road" only slightly works in the context that we now know we screwed up during the Summer.

I don't think you were saying in the Spring "this lockdown will only delay deaths until the Winter, because our attempts to manage the virus between July and September will be hopeless. Let's take those extra 50k deaths now."

 

Another analogy for everyone. Let's say this virus is like a car accelerating. With no measures in place, it's like the throttle is stuck full open. And this car has a top speed of 300 miles per hour. (R>=2, 3 or more)

Lockdowns attempt to do a Keanu Reeves in Speed. We keep it at 50, but when the acceleration takes us faster, additional measures are needed to slow it down. (R=1, going slightly over and back under again)

Full lockdown put the brakes on and we slowed well down, certainly slower than we are going now (R<1) But eat out to help out, sending people back to the office, opening the pubs just whacked the throttle open again. 

Lockdowns buy you time, that's all. But if you don't use it sensibly you might as well not bother. 

Without Lockdowns I'd hate to think what speed we'd be going now. Slowing things down is necessary to manage the situation. In no way is it pointless. 

[ariotofmyown]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Or Matt Hancocks policies that have led us to 100,000 deaths...

I asked you to back up your statement about the weight of all scientific opinion agreeing with the lockdowns.

It's possible for Matt Hancock to agree with the science, but for him and the rest of government to do a terrible job based on their recommendations. That doesn't make the scientists wrong.

You genuinely don't accept that the majority of scientific opinion would advise lockdowns for the situation the UK found itself both in the Spring and late Autumn? Where are you getting this from?

Do you think there is a huge body of scientific opinion who have remained silent, but actually think, say, Brazil had it right?

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

It's possible for Matt Hancock to agree with the science, but for him and the rest of government to do a terrible job based on their recommendations. That doesn't make the scientists wrong.

You genuinely don't accept that the majority of scientific opinion would advise lockdowns for the situation the UK found itself both in the Spring and late Autumn? Where are you getting this from?

Do you think there is a huge body of scientific opinion who have remained silent, but actually think, say, Brazil had it right?

Ah right, so the scientists have got it all right and all of the bad decisions are down to the Government, ok I've got it now.

But this is still the Government that you think we should be listening to?

Its not up to me to prove about the 'majority of scientific opinion' because it is not me making the claim. You made the claim so I am assuming that you have seen something to back this up?

Personally, yes, I think there is a big body of scientific opinion that think that full on lockdowns are wrong, the thing is that any that voice their opinion are very quickly labelled suck things as 'fringe scientists' or 'clickbait columnists' rather than taken seriously and their views debated.

If lockdowns are the only way forward then you'd imagine that Sweden have way more cases per capita than us, so imagine my surprise at seeing that our figures are almost exactly the same!

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

It's possible for Matt Hancock to agree with the science, but for him and the rest of government to do a terrible job based on their recommendations. That doesn't make the scientists wrong.

You genuinely don't accept that the majority of scientific opinion would advise lockdowns for the situation the UK found itself both in the Spring and late Autumn? Where are you getting this from?

Do you think there is a huge body of scientific opinion who have remained silent, but actually think, say, Brazil had it right?

That’s great ,, silence any opposing opinions with censorship, abuse , ridicule ,accusations of not caring about deaths ( granny killing),,, then say your right because you think people wouldn’t have remained silent if they thought you were wrong ??‍♂️

[G STAR RAM]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

That’s great ,, silence any opposing opinions with censorship, abuse , ridicule ,accusations of not caring about deaths ( granny killing),,, then say your right because you think people wouldn’t have remained silent if they thought you were wrong ??‍♂️

'My opinion is backed up by nearly all scientists'

Yeah but with these scientists advising we have hundreds of thousands of deaths?

'Yeah but thats nothing to do with the scientists'

 

[BIllyD]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

If lockdowns are the only way forward then you'd imagine that Sweden have way more cases per capita than us, so imagine my surprise at seeing that our figures are almost exactly the same!

Just to be clear what you are saying here, that Sweden is a good example of lockdowns not working ?

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Just to be clear what you are saying here, that Sweden is a good example of lockdowns not working ?

Im saying we have had full lockdowns and Sweden have not.

Our deaths per capita are almost identical. 

Take from that data whatever you want.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Personally, yes, I think there is a big body of scientific opinion that think that full on lockdowns are wrong, the thing is that any that voice their opinion are very quickly labelled suck things as 'fringe scientists' or 'clickbait columnists' rather than taken seriously and their views debated.

Scientists do science and they produce evidence based opinions, which are peer reviewed.

The fringe opinions promoted from the Great Barrington Declaration received far more coverage than they deserved, because of the right wing think tanks that promote them.

You are going to struggle to find any big body of scientific opinion against the lockdowns we saw back in the Spring and that we see now. If you are right, then why are these scientists so scared to tell the real story? If there is so many of them, why don't they come together and reveal themselves?

[ariotofmyown]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Im saying we have had full lockdowns and Sweden have not.

Our deaths per capita are almost identical. 

Take from that data whatever you want.

Countries that don't implement lockdowns, or only implement them too late, have similar terrible levels of deaths?

[ariotofmyown]

42 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

'My opinion is backed up by nearly all scientists'

Yeah but with these scientists advising we have hundreds of thousands of deaths?

'Yeah but thats nothing to do with the scientists'

 

They advised a lockdown in September, but your man Johnson doesn't understand leading indicators. Their forecasts were routinely derided as been over dramatic and false, and the government listened to right wing funded fringe scientists.

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said:

Scientists do science and they produce evidence based opinions, which are peer reviewed.

The fringe opinions promoted from the Great Barrington Declaration received far more coverage than they deserved, because of the right wing think tanks that promote them.

You are going to struggle to find any big body of scientific opinion against the lockdowns we saw back in the Spring and that we see now. If you are right, then why are these scientists so scared to tell the real story? If there is so many of them, why don't they come together and reveal themselves?

No point really discussing.

Everything that you disagree with is right wing???? or fringe scientists.

You obviously think that the right advice has been given at all stages of the pandemic.

 Not sure that this tallies with the worldwide death tallies.

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Scientists do science and they produce evidence based opinions, which are peer reviewed.

The fringe opinions promoted from the Great Barrington Declaration received far more coverage than they deserved, because of the right wing think tanks that promote them.

You are going to struggle to find any big body of scientific opinion against the lockdowns we saw back in the Spring and that we see now. If you are right, then why are these scientists so scared to tell the real story? If there is so many of them, why don't they come together and reveal themselves?

Or countries that have not locked down have the same death rates as countries that have locked down?

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

They advised a lockdown in September, but your man Johnson doesn't understand leading indicators. Their forecasts were routinely derided as been over dramatic and false, and the government listened to right wing funded fringe scientists.

Wow....

I'm out of this discussion for now.

Enjoy your evening ?

[Eddie]

8 hours ago, Albert said:

They have maintained this all along. The drop in cases that occurred after each lockdown has just been due to fairies and magic apparently. 

The improvement came between May and August - no 'R' in the month, which also applies to folklore which stated that it wasn't advisable to eat oysters during those months.

The inevitable conclusion I must arrive at from the above undeniable facts, therefore, is that eating oysters causes Covid-19.

[BIllyD]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Im saying we have had full lockdowns and Sweden have not.

Our deaths per capita are almost identical. 

Take from that data whatever you want.

Fair enough, I take it as proof lockdowns do work, hence why Sweden is higher than the majority that have had lockdowns.

[G STAR RAM]

12 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

Fair enough, I take it as proof lockdowns do work, hence why Sweden is higher than the majority that have had lockdowns.

Didnt Spain and Belgium have much stricter lockdowns than us?

Both have higher rate per capita than Sweden.

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Ah right, so the scientists have got it all right and all of the bad decisions are down to the Government, ok I've got it now.

As far as the scientific community were concerned, they advocated lockdowns in both cases fully four weeks before the government reluctantly brought them in. Regarding closure of the borders, instigating a compulsory quarantine and compulsory testing on those coming back into the country, the recommendations were made ten months before action was taken. As far as 'Eat out to help out' was concerned, if ever there was an example of collective insanity amongst those in power, this was it. Utterly barmy, irresponsible and brainless.

All government decisions, all terrible ones, all indefensible, in my opinion.

[Gone]

21 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The improvement came between May and August - no 'R' in the month, which also applies to folklore which stated that it wasn't advisable to eat oysters during those months.

The inevitable conclusion I must arrive at from the above undeniable facts, therefore, is that eating oysters causes Covid-19.

Any other variables happen between May and August you can think of ? Maybe try and compare to November to February see if you can think of anything .........I’m  scratching my head to be honest ?

[Albert]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Or countries that have not locked down have the same death rates as countries that have locked down?

This takes a very simplistic view of what a 'lockdown' is. Sweden didn't 'lockdown', but they had a lot of restrictions in place as well, and these did have an impact on infection rates. The issue the UK has had is also that while they did 'lockdown', they opened up, and then allowed infections to get completely out of control, as discussed prior. 

[BIllyD]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Didnt Spain and Belgium have much stricter lockdowns than us?

Both have higher rate per capita than Sweden.

You mean countries that relaxed their lockdowns and then the number of cases increased so they had to introduce them again. Sweden have also brought in laws to introduce lockdown measure I believe ? 
 

What about countries that have also gone full lockdown on us, dare I say it, for example Australia ?