Coronavirus

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

It's just completely bizarre.

He even says the graph is not a prediction (which it quite clearly is).

There was no mention of them not expecting it to happen due to the new measures in place.

Why not show a graph which shows cases going down to zero based on what could happen if everyone follows the guidance and we eradicate the virus?

It was really poor form and was nothing other than scare tactics.

Its time for them to step aside if they only have scaring the public as their best idea for getting cases down. 

some very good points in there. One day I am expecting a video, call recordings or mail leaked which says, we have no idea, we are just winging it

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

5 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Fingers crossed that it isnt too bad and he can get back to losing the election as quickly as possible.

He can still tweet or talk poo but now he won't be able to smell it or taste it. 

[Uptherams]

28 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Imagine a someone at work tested positive for Covid, and someone who worked very closely with them knew the test result, but still came into work regardless. Their job also meant they were around member's of the public too.

That's what Trump did.

Cummings admitted doing a similar thing too (returning to work when his wife had clear symptoms) but the journos in the garden failed to pick up on this when questioning him.

Tremendous people. Definitely the sort of people you want in charge.do

The silencing when it's Labour party officials and SNP, etc, is deafening. 

[Uptherams]

23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

It's just completely bizarre.

He even says the graph is not a prediction (which it quite clearly is).

There was no mention of them not expecting it to happen due to the new measures in place.

Why not show a graph which shows cases going down to zero based on what could happen if everyone follows the guidance and we eradicate the virus?

It was really poor form and was nothing other than scare tactics.

Its time for them to step aside if they only have scaring the public as their best idea for getting cases down. 

He might well have just come out and asked is your name Ireland, because my Penis is Dublin. 

[Pearl Ram]

26 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Imagine a someone at work tested positive for Covid, and someone who worked very closely with them knew the test result, but still came into work regardless. Their job also meant they were around member's of the public too.

That's what Trump did.

On the other side of the coin, is it not beyond the realms of possibility Trump hasn’t tested positive at all and all this is a delaying tactic, a) to postpone his next spat with Biden having come out worst in the initial debate or b) delaying the actual election giving him time to manoeuvre his choice for the Supreme Court into place.

Not saying that’s the case obviously, but I just don’t believe anything that comes from him or his advisers, I just think the bloke’s as slippery as fook.

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

The silencing when it's Labour party officials and SNP, etc, is deafening. 

I said he's an idiot. 

[ariotofmyown]

43 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I said he's an idiot. 

Then you would be banned. It's "misguided". Please don't insult people who have never done the things that @Uptherams has accused them of.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Pearl Ram said:

On the other side of the coin, is it not beyond the realms of possibility Trump hasn’t tested positive at all and all this is a delaying tactic, a) to postpone his next spat with Biden having come out worst in the initial debate or b) delaying the actual election giving him time to manoeuvre his choice for the Supreme Court into place.

Not saying that’s the case obviously, but I just don’t believe anything that comes from him or his advisers, I just think the bloke’s as slippery as fook.

Or maybe he'll be "too ill" to contest this election and let Pence lose it. Then he can stand again in 4 years when America is still not great again.

[GboroRam]

3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Then you would be banned. It's "misguided". Please don't insult people who have never done the things that @Uptherams has accused them of.

That's one of the strange things on this forum that I think people don't get. 

We don't mind you insulting politicians.

We draw the line at insulting each other.

[ariotofmyown]

1 minute ago, GboroRam said:

That's one of the strange things on this forum that I think people don't get. 

We don't mind you insulting politicians.

We draw the line at insulting each other.

You insult politicians* I support...I'll insult you. It's freedom of speech init. 

*reality tv performers

[Andicis]

Hope he pulls through. Seems serious.

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Hope he pulls through. Seems serious.

His age alone would make him more vulnerable than Boris Johnson,  for whom it looked bad for a while.

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

His age alone would make him more vulnerable than Boris Johnson,  for whom it looked bad for a while.

Maybe it's no more than precaution. 

[Gritstone Ram]

6 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Maybe it's no more than precaution. 

He’s overdosed on bleach.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

8 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

He’s overdosed on bleach.

I wonder if Chloroquine could be a cure for that as well ?

lets face it there is quite a lot of stock to get through so might as well try. Just an idea, as Don would say.

[Albert]

 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

Its not as black and white as you make it out to be though, I have linked several articles that suggest further debate is warranted.

There are elements that are not black and white, but given we have examples of what has happened when countries haven't locked down, and know the capacity of the health services is not infinite, this is one area we have some level of clarity. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

And thats the key point, although imho I think that you have misunderstood my point of view slightly in that it is not just about economy vs lives.  Economics are secondary to lives but the economy does have a role to play in any lockdown.  In the short term lives maybe saved but in the long term more lives maybe lost due to our ability to function properly during the lockdown and the damage we have done to our economy.

Which is the key disagreement I have with you. You seem to think I'm a proponent for long term lockdowns, when I'm not. Short, hard lockdowns, with the time used to expand testing and tracing capabilities would allow the UK to go down the Australia and New Zealand path, which would get them out of the restrictions faster, and remove virtually all the concerns of the restrictions, something that cannot be done under the UK's current treading water approach. 

To reiterate, yes, lives will be lost, both due to medical and economic impacts of these restrictions, but from what we've seen in other countries, those impacts will happen in accordance with the rate of spread of the disease, not just because of restrictions. Hence, the view should be to having a short, but better aimed lockdown to go down that other path. If people are what matters, it is the model to follow. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

Although you seem resolute in your opinions and quite dismissive of mine?  To repeat myself again (I keep saying I won't but I'm beginning to feel as though I'm close to a break through!) there is a discussion to be had about the long term effects of lockdowns, the consequences of which we won't fully grasp until all of this is over.  I don't claim to be right but I have seen a lot of people, economists and doctors beginning to argue that continued lockdowns will result in more death and misery than we'd save in the short term. 

Maybe Sweden has it right afterall?  Praised for their approach at the beginning, then criticised as the deaths started to mount up as they didn't lockdown.  There's your case study right there, in a few years after covid is (hopefully) a distant memory we'll see whether the Swedish approach resulted in more or less total deaths overall than countries that locked down.

Given that Sweden has already had more excess deaths per capita than any of its neighbours, and has taken a bigger economic hit, it would be quite strange to see that trend reverse. 

That said, I don't doubt that if the UK continue down this bits and pieces path, that they likely will end up in a worse position on all fronts. From the outside, there appears to be absolutely not plan, and they're getting the worst of both Worlds. Sweden still has controls, but have some kind of plan in it all. The UK just seem to be flailing about randomly, bringing in flavour of the month restrictions, with limited clarity of direction. 

This is, in part, why I keep bringing up this point about countries that have successfully controlled the virus. They're not getting excess deaths from lockdowns, because they're not in them. At no point have I argued for 'rolling, continuous lockdowns'. Done correctly, the UK could be out of lockdowns before Christmas, and begin to open up properly, it would be hard, and so much of the work has been spunked by previous actions, but at the very least it's better than lurching from restrictions to restrictions through to mid next year. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

Absolutely - and its another reason why uncertainty surrounds continued lockdowns.  You are rolling up problems praying that a vaccine becomes available sooner rather than later.  If its a year, two years, five years away lockdowns will have financially crippled us all anyway.

I agree, the UK can't continue with this nonsense. They have to develop a plan as though this will continue for years, not months. Honestly, as noted, the Swedish model may well be better than the current method. Even if far worse than the Australian or Kiwi method. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

As was highlighted in The Guardian article I linked earlier.  Unfortunately we all know the answer to this, countries will look after their own first and the strongest will survive as the weakest suffer the worst consequences ?

 

Amen.

No doubt. My point was exactly that, I don't doubt for a second that countries that are successful in this long term are the ones that'll be taking advantage of that situation. It's what worries me so much about what the UK is doing. Brexit was already going to make the financial outlook challenging in the short term, continued lockdowns with no plan, the health burden of both the lockdowns and those that survive the virus, as well as what looks like no plan for the future more generally, could be a perfect storm that puts the UK back decades economically, while other countries come out of this in better position to recovery. 

It's one thing to survive this second wave with little damage, it's another to come out of it with something approaching a clear plan for the future. 

9 hours ago, Andicis said:

It's beyond a comedy that you keep pretending getting ''zero covid'' is a possibility in the UK, it isn't. New Zealand and Australia are nothing like the UK. Nor are any of the other countries you're comparing with. They did strict lockdowns in mainland Europe, and never got close to that. Keeping up the facade it's an option is foolish. 

So, what you're arguing is that the UK is less competent than Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc. It's amazing to me that so many think this way, rather than looking at the differences in approach used. 

After all this Brexit stuff as well, I'd have assumed that the UK wouldn't set its bar as what is achieved on the continent being the best possible result. 

Again, I believe the UK is capable of better, why don't you? 

7 hours ago, maxjam said:

 

Gupta is a proponent of the Swedish model, which, as noted previously, has failed to achieve herd immunity, or protect the economy. Her research group suggested that throughout the World, as much as 68% had already been infected earlier in the pandemic, and hence the second wave would be averted by that. Given the second wave is underway, here models are being tested in real time. Given the rate of spread, it would suggest her base assumptions were already wrong, but we won't know the full picture until this wave is fully resolved around Europe. It's possible that this second wave is just being better tracked, and controlled, hence smaller than it appears; let's hope this ends up being the case. 

This is just her pushing those same ideas. Again, if the UK continues on this half and half nonsense, she may well have a point, but it still isn't the best option available. 

I would also point out that her work is under the assumption that the short, and effective, lockdowns, with tracing, etc done in countries that have controlled the disease would not be effective. It is. 

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

That's one of the strange things on this forum that I think people don't get. 

We don't mind you insulting politicians.

We draw the line at insulting each other.

Some of the so-called insults I handed out were understated to the point that they were almost compliments.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Hope he pulls through. Seems serious.

Me too.

I want him to lose the election badly, then spend the rest of his life alternating between court and jail.

[ramit]

1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

His age alone would make him more vulnerable than Boris Johnson,  for whom it looked bad for a while.

He's finally learning something from the Brits, who should feel proud

He's doing a Boris, but with a twist, will be miraculously cured with hydroxychloroquine and then win the elections, yay

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, Albert said:

So, what you're arguing is that the UK is less competent than Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc. It's amazing to me that so many think this way, rather than looking at the differences in approach used. 

After all this Brexit stuff as well, I'd have assumed that the UK wouldn't set its bar as what is achieved on the continent being the best possible result. 

Again, I believe the UK is capable of better, why don't you? 

Don't get it twisted, it's nothing about competency. The UK is a global hub. Australia and New Zealand are tucked out of the way. We're always going to be hinged off what the rest of Europe do. We can't get zero covid. It'd just get imported back, and the cycle starts up again.