The Politics Thread 2020

[FindernRam]

1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Theres some stuff on subscription TV but the decent quality stuff is too high level. Eg Simon schama and his history of Britain. 

History is written by the victors! That is undeniably true.

So how then do you teach history? what deliberate or unconscious bias do you spin it with? Who decides?

Looking back I think I had maybe an hour of History a week in secondary school, less than 150 hours across my education. Most of it incredibly boring to a 11-16 year old.

150 hours to cover the whole of human history, most subjects, slavery included were only touched on and I sort of recall an emphasis on medieval kings and queens. Even WW2 was barely mentioned (too recent, too raw). Since then we've added another incident packed 50 years to be considered, Vietnam, Space flight, the EU, terrorism, 9-11, cold war, Falklands, etc . What to add and what to delete from the curriculum?

[cheron85]

20 hours ago, Alpha said:

Because then we start erasing all of history in plain sight to achieve what? Equality? It's not standing in the way. 

No-one is suggesting we erase history - I'm not sure that's even possible unless you're Dr Who

However statues aren't history - They are a physical symbol celebrating something or someone which exist right now in our modern world - If we feel they don't celebrate modern values why should they still exist?

The problem isn't about ignoring or destroying the historical influence an individual has had - It's about the fact that statues don't tell the full story behind them - In fact they don't tell any of the story (and are mostly an eyesore)

I've asked this a number of times and no-one has replied - Why not replace the statue with an information board? Loads of national trust properties have them, you can get a lot more information about the great things the person has done and the bad things and alongside that we can also educate people - Then we're also adding to people's knowledge of history

[FindernRam]

On 13/06/2020 at 11:51, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Are 'Buy Local' campaigns xenophobic?

Eco friendly though! Less mileage for seller or buyer.. Just saying?

[Van der MoodHoover]

4 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

History is written by the victors! That is undeniably true.

So how then do you teach history? what deliberate or unconscious bias do you spin it with? Who decides?

Looking back I think I had maybe an hour of History a week in secondary school, less than 150 hours across my education. Most of it incredibly boring to a 11-16 year old.

150 hours to cover the whole of human history, most subjects, slavery included were only touched on and I sort of recall an emphasis on medieval kings and queens. Even WW2 was barely mentioned (too recent, too raw). Since then we've added another incident packed 50 years to be considered, Vietnam, Space flight, the EU, terrorism, 9-11, cold war, Falklands, etc . What to add and what to delete from the curriculum?

Almost unteachable - I didn't do History as a subject and the snippets I recall that came up as a youngster were really superficial like Magna Carta - which you can revisit time after time and get different perspectives on.

[FindernRam]

7 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

No-one is suggesting we erase history - I'm not sure that's even possible unless you're Dr Who

However statues aren't history - They are a physical symbol celebrating something or someone which exist right now in our modern world - If we feel they don't celebrate modern values why should they still exist?

The problem isn't about ignoring or destroying the historical influence an individual has had - It's about the fact that statues don't tell the full story behind them - In fact they don't tell any of the story (and are mostly an eyesore)

I've asked this a number of times and no-one has replied - Why not replace the statue with an information board? Loads of national trust properties have them, you can get a lot more information about the great things the person has done and the bad things and alongside that we can also educate people - Then we're also adding to people's knowledge of history

Statues are generally part of the building or area, and pretty much reflect the architectural style of the day. Old buildings tend to have statues in/on/around them. It is part of the overall look.

I was in Oxford last year for the first time, admiring the buildings. I remember seeing the Rhodes statue building and liking it. No idea who the statue was, not particularly bothered. Take Rhodes down and put someone else of similar style up there, the building will look just as good. And apart from a few agitators no-one will give a toss, so why bother? 

Another thought , most agitators in Oxford are students, in a few years they will graduate get jobs in the real world and be mildly embarrassed by their behaviour.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

Keep politics away from the field of play

Rubbish. It can never be politically neutral and so must show which 'side' it is on.

Was quite moved when unexpectedly all players/staff 'took the knee' before the start of the Villa v Sheff U game.

[Red_Dawn]

I thought it was absolutely embarrassing for the Premier League.

Just one cursory look at the BLM website shows their actual aims, other than a reported mission of equality. Ending capitalism, abolishing the police, ending the nuclear family. That's what we're supposed to unflinchingly support?

There's a problem with police brutality in the US, but I don't think that is solely to do with racism. More an issues with training, critical thinking, and a distinct lack of accountability.

Nor are their problems applicable to the UK, if anything, our police are too much of a soft touch IMO.

I wonder if the players taking a knee last night will do the same, or boycott the World Cup when its played in Qatar. A country in which women and homosexuals are treated as second class citizens, and actual slave labour was used to build the stadiums they played in?

Yeah I didn't think so either.

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Red_Dawn said:

I wonder if the players taking a knee last night will do the same, or boycott the World Cup when its played in Qatar. A country in which women and homosexuals are treated as second class citizens, and actual slave labour was used to build the stadiums they played in?

Yeah I didn't think so either.

You think they shouldn't bother at all then because they can't show 'support' for every perceived injustice?

[Red_Dawn]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You think they shouldn't bother at all then because they can't show 'support' for every perceived injustice?

I think its remarkably hypocritical to express support for a group calling for the ending of capitalism, when the PL is the very epitome of capitalist prosperity.

And supporting a group trying to remove statues for colonial pasts, but playing in stadiums constructed by slave labourers?

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Red_Dawn said:

I think its remarkably hypocritical to express support for a group calling for the ending of capitalism, when the PL is the very epitome of capitalist prosperity.

And supporting a group trying to remove statues for colonial pasts, but playing in stadiums constructed by slave labourers?

I imagine it's possible to support #BLM without calling for the end of capitalism, and play in stadiums built by slave labourers and protest about it. Rather than not bother at all in case anyone shouts 'hypocrite' at them.

[Anon]

There's plenty of nuanced discussion to be had about whether certain statues are appropriate or whether we should erect statues at all, but in practice that's not what's happening. People don't (or they shouldn't) get to commit vandalism and then demand others justify to them why what they did was wrong. If these statues are so offensive, start a petition. If you present a strong enough argument then maybe you can convince enough people to agree and have them removed legally. It is not a smart idea to endorse mob rule. The mob won't always agree with you.

[1of4]

13 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Statues are generally part of the building or area, and pretty much reflect the architectural style of the day. Old buildings tend to have statues in/on/around them. It is part of the overall look.

I was in Oxford last year for the first time, admiring the buildings. I remember seeing the Rhodes statue building and liking it. No idea who the statue was, not particularly bothered. Take Rhodes down and put someone else of similar style up there, the building will look just as good. And apart from a few agitators no-one will give a toss, so why bother? 

Another thought , most agitators in Oxford are students, in a few years they will graduate get jobs in the real world and be mildly embarrassed by their behaviour.

Why would anyone in the future feel embarrassed about supporting BLM now? 

As for for them getting a job in the real world. Acquiring thousands of pounds of debt, while obtaining an education, I think they are already living in the real world.

[ramsbottom]

On 13/06/2020 at 14:05, Alpha said:

BlackLivesMatter and positive steps taken to make sure we are all treated equal (never be achieved. Class, gender, sexuality etc) can only be a good thing

That BlackLivesMatter message has been used by racists and anarchists and all types of knob head to attack white people, other ethnic minorities (see the racist abuse Terry Crews got if it's still there) British people, American people and more though. 

I would probably have gone with #Equality or something a bit more removed from the current controversy. 

#BAMEequality maybe. 

I always find it funny when football does anything to spread the good word. I shouldn't laugh because a PL game is the ideal place for a message to spread. But it's always hypocritical.

We promote fair play, equality for all etc etc. 

But you can take a bribe, tell a ref to feck off, call someone a negro, spit and cheat. That's all cool. 

But behave on twitter or else you bring the game into disrepute 

I know they were trying, but Sky's attempt at showing solidarity during the football last night by highlighting movies & TV shows by & featuring black people just came across as a crass ad for their channels.  It was so wide of the mark it was laughable.

[Red_Dawn]

16 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I imagine it's possible to support #BLM without calling for the end of capitalism, and play in stadiums built by slave labourers and protest about it. Rather than not bother at all in case anyone shouts 'hypocrite' at them.

Can you support the EDL without attaching yourself to the racist nature of their cause?

[ramit]

34 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Rubbish. It can never be politically neutral and so must show which 'side' it is on.

Was quite moved when unexpectedly all players/staff 'took the knee' before the start of the Villa v Sheff U game.

Why exactly can't the game be played without involving politics?

[GB SPORTS]

1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

Eco friendly though! Less mileage for seller or buyer.. Just saying?

I know someone who won't buy Fairtrade because of the Food/product miles factor in bringing it to the Supermarkets in the UK.

 

Ok if it's Coffee etc. where we can't produce it the UK, but there are other products e.g. cut flowers which can be grown closer to home.

[RoyMac5]

34 minutes ago, ramit said:

Why exactly can't the game be played without involving politics?

You tell me how it can. Keep in mind all the politics already involved in things like the World Cup, Olympics or even just the normal 'no standing' UK game when you do tell me.

[RoyMac5]

39 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

Can you support the EDL without attaching yourself to the racist nature of their cause?

You are suggesting that all #BLM supporters know the things you're talking about - when did they become a 'group' rather than a movement?

[Mucker1884]

It now appears that it is no longer acceptable to portray  a well-dressed elderly African-American man... said to be based on a famous head waiter at a Chicago hotel during the 1940's, and much respected by both his peers and patrons alike, by all accounts... on the front of micro-wave rice (amongst other things) due to colour of his skin.

May your flabber remain much less gasted than mine, sir... and heartfelt thanks for all the fine meals you have served upon to me, over the past 5 decades.
Your outstanding service will not go unrecognised, sir, but you will be sadly missed.

RIP Uncle Ben.
xxx

[Alph]

53 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

No-one is suggesting we erase history - I'm not sure that's even possible unless you're Dr Who

However statues aren't history - They are a physical symbol celebrating something or someone which exist right now in our modern world - If we feel they don't celebrate modern values why should they still exist?

The problem isn't about ignoring or destroying the historical influence an individual has had - It's about the fact that statues don't tell the full story behind them - In fact they don't tell any of the story (and are mostly an eyesore)

I've asked this a number of times and no-one has replied - Why not replace the statue with an information board? Loads of national trust properties have them, you can get a lot more information about the great things the person has done and the bad things and alongside that we can also educate people - Then we're also adding to people's knowledge of history

I often stop to look at statues, old buildings and architecture. One thing I hate about Derby is everything new comes from the space age. Looks like it's made from plastic and bean cans. 

I like to see things restored or preserved. 

An information board would work. I can think of no reason it wouldn't work better than a statue. But it would be made in 2020.

To my eyes that's like ripping down these listed buildings we have in Derby that are a neglected damp and rotten mess to replace them with practical industrial units while sticking a picture of what used to be here. 

It will happen one day. They'll be replaced. But as much as we can save as possible the better. 

It's always a shame imo when you come across something in history where it's all blanks because nobody recorded it or traces of it were lost.