The Politics Thread 2020

[Eddie]

41 minutes ago, jono said:

Of course it is but some people have been “offended” haven’t they ? .. your playing switcheroo there mate 

I'm not (I can't and won't speak for others)- please find a single post where I have supported throwing a statue in the harbour, spraying graffiti on Churchill's statue or obliterating street signs - or, for that matter, making Nazi salutes at the Cenotaph or pissing on a memorial to a policeman who gave his life saving others. I have been very consistent in this whole matter. I totally support the principles of BLM, but I am totally against any demonstrations at this point in time because it's dangerous and stupid.

[jono]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

I'm not (I can't and won't speak for others)- please find a single post where I have supported throwing a statue in the harbour, spraying graffiti on Churchill's statue or obliterating street signs - or, for that matter, making Nazi salutes at the Cenotaph or pissing on a memorial to a policeman who gave his life saving others. I have been very consistent in this whole matter. I totally support the principles of BLM, but I am totally against any demonstrations at this point in time because it's dangerous and stupid.

I never said that you did .. I was just pointing out that you seem to think some people have a right to be offended whilst others don’t

 

“Posted 5 hours ago

   10 hours ago,  Eddie said: 

The moral outrage of some offended white people is palpable.“

I simply pointed out the pathetic Penny Lane “offence” and thus the hypocrisy that your remark seemed to contain. 
 

regardless of the core rightness of the BLM cause, there are a lot of people out there looking to be offended and their motive has F all to do with BLM. You chose to focus in your post on white moral outrage .. I simply pointed out that there was bi partisan moral outrage. I maintain much of it is, what might be described as a lot of round objects 
 

But we do agree on one thing .. in the present state there is no excuse or reason for the demos at this time and that does not diminish to basic rightness of the cause, it’s just good sense. 

[MaltRam]

An article published by Reuters today has the following quote:

“Police violence is a leading cause of death for black people in America, in large part because over-policing of black and brown communities results in unnecessary police contacts and unnecessary use of force.” - Carl Takei, a senior staff attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union.

Firstly, there are a little over 40 million black people in the USA. My fag packet calcs suggest over 250,000 of those will die in any one year. Somewhat less than 250 per year are killed by the police. A leading cause of death?

Secondly...over policing? 50% of US murders are committed by black people. 90% of those against other black people. That adds up to around 8000 black deaths per year. Where would you want the police?

My point here is that there is a lot of baalocks being spouted by people who should know better and the data is not leading the debate. This is dangerous. I'm not saying there aren't problems, I'm saying they're not as clear cut as people make out.

What they need is not less police, it's a good education, proper access to health and social care, an end to the rigged electoral system...and as @Jourdan mentioned, a strong look at how they can help themselves.

When people in this country talk BLM in the context of the UK, given that we just about as much equality of those things as we can provide, I struggle to see what can be done other than, as @Eddie rightly points out, to keep on calling it out when it shows itself, same as any other unfairness, harsh treatment and un-British lack of fair play.

Let's leave the yanks to their own shitstorm, take @Alpha's point on board about accepting history for what it is rather than trying to whitewash it (if you'll excuse the phrase), and let's get on with worrying about Brexit and covid-19, which, by the way, has killed over 20000 black US citizens so far.

I saw Raheem Sterling quoted as saying "The only disease right now is the racism that we are fighting". I wish this was true.

 

 

[Norman]

46 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

 

I saw Raheem Sterling quoted as saying "The only disease right now is the racism that we are fighting". I wish this was true.

 

 

He also quoted that 33 percent of players on the Premier league are black to back up his statistics that black people are underrepresented in coaching and management roles. 

Which I thought was quite ironic. 

[Highgate]

4 minutes ago, Norman said:

He also quoted that 33 percent of players on the Premier league are black to back up his statistics that black people are underrepresented in coaching and management roles. 

Which I thought was quite ironic. 

Why is that ironic?  The notion that some races are suitable for certain types of work involving physical activity (such as playing football) but not suitable for jobs relying on mental skills (such as coaching or management) has been the underpinning of the racist mindset for centuries now.  Where is the irony in what Sterling said?

[Norman]

13 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Why is that ironic?  The notion that some races are suitable for certain types of work involving physical activity (such as playing football) but not suitable for jobs relying on mental skills (such as coaching or management) has been the underpinning of the racist mindset for centuries now.  Where is the irony in what Sterling said?

For ducks sake. 

He used a figure quoting a massive over-representation to prove a point about under-representation.

The amount of black players who have taken up coaching courses, failed to get a job etc would have been more helpful figures to quote. 

I thought it was ironic. 

[Norman]

1 minute ago, Norman said:

 

 

[Highgate]

29 minutes ago, Norman said:

For ducks sake. 

He used a figure quoting a massive over-representation to prove a point about under-representation.

The amount of black players who have taken up coaching courses, failed to get a job etc would have been more helpful figures to quote. 

I thought it was ironic. 

No, still nothing ironic there.

It's the very fact that there are such high numbers of black players playing the game...and yet so few black managers/coaches that makes his point. 

Some barriers to minorities have been broken long ago, such as participation in professional sport, and black footballers have flourished as a result.  But that doesn't mean that other barriers don't still exist, such as getting their first break in coaching or management.

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, Highgate said:

No, still nothing ironic there.

It's the very fact that there are such high numbers of black players playing the game...and yet so few black managers/coaches that makes his point. 

Some barriers to minorities have been broken long ago, such as participation in professional sport, and black footballers have flourished as a result.  But that doesn't mean that other barriers don't still exist, such as getting their first break in coaching or management.

I mean what about the converse? Why is black players in England way higher than the percentage of black people, is that discrimination against white people? Is that a barrier for whites? (No of course it isn't) I don't think teams in England give a duck as long as they do well, I honestly do not believe it's anything to do about race, they'll employ anyone good enough.

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, jono said:

I never said that you did .. I was just pointing out that you seem to think some people have a right to be offended whilst others don’t

 

“Posted 5 hours ago

   10 hours ago,  Eddie said: 

The moral outrage of some offended white people is palpable.“

I simply pointed out the pathetic Penny Lane “offence” and thus the hypocrisy that your remark seemed to contain. 
 

regardless of the core rightness of the BLM cause, there are a lot of people out there looking to be offended and their motive has F all to do with BLM. You chose to focus in your post on white moral outrage .. I simply pointed out that there was bi partisan moral outrage. I maintain much of it is, what might be described as a lot of round objects 
 

But we do agree on one thing .. in the present state there is no excuse or reason for the demos at this time and that does not diminish to basic rightness of the cause, it’s just good sense. 

You seem slightly offended, B4 seems very offended, and the average Daily Mail reader ( @Curtains) seems ready to explode with indignation. Still, it's nearly time for footy again, so we can put these petty differences on one side and target our grievances, rage and hatred where it is more deserved - the Gumps.

 

[Jourdan]

12 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

Absolutely, but what you're talking about is not an issue exclusive to non-white communities. You mentioned Allenton - that's a poor majority white area, with failing schools, gangs, anti-social behaviour, family breakdowns, prejudiced older generations etc. All the same stuff you talk about

The common factor is the poverty cycle. Yes some families (such as yours) rise up and refuse to let it overwhelm them, and they eventually get out of it. But many don't - and I think to say they didn't try hard enough is too simplistic

The big difference is skin colour though - a poor white lad from Allenton can put on a suit, cover up his tats and learn to speak nicely. He might well get that job that lifts him out of the poverty trap. The poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job

So yes, fundamentally change starts within, and everyone has individual responsibility for their life - but for some it's a much steeper slope to climb

I don’t think it’s a steeper slope and if it is for some, shouldn’t they embrace it? Didn’t Roosevelt say that nothing that is worth doing comes easy? I don’t think any of us would appreciate where we’d got to if it wasn’t challenging in some respects.

Two lads (one black, one white) with virtually the same background won’t necessarily be separated by skin colour and it’s dangerous if many people instantly jump to that conclusion. They’ll likely be separated by what’s on their CV and how they come across during an interview.

You can easily be taught how to write a CV and cover letter that stands out and similarly you can be taught how to present and promote yourself in interviews and this is help available to both black and white people.

So what it will boil down to is which lad is the most well-prepared and if they were trained, who took the most on board. If you are the Sol Campbell of troubled kids, you could be white and have no discernible advantage at all.

I am not saying it’s simply a question of effort and desire to get out of such a trap. But hard work is over half the battle won. Absolutely you need role models and you need a good support network to give you the right guidance at the right time - which is why I talked about the importance of family structures in one of my earlier posts.

I think prospects for young people in this scenario can be really good if they are given the right guidance and the right direction and they are shown where they could excel and apply their skills.

I think back to when my younger brother was encouraged to apply for the Network Rail apprenticeship scheme and how much it has changed his life.

He was given the encouragement to apply, then fought tooth and nail to get the apprenticeship at 17. He worked so hard to the point where he is now (some nine years later) earning around £40,000 as an experienced track and systems engineer. Not to mention he has bought a house in a good area, drives an Audi, and has started a family with his girlfriend.

I wonder how many more success stories there would be if people stopped finding it so easy to place blame elsewhere. Do my brother’s circle of 5-6 white friends scream black privilege because he’s making more money and has a better lifestyle than all of them, despite similar access to opportunities?

The only places where I would imagine it is really tough and unforgiving for anyone born into difficult circumstances are the major cities - London, Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester.

Everywhere else, especially in Derby, I see enough ways out of a struggle if you understand what skills are valued and you are not too proud to dig in and work for what you want.

I can appreciate this won’t ring true for every black person and every black experience, especially in the US where I do believe the problems run a lot deeper.

But in the UK, I think enough progress has been made to say to your sons and your daughters, go out there and you can make something happen.

[Jourdan]

13 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I agree absolutely with part of your thinking and I don't think any of my posts would lead anyone to believe otherwise. That said, the BLM's motivations are wider than the opportunities available to BAME youth, so whilst I agree that some of the issues arise from withing family households, many do not.

I've posted a couple of videos of Akala discussing these exact points which I'd recommend you watching as I think he summarises these points very ably.

I am not unfamiliar with Akala and there is no doubt that he is a very bright, very eloquent, very studious and very thorough individual - which begs the question why wouldn’t the BLM movement have someone like him front and centre to present their cause in the most compelling way possible?

If the likes of Piers Morgan and James O’Brien (who love the sounds of their own voices more than anything else) will listen, that’s half the battle right there. Others would follow, I have no doubt.

Personally you spoke of the institutionalised racism in our police force and maybe that’s something I am not aware of, because my interactions with police in 30 years of life have been so minimal, aside from brief exchanges as a football fan.

That is not for me to say it doesn’t exist, but I live by a good rule of thumb, if you are not giving the police a reason to bother you, odds are they probably won’t.

But again perhaps my world view is warped by the fact that I’ve been exposed to drug use, criminal behaviour, violence and such things and always been able to make up my own mind and always decide for myself what’s wrong and what’s right. Let’s not pretend we don’t have the power and the ability to say no.

OK, I am bowing out here. I need to prepare for 2:55pm on Saturday. ?

[Sith Happens]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

I am not unfamiliar with Akala and there is no doubt that he is a very bright, very eloquent, very studious and very thorough individual - which begs the question why wouldn’t the BLM movement have someone like him front and centre to present their cause in the most compelling way possible?

If the likes of Piers Morgan and James O’Brien (who love the sounds of their own voices more than anything else) will listen, that’s half the battle right there. Others would follow, I have no doubt.

Personally you spoke of the institutionalised racism in our police force and maybe that’s something I am not aware of, because my interactions with police in 30 years of life have been so minimal, aside from brief exchanges as a football fan.

That is not for me to say it doesn’t exist, but I live by a good rule of thumb, if you are not giving the police a reason to bother you, odds are they probably won’t.

But again perhaps my world view is warped by the fact that I’ve been exposed to drug use, criminal behaviour, violence and such things and always been able to make up my own mind and always decide for myself what’s wrong and what’s right. Let’s not pretend we don’t have the power and the ability to say no.

OK, I am bowing out here. I need to prepare for 2:55pm on Saturday. ?

Kick off is 1 pm

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I am not unfamiliar with Akala and there is no doubt that he is a very bright, very eloquent, very studious and very thorough individual - which begs the question why wouldn’t the BLM movement have someone like him front and centre to present their cause in the most compelling way possible?

If the likes of Piers Morgan and James O’Brien (who love the sounds of their own voices more than anything else) will listen, that’s half the battle right there. Others would follow, I have no doubt.

Personally you spoke of the institutionalised racism in our police force and maybe that’s something I am not aware of, because my interactions with police in 30 years of life have been so minimal, aside from brief exchanges as a football fan.

That is not for me to say it doesn’t exist, but I live by a good rule of thumb, if you are not giving the police a reason to bother you, odds are they probably won’t.

But again perhaps my world view is warped by the fact that I’ve been exposed to drug use, criminal behaviour, violence and such things and always been able to make up my own mind and always decide for myself what’s wrong and what’s right. Let’s not pretend we don’t have the power and the ability to say no.

OK, I am bowing out here. I need to prepare for 2:55pm on Saturday. ?

I for one have really enjoyed your posts on the issue for me they have provided much needed balance , although we are not America and far from it there is still work to be done but we do have a good core to be working from 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

Kick off is 1 pm

I know, I know.

It’s just a joke because some people are probably expecting that myself and my brother-in-arms Roy are counting the days until we can roll out the Cocu Out threads again.

???

[Jourdan]

24 minutes ago, Archied said:

I for one have really enjoyed your posts on the issue for me they have provided much needed balance , although we are not America and far from it there is still work to be done but we do have a good core to be working from 

Thank you.

I think that is it. I am just trying to be balanced. I think this is a good place to share my views because people are open to discussion in the main. 

I have avoided doing so on social media because people can get pretty rabid when others’ views don’t align with their own.

The family reunion is for sure going to be interesting. Coronavirus conspiracies from Mum, my little sister sporting a raised fist morning, noon and night, and my brother making us all wear hazmat suits to see my newborn niece.

 ???

 

[jono]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

You seem slightly offended, B4 seems very offended, and the average Daily Mail reader ( @Curtains) seems ready to explode with indignation. Still, it's nearly time for footy again, so we can put these petty differences on one side and target our grievances, rage and hatred where it is more deserved - the Gumps.

 

With you on the Gumps ??. Although I am not offended at all, I just find the moral indignation, on both sides, pathetic. 
 

on the one hand you have someone travelling to London to “defend statues” actually had 16 pints before kick off and had to wizz against some railings. A man truely committed to defending heritage? and someone “protesting” uses a spray can to paint racist on the penny lane street sign and those who find it necessary to throw a bicycle at a police man ? Scions of the oppressed ? 
  Not indignant at all. Just seeing it for what it is .. Round Objects 

yep, let’s get back to football 

[Jourdan]

A very interesting video that I thought I would share.

[Ghost of Clough]

Just had a quick look at the 'poverty > education > income' cycle....

A high percentage of black children are born into poverty (as well as Bangladeshis and Pakistanis). Although, this is highly likely due to those same 3 groups having the highest unemployment rates. However, this makes GCSE performance very surprising as whites appear to be disadvantaged by poverty than any other ethnicity. 

39% of blacks achieve get a GCSE grade 5 or above in English and maths, compared with 43% of whites. At this stage in their education, they're at fairly similar levels. For every black pupil, there are 15.3 whites.
However, 5% of black achieve 3 A grades at A level, whereas more than 11% of whites do. For every black pupil, there are 13.8 whites. Why does there appear to be a sudden drop off in 'performance'?

Average pay is about 10% higher for whites than for blacks - £11ph for blacks vs £12ph for whites. Notice how this is a similar gap to the percentage who achieved grade 5 GCSEs? Chinese, Indian and mixed ethnic groups have better pay, but Bangladeshi and Pakistani pay is lower.

 

Solutions to be found:

• why poverty effects whites the most
• why blacks, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis performance drops off between GCSE and A levels

The second point above should also solve the massive difference in unemployment and poverty rates.

[cheron85]

16 hours ago, Alpha said:

In response to the statues thing. I agree we can review what we choose to celebrate. 

But firstly, Colston wasn't celebrated in history for slave trading.

Secondly, they did discuss it but got locked in a 17th century slavery vs Bristol's City history debate. 

Someone said there were plans to move it. That's fair enough. 

I'm just fed up of the suggestion that by defending British history and Colston's history or anything like that I'm anti anything. Or there are questions of why shed a tear for a slave trader. 

"Oh, so you think Colston the slave trader should have a monument" is the kind of argument I'm seeing, I think.

Personally I'd get rid of all statues - I don't think they add anything to anyone - If someone has made a contribution to history they're in the history books, not sure why we need an eyesore of some uggo from years long gone

There's a point made by this American comedian/writer about statues - Essentially saying yes, many 'great' people from history had dark sides - But that people in the future will judge us in the same way

I think his points about our clothes being made in sweatshops and phone parts coming from cobalt essentially mined by slaves (in 2020, yep, that's our moral line apparently...) is interesting