The Politics Thread 2020

[Comrade 86]

34 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Sasha posted it in this thread about 3 hours ago. A Talksport production. Just checked and it is still there. Would be interested on your viewpoint ?

I got about halfway through and had to give up. In truth, had I been in a room with those two, I'd probably have banged their heads together. Unfortunately Gary McFarlane is a poor choice of spokesperson as some of his views are quite ridiculous. They are interspersed with some valid points but I think by the time he chooses to stop trying to be so controversial, the more meaningful elements are lost in the fugue of rubbish spouted such as the removal of the police force in London. I think we all know how that would end! It's another example of ideologies outweighing good sense I'm afraid.

I think this adds weight to your point that more credible leadership is required if the BLM movement is to avoid alienating those who might otherwise support their more meaningful initiatives. Have a listen to the Akala links posted as in turn, I'd welcome your take on how he positions the argument. They are both short pieces of less than 5 minutes each but offer a deal more food for thought than any number of hours wasted listening to the two Talksport divvies.

[Alph]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I've been silently sobbing since they pulled down that statue in Bristol. What's next? The removal of another racist statue? Where will it end!

With the removal of The Prophet Muhammed depictions 

The removal of the statue of Barbarossa in Istanbul

History without context is ridiculous. 

Many lands (and seas) have made easy pickings for slaves. Because they're people can be exploited or conquered. 

It's not so simple to go "He married a 6 year old? Paedo. He trades slaves? Racist. He fought for Islam, Christianity, he hunted the natives of America etc. 

History has nothing to do with this. Colston wasn't oppressing black people in 2020. They couldn't even decide what to do with his statue.

All sat around scratching their heads "er well he was bad but then er we have er Bristol and hospitals we built and.."

Exactly. It's history. The world has changed and that's why we are in no position to judge. How many rapists are there statues of? 

How many soldiers and generals would allow their men to mass rape and pillage. To kill thousands of citizens and burn their homes? 

Churchill was racist. He was. Tear it down. The soldiers that fought under him. How did they view minorities?  How did your ancestors view Africans? Mine? 

They would value a good horse over a slave of any colour. Dogs would sit at the masters feet while an African wouldn't be able to enter the house. 

If Dogs start walking on two legs in the next 200 years we are in big trouble. 

Colston is all over Bristol. Nobody thought about how black people of 2020 would feel about it when they named stone after him. 

Where does it end? Good question.

[Curtains]

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-52992669

[djfred84]

I think it starts with learning history warts and all learn both sides of a person good and bad i.e churchill kids are not born racist so at some point people learn to see racial issues and i think that starts at school. As for how far we have come america have had a black president.   

[Comrade 86]

Wretch 32's dad tasered in his home by the Met.

The police watchdog has contacted the Metropolitan police after the 62-year-old father of rapper Wretch 32 was filmed being shot by a Taser stun gun by officers from the force.

The Independent Office for Police Conduct [IOPC) said was it considering whether to investigate the footage, after it voiced general concern about the increased use of Tasers against members of the black and minority ethnic communities.

Full article here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/10/calls-to-investigate-after-police-taser-uk-rappers-father

[Ramarena]

I’m surprised that intelligent people have been taken in by the “all lives matter” line.

When white Zimbabwean farmers were being attacked and farms forcibly taken from them there was a lot of support for the white farmers in this country which I can see a reasoning for.

However “all lives matter” and surely white farmers and those supporting their cause should not have been pleading a special case as all lives matter and all farmers matter afterall!

Do we start applying this across the board to all protests from BLM to protests to library closure protests or is it only applicable in current scenario because it suits a particular agenda?

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I’m surprised that intelligent people have been taken in by the “all lives matter” line.

It dilutes the issue, and that makes it easier to ignore.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

Why aren’t more black families instilling in their children the belief that they can achieve what they want if they set their minds to it? Why aren’t they taking charge of the narrative and aspiring for more for themselves and as a result their children?

This is what I am saying. A lot of these issues - they start from within.

Absolutely, but what you're talking about is not an issue exclusive to non-white communities. You mentioned Allenton - that's a poor majority white area, with failing schools, gangs, anti-social behaviour, family breakdowns, prejudiced older generations etc. All the same stuff you talk about

The common factor is the poverty cycle. Yes some families (such as yours) rise up and refuse to let it overwhelm them, and they eventually get out of it. But many don't - and I think to say they didn't try hard enough is too simplistic

The big difference is skin colour though - a poor white lad from Allenton can put on a suit, cover up his tats and learn to speak nicely. He might well get that job that lifts him out of the poverty trap. The poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job

So yes, fundamentally change starts within, and everyone has individual responsibility for their life - but for some it's a much steeper slope to climb

[Ramarena]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It dilutes the issue, and that makes it easier to ignore.

It’s political correctness gone mad!

[Alph]

54 minutes ago, djfred84 said:

I think it starts with learning history warts and all learn both sides of a person good and bad i.e churchill kids are not born racist so at some point people learn to see racial issues and i think that starts at school. As for how far we have come america have had a black president.   

Yeah I agree. And as Morgan Freeman said, Black history is American history. Or Britsh in our case. 

All this finger pointing at British people and white people and their history... what's it all for? An apology? What? Edward Colston traded black slaves. So? England fought the Scots. France has wars with England through ages. 

What's with all the "look what you did"

We are all aware that African Slavery existed internally too? We know African slave traders existed? Are they racist? 

Slavery goes far beyond the white western people taking African black people. 

So trading in slaves didn't make you racist. It still doesn't. 

Slavery still exists. Trafficking people still exists. 

Oh look at white people crying over there racist statues.

Yeah? Well look at black people crying over the 17th Century. 

Not helpful is it? So why are we dwelling on British past. Why are statues being pulled down? Why are they being defended? Why are they getting all the attention. Finger pointing about who wronged who first. 

Teach history better. Include the story of Black Britain. Celebrate Black freedom. It's all our history

But I'm sick of this idea that what went before us is stopping us moving forward. 

Who tore the Colston statue down? Why? Was it oppressing the people of colour? Was it inspiring white supremacy? Is Dragons Den getting fed up of Ian Holloway suggesting a recruitment business focusing on the brutal treatment of Nigerians? 

It's got duck all to do with moving forward. None of it. It wasn't thrown up in 2016. 

Let's make progress by taking a little trip to the 17th Century. 

It's history!!! Leave it all!!! Expand on it or leave it!! 

[i-Ram]

48 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:The big difference is skin colour though - a poor white lad from Allenton can put on a suit, cover up his tats and learn to speak nicely. He might well get that job that lifts him out of the poverty trap. The poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job.

Is this fact or just a sweeping ‘woke’ generalisation? What actual experience or evidence have you got to support this comment? Reading the Guardian or some on-trend website doesn’t count.

[cheron85]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Why aren’t more black families instilling in their children the belief that they can achieve what they want if they set their minds to it? Why aren’t they taking charge of the narrative and aspiring for more for themselves and as a result their children?

I think at the moment unfortunately people who make it out of poverty are the exception rather than the rule - I did a quite google search for social mobility and the articles than came back overwhelmingly said we've gone backwards over the last decade

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/30/social-mobility-in-uk-virtually-stagnant-since-2014

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/21/social-mobility-decline-britain-official-survey-finds

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

History has nothing to do with this. Colston wasn't oppressing black people in 2020. They couldn't even decide what to do with his statue.

But why not review the things we choose to 'celebrate' in our towns and cities on a more regular basis? Just because some people years ago decided to build a statue doesn't mean we have to keep it

Using the football analogy - Just because one manager buys a player (say for £4m) and gives them a long deal (say 4 years) doesn't mean subsequent managers need to use him (yes, it's Anya)

57 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Do we start applying this across the board to all protests from BLM to protests to library closure protests or is it only applicable in current scenario because it suits a particular agenda?

Yeh, it would be really weird if the argument for not closing a Library in Derby was "All Libraries Matter"

If there's a societal problem which disproportionally affects one group then we need to address it as such - BLM brings focus to an important issue which we've not been addressing properly

3 hours ago, i-Ram said:

The protests I think also are, or will become, counter productive.  That would be a great pity, as societal reform is clearly needed starting with education in my view. 

I think we've had years and year and years of trying to address this with education - I'm willing to see if another approach might work better

For me leaving it to education makes it a 'quiet' issue - I think the more consistent and drawn out 'noise' there is around BLM and the movement keeping it front of mind the more likely we are as a society to make it a priority

[i-Ram]

Not sure why @SchtivePesley why the quote didn’t come through - I was challenging the statement: The big difference is skin colour though - a poor white lad from Allenton can put on a suit, cover up his tats and learn to speak nicely. He might well get that job that lifts him out of the poverty trap. The poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job.

[Stive Pesley]

23 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Not sure why @SchtivePesley why the quote didn’t come through - I was challenging the statement: The big difference is skin colour though - a poor white lad from Allenton can put on a suit, cover up his tats and learn to speak nicely. He might well get that job that lifts him out of the poverty trap. The poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job.

If only you'd taken a few seconds more before pressing that send button.  

 

 

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

If only you'd taken a few seconds more before pressing that send button.  

If only that was the reason. Now come on, fill me in on your experiences of racism in the Allenton job market.

[jono]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

The moral outrage of some offended white people is palpable.

 

And Penny lane. ? How many here sang that song or even listened to it ? shame on you. Tear yourself down and throw yourself in the Mersey. And apologise on your knees. 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

Absolutely, but what you're talking about is not an issue exclusive to non-white communities. You mentioned Allenton - that's a poor majority white area, with failing schools, gangs, anti-social behaviour, family breakdowns, prejudiced older generations etc. All the same stuff you talk about

The common factor is the poverty cycle. Yes some families (such as yours) rise up and refuse to let it overwhelm them, and they eventually get out of it. But many don't - and I think to say they didn't try hard enough is too simplistic

The big difference is skin colour though - a poor white lad from Allenton can put on a suit, cover up his tats and learn to speak nicely. He might well get that job that lifts him out of the poverty trap. The poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job

So yes, fundamentally change starts within, and everyone has individual responsibility for their life - but for some it's a much steeper slope to climb

Something I have argued for a long time with friends who are less socialist inclined is that it’s also luck of the draw ,, I know lots and lots of people who are decent ,very hard working ,diligent and honest but they are never really ever going to make much more than a living and often a poor one at that , some people just don’t have the brain or personality to turn they’re hard work into money or build a business, ,doesn’t make them any less deserving of a good standard of living

[Norman]

29 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

If only that was the reason. Now come on, fill me in on your experiences of racism in the Allenton job market.

Think it's just a case of rich white man telling others what the problem is. All very Corbynista.

[djfred84]

Listening to Some more Akala you actually see that the racism fight is a key part of a bigger wider social fight, Why is it that there is an elite system Boris Johnson thought it was his divine right to be PM that same system that enables the 2% to 3% all of wealth and control enables structural racism so that they maintain power and narrative. If you start to question Racial structures that are designed you have white people question why elite structures exist.

[djfred84]

7 minutes ago, Norman said:

Think it's just a case of rich white man telling others what the problem is. All very Corbynista.

You could be part right i'd say more Rich person trying to keep the status quo afterall to question why they are rich in the first place would be to question you're place in society.