The Politics Thread 2020

[i-Ram]

When I took to my bed with ‘fake’ illness my mum could always tell I was swinging the lead.  She had no medical trading. I am pretty confident that Boris is not clever enough to blag 8 days in a hospital bed given the amount of clinical attention he must have been receiving. What he did in the 8 weeks before is of more interest to me.

[Sith Happens]

27 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Covid has fried my brain ?

Oh no is that one of those secret symptoms? If so i reckon half this forum have had it since 2009 ?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

This is The Times article. It seems to be free to read unusually. It's quite scary if true, but there are a lot of unaccredited quotes in there. 

 

Typical anti-Tory leftwing bias from the....hold on....Sunday Times??

Some terrible things in there. Singapore copied our Pandemic planning process and had massive success. We didn't follow it. 

Or the scientist who had technical problems so the decision had been made before his email came in!

This must be the end of having leaders with no relevant experience. No point in conspiracy theories. We have just ended up in a situation where most of our government incompetent. Most of them would be unimpressive in a company of 250 people. It's a joke.

[angieram]

12 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Typical anti-Tory leftwing bias from the....hold on....Sunday Times??

Some terrible things in there. Singapore copied our Pandemic planning process and had massive success. We didn't follow it. 

Or the scientist who had technical problems so the decision had been made before his email came in!

This must be the end of having leaders with no relevant experience. No point in conspiracy theories. We have just ended up in a situation where most of our government incompetent. Most of them would be unimpressive in a company of 250 people. It's a joke.

When you reacted angrily to my post I thought that you were disagreeing with the article but you seem to be agreeing with it!

I know others say stuff like this is all left wing propaganda but my experience inside services is that the NHS has never been good at the big picture stuff because there is so much central bureaucracy and nothing moves until the higher-ups say so. 

Also it is all but impossible to release frontline staff even for 'mandatory' training because staffing levels don't allow it. Long term pandemic planning must have been way down every managers' 'to do list'. As for PPE stocks rotting unused in dusty cupboards, it's all easy to imagine. Whether you want to argue that this is about underfunding or managerial incompetence is up to you but the facts are there. It's probably a mix of the two.

There's a Derby Telegraph article about David Nieper's factory now supplying PPE gowns directly to local NHS trusts because they were fed up of waiting for the NHS machine to grind into action.  That's not three months ago, that's now.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/derbyshire-fashion-firm-give-direct-4045769

[Uptherams]

33 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Well I guess we could start with the missed Cobra meetings and the fact that we've over 20,000 people dead. Or maybe the fact that our PM was only making himself available Monday to Friday, the lack of PPE, the aborted herd immunity project, the fact that other countries have been wildly more successful in limiting spread and mortality rates or a whole gamut of other stuff.

Or we could pat ourselves on the back and just say, 'wow, what a great job we're doing' as you appear to want to. If we end up with 30, 40 or even 50 thousand dead, it's gonna be very hard to take you or your stance terribly seriously I'm afraid.

Each to their own I guess ?‍♂️

Missed Cobra meetings? Read the criticisms of the article. He doesn't have to be at them all. One minute Boris is a demagogue, the next a dictator and then in this case, the criticism is aimed at him for allowing his cabinet members to have some authority and responsibility. It's the constant moving of the goalposts that is the issue for me. Criticism for criticism's sake. 

There would be many times more deaths if we didn't have the capacity and the government provided the capacity.But no, instead of being appreciative that the government did a good job with the Nightingale hospitals, etc, it's straight on to anything else that will stick. 

Taking into account population density and deaths per million of the population, we are not an outlier. We haven't faired poorly. But the likes of you worryingly don't think we have, you appear to want us to be. 

 

[ariotofmyown]

7 minutes ago, angieram said:

When you reacted angrily to my post I thought that you were disagreeing with the article but you seem to be agreeing with it!

I know others say stuff like this is all left wing propaganda but my experience inside services is that the NHS has never been good at the big picture stuff because there is so much central bureaucracy and nothing moves until the higher-ups say so.

Sorry about that @angieram, it would be a dark day if I was ever angry at your posts!

Good point about the central bureaucracy and big picture stuff. And before anyone say that is the problem with the public sector, my experiences are identical in working with large, established private organisations within the UK too.

[1of4]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

Is it one of those easily written with hindsight? I would be more impressed if the article was dated 24/01 and was telling us exactly what was going to happen if we followed the path we did.

This is the issue for me, there are so many experts coming out the woodwork saying we should have locked down earlier, I am willing to bet, though cant prove it, had we locked down earlier and the spread was slower people would be crying Y2K all over again.

The government were relying heavily on their own set of experts, if they had to sit down and listen to the thousands of experts all with different opinions nothing would ever have happened. Imagine if Phil Cocu listened to the 'experts' on here on match day, he'd never ever make a team selection.

Maybe the governments experts got it wrong, I guess when we get to the other side there will be a detailed investigation into what went right and what went wrong, and then we learn from it for future.

Isn't hindsight used by most journalists when writing articles for a newspaper. The things that should be questioned by the reader of these articles, is how truthful it is and how reliable are the sources quoted in it.

If this report is true then yes, there needs to be questioned asked of those in charge now. Not after some future governmental inquiry, which takes ages to conduct and then comes to a whitewash conclusion.

[Tamworthram]

12 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Missed Cobra meetings? Read the criticisms of the article. He doesn't have to be at them all. One minute Boris is a demagogue, the next a dictator and then in this case, the criticism is aimed at him for allowing his cabinet members to have some authority and responsibility. It's the constant moving of the goalposts that is the issue for me. Criticism for criticism's sake. 

There would be many times more deaths if we didn't have the capacity and the government provided the capacity.But no, instead of being appreciative that the government did a good job with the Nightingale hospitals, etc, it's straight on to anything else that will stick. 

Taking into account population density and deaths per million of the population, we are not an outlier. We haven't faired poorly. But the likes of you worryingly don't think we have, you appear to want us to be. 

 

There will be a time for a full enquiry (I just hope it happens) further down the line. Things like when we went into and when we come out of lockdown are tricky because you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

There are four things on my list of questions I’d like to ask at the right time:

1) A full explanation regarding the procurement and distribution of PPE

2) Answers around the testing strategy - are we really going to hit 100,000 a day by the end of April?

3) Was the appropriate action taken, at the right time, with regard to nursing homes?

4) Why has it taken until mid April to create a vaccine task force?

I’m trying to be balanced and there are certainly some things that seem to be massive achievements (for example the Nightingale hospitals) but there questions that will need to answered in order to at least capture lessons learned for when it, or another virus, comes around again.

 

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, Uptherams said:

Missed Cobra meetings? Read the criticisms of the article. He doesn't have to be at them all. One minute Boris is a demagogue, the next a dictator and then in this case, the criticism is aimed at him for allowing his cabinet members to have some authority and responsibility. It's the constant moving of the goalposts that is the issue for me. Criticism for criticism's sake. 

There would be many times more deaths if we didn't have the capacity and the government provided the capacity.But no, instead of being appreciative that the government did a good job with the Nightingale hospitals, etc, it's straight on to anything else that will stick. 

Taking into account population density and deaths per million of the population, we are not an outlier. We haven't faired poorly. But the likes of you worryingly don't think we have, you appear to want us to be. 

 

Well if you're happy with our PM missing 5 consecutive Cobra meetings in the middle of a pandemic then bully for you old chap. You might then wish to consider that rather than any agenda, the reason I feel the way I do is because I'm setting the bar a tad higher than you clearly are!

By the same token, if you feel that current and projected mortality rates reflect positively on our handling of the crisis, feel free to continue with your sermonising, but I'd urge you caution as there are inevitably some on here like myself whose personal experiences will already will have them looking sideways at your need to accuse them of having some sort of agenda or to make the argument personal in any way, shape or form. Clearly it's gone unnoticed in your household, but everyone else has drawn a line under that kind of stuff for the time being, so perhaps you might wish to do likewise.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

5 hours ago, TramRam said:

Equally across the water they will have the same problems, When Verhofstadt questions the EUs response you know there's a problem.

 

Even less interested in playing the "na'na-na=na-naaa" thumbing the nose th the Europeans tbh. I just think this government needs to prioritise differently in light of events. 

After all that's happened and is still happening I do not expect any triumphal crap from the government whatever they choose to do.

And if boris blooming Johnson starts up again with his big ben bongs he will deserve a load of flak...

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

There will be a time for a full enquiry (I just hope it happens) further down the line. Things like when we went into and when we come out of lockdown are tricky because you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

There are four things on my list of questions I’d like to ask at the right time:

1) A full explanation regarding the procurement and distribution of PPE

2) Answers around the testing strategy - are we really going to hit 100,000 a day by the end of April?

3) Was the appropriate action taken, at the right time, with regard to nursing homes?

4) Why has it taken until mid April to create a vaccine task force?

I’m trying to be balanced and there are certainly some things that seem to be massive achievements (for example the Nightingale hospitals) but there questions that will need to answered in order to at least capture lessons learned for when it, or another virus, comes around again.

 

Totally. But some seem to want to pounce on anything and everything. Conclusions drawn will ultimately highlight systemic issues and those relating to the government, will be related to Governments over the past 30/40 years not a sole government. 

Three things that stick out to me would be our over reliance on non allies and the free market. Not having enough supplies on backlog but  also the time it takes to mobilise the private sector to provide as they are doing stuff like ventilators and PPE. With the government having an emergency fund to incentivise manufacturers. 

Seems to me some don't want to be critical of China. That's going to be the far bigger debate. 

[TramRam]

31 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Even less interested in playing the "na'na-na=na-naaa" thumbing the nose th the Europeans tbh.

Non of the above from me, Just this strange thinking by some that the EU has mastered all things and the UK has been drifting along without a lifebelt.

 

[Stive Pesley]

21 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

Experience tells me, you are wasting your time.  

he is - he knows exactly what the dog-whistle racism in that Facebook post is. He just wants me to waste my time explaining it again, so that he can tell me that I'm wrong.  It's no coincidence that he mentioned it once in the Corona thread, got no bites and then had to mention it again here. He lives for this crap. I don't know why I give him the satisfaction sometimes hahaha

None so blind and all that

 

 

 

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

he is - he knows exactly what the dog-whistle racism in that Facebook post is. He just wants me to waste my time explaining it again, so that he can tell me that I'm wrong.  It's no coincidence that he mentioned it once in the Corona thread, got no bites and then had to mention it again here. He lives for this crap. I don't know why I give him the satisfaction sometimes hahaha

None so blind and all that

 

 

 

You see racism everywhere fella. Sometimes it’s yes but a lot of times it’s no. People like you  just use it as a default position so it has now diluted real racism. Just a thought, it might be worth reviewing your own position as part of the problem. 

[TramRam]

2 hours ago, TramRam said:

Non of the above from me, Just this strange thinking by some that the EU has mastered all things and the UK has been drifting along without a lifebelt.

 

Just a reply to 1-4 concerning your ? at my post above, I realise that your a 100% remainer, And with us leaving it must have left your heart in the pit of your stomach, I understand believe me I do, I was in London for the Charlton game, I remember it was the Saturday when Parliament convened and there was the march for another referendum vote, We gave the game a swerve and stayed in The Pubs around Leicester Square, We got talking to some Lithuanian citizens and a couple from Buckinghamshire(very posh folk from Bucks)we had a great debate exstolling the +s and the -s of staying or leaving, Very civalised it was, Both camps scoring points for both sides, But there's a few questions the Buckingham couple couldn't answer and never new about it, I'll * the ones they were oblivious too, They said they were down because they believed it was the right thing to do for them, His Wife was draped in EU flags, By the end of our conversation we shook hands and he said...thankyou mate.

The reason I ask is, Instead of ? put your case forward, As I have below, I could add more but 8 is enough ?

*1. Daphne Caruana Galizia a Maltese journalist was assasinated by a car bomb as she was about to reveal the corruption of EU funds from the Maltese Polititians, Resignations followed and arrests were made.

*2. Slovak journalist Ján Kuciak and his Fiancee Martina Kusnirova who were murdered by a hit man again for the corruption of EU funds and links to serious crime familys, The government were brought down by these actions.

*3. Strasburgs EU Parliament, Why is it there(France has a treaty)Brussells moves everything lock stock and two smoking barrells every month for 4 days at a cost of 10s of millions of Euros each year, HGVs, Buses, Aeroplanes, Trains chucking out tons of carbon monoxide, Great for our planet aye.

*4. Immigration(Angela Merkel)inviting 100s of 1000s into Germany without checks, Leading to a powerfull AfD Political force.

*5. The Schengen Agreement, Prior to Covid-19 Austria, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Denmark, Netherlands had border checks against the EUs regulations, Now it looks like the most of the EU are doing the same as Covid-19 escalates.

*6. The EU commision unelected Civil Servents sent by their own Governments who suggest Laws for the circa(now)700 MEPs to discuss.

7. A proposed EU Army

8. The "looking after our own" due to Covid-19 has put a wedge between all 27 EU nations, Southern Countries looking to Northern Countries to help with this Huge cost, Ursula von der Leyen now(better late than never)apologising to Italy for the mistakes.

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

Just a thought, it might be worth reviewing your own position as part of the problem

Yeah - OK. Fair enough

Thought about it

If people stop calling out racism wherever they perceive it, does that lead to less racism? Or more racism?

Hmmm

Yeah I'm good as I am thanks

[Archied]

7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yeah - OK. Fair enough

Thought about it

If people stop calling out racism wherever they perceive it, does that lead to less racism? Or more racism?

Hmmm

Yeah I'm good as I am thanks

Really depends on the perception s being right Steve,, there’s a bit of the boy who cried wolf story that comes into play

[A Ram for All Seasons]

7 minutes ago, TramRam said:

*1. Daphne Caruana Galizia a Maltese journalist was assasinated by a car bomb as she was about to reveal the corruption of EU funds from the Maltese Polititians, Resignations followed and arrests were made.

*2. Slovak journalist Ján Kuciak and his Fiancee Martina Kusnirova who were murdered by a hit man again for the corruption of EU funds and links to serious crime familys, The government were brought down by these actions.

You could add the Italian Mafia to that list, and they have been around much longer than the EU. The EU isn't somehow immune to organized crime. It was the ties between the Slovak government and the Italian Mafia that Ján Kuciak was investigating. You can't blame the victim for allowing itelf to be defrauded.

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

You see racism everywhere fella. Sometimes it’s yes but a lot of times it’s no. People like you  just use it as a default position so it has now diluted real racism. Just a thought, it might be worth reviewing your own position as part of the problem. 

I have relatives who have never voted for anyone other than Labour. Anti Brexit, Trump, the lot, you know. All saying we must now seriously reduce immigration due to all of this. Guess they are racists now ??

[TramRam]

13 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

You could add the Italian Mafia to that list, and they have been around much longer than the EU. The EU isn't somehow immune to organized crime. It was the ties between the Slovak government and the Italian Mafia that Ján Kuciak was investigating. You can't blame the victim for allowing itelf to be defrauded.

I'm aware of the above, Were the Italian Mafia involved when it was Czechoslovakia, Or did they get involved when Slovakia joined the EU and it's €s.

There's Organised crime, And there's Governments Complicit with Organised crime.