Danny Baker fired for racist tweet about Royal baby

[MaltRam]

Well, this seems to have disappeared up it's own fundament.

We all know racism is a bad thing, and that something must be done.

Seems that as a society we're struggling to find the wisdom to identify whether or not we're looking at it, or what to do when we are.

Dancing on a pinhead about who's more absolutely-not-racist than whom, well, it's just not helping in the real world, is it?

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, jono said:

And if it had been a Brexiteer/ Britain First type person posting about an ethnic minority couple another walk of life, leaving hospital with a new baby what would your reaction have been ? 

It would depend on the wording and the image, of course. Perception is the key to all of this, it's what I read that matters and not necessarily what that Brexiteer / Britain First person writes. This is what allows moral conservatives to drive their agenda at all costs and is something that Danny Baker has learnt with more than a dollop of personal pain and seems to have taken on board in bucket loads given the contrition of his multiple apologies since.

[jono]

1 hour ago, Uptherams said:

Considering the fact I've been put in hospital before, for confronting racists, I literally don't care about pathetic virtue signalling on the internet. 

I’m sure you don’t, but that avoided the question didn’t it 

[jono]

22 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

It would depend on the wording and the image, of course. Perception is the key to all of this, it's what I read that matters and not necessarily what that Brexiteer / Britain First person writes. This is what allows moral conservatives to drive their agenda at all costs and is something that Danny Baker has learnt with more than a dollop of personal pain and seems to have taken on board in bucket loads given the contrition of his multiple apologies since.

Unless insults are full of bile and threat I tend to see them as just words and can’t get too excited. As you say “perception” is everything.

my gripe is the double standards both the right and the left. If one of their own says something .. it’s awww chill out, but if their opponent says it then we get hypocritical moral outrage. 

Baker is an oaf for sure, am I outraged ? .. nope not one bit 

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

If anyone is offended by my words on the Royal Family, please accept that the Royals will comfort themselves with their unlimited inherited wealth, huge areas of land, multiple homes and castles and staff. What is the PR spin on the huge numbers of homeless people in the UK vs the number of unoccupied rooms in royal residences?

You are not responsible for what other people find offensive.

[Mostyn6]

17 hours ago, Archied said:

Sorry but that’s a lot of twaddle about highlighting people’s own prejudices, it’s been very high profile how black football players are being abused by monkey chants and monkey gestures , it’s a disgusting insult that it still very much in the forefront of racist abuse 

where does football come into it? You're making the link here. The two are unrelated and that's the point. People are trying to make links and that is based on THEIR thinking.

[Anon]

It's so easy for racists to co-opt things because people won't grow damned spines. Monkeys, national flags, the ok hand gesture, milk. All racist. Part of me hopes some white identitarian imbecile mouths off about how much he loves Derby County, just to see how many of you would immediately renounce your support and run for the hills crying about being enablers all these years. I refuse to allow the worst elements in society to dictate the way language is perceived.

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, Needless said:

We all know racism is a bad thing, and that something must be done.

Seems that as a society we're struggling to find the wisdom to identify whether or not we're looking at it, or what to do when we are.

I see the police are now investigating the tweet ?

Danny Baker has been a media personality for a long time and as far as I'm aware this is the first time he has made a 'racist' comment.  He has either been hiding it extremely well or he was completely unaware of the connotations as (imo) his actions and comments show.

Given that he removed the tweet immediately and has apologised repeatedly, what do we as a society do?  Educate, forgive, chalk it up as a dumb comment and move on or bow to the outrage mob out to destroy his life/livelihood.

Furthermore why is easier to sack Danny Baker than it is to sack Lord Sugar for essentially the same thing?  And rather than getting outraged by a tweet that has been apologised for and deleted what about censoring Prince Philip for his repeated racist gaffs.

Context and perception are important as is an understanding of what racism is and whether it was implied or accidental.  Some will tell you that non of that is important and we're all racists or abusing our white privilege for even discussing it.  Others, myself included, would like a proper discussion on this (and many other subjects) to reach a rational consensus that doesn't result in society further tearing itself apart every single time an incident such as this occurs.

[Archied]

4 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Fair enough and I can see what you are saying. I don't agree though with Robinson and think he tries to whip up racist feeling. His pathetic deliberate jailing when his actions could have lead to the trials collapsing of child abuse gangs. I hope he spoke out against the vile individual who drove his car into Muslims at the mosque a couple of years back, the one who was inspired by Robinson.

Yep anybody who sets themselves in a position like Robinson and farrage have really have a big responsibility to be very clear in their words and actions to differentiate between being vocal in terms of what is racism and negative and what is honest critic of where we are struggling to be more able to blend cultures and co exist, time will tell as if they are closet racists the mask will slip

[Archied]

40 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I see the police are now investigating the tweet ?

Danny Baker has been a media personality for a long time and as far as I'm aware this is the first time he has made a 'racist' comment.  He has either been hiding it extremely well or he was completely unaware of the connotations as (imo) his actions and comments show.

Given that he removed the tweet immediately and has apologised repeatedly, what do we as a society do?  Educate, forgive, chalk it up as a dumb comment and move on or bow to the outrage mob out to destroy his life/livelihood.

Furthermore why is easier to sack Danny Baker than it is to sack Lord Sugar for essentially the same thing?  And rather than getting outraged by a tweet that has been apologised for and deleted what about censoring Prince Philip for his repeated racist gaffs.

Context and perception are important as is an understanding of what racism is and whether it was implied or accidental.  Some will tell you that non of that is important and we're all racists or abusing our white privilege for even discussing it.  Others, myself included, would like a proper discussion on this (and many other subjects) to reach a rational consensus that doesn't result in society further tearing itself apart every single time an incident such as this occurs.

Spot on , whilst I have criticised him big style for the tweet there has to be balance in how we respond to it

[Sith Happens]

59 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I see the police are now investigating the tweet ?

Danny Baker has been a media personality for a long time and as far as I'm aware this is the first time he has made a 'racist' comment.  He has either been hiding it extremely well or he was completely unaware of the connotations as (imo) his actions and comments show.

Given that he removed the tweet immediately and has apologised repeatedly, what do we as a society do?  Educate, forgive, chalk it up as a dumb comment and move on or bow to the outrage mob out to destroy his life/livelihood.

Furthermore why is easier to sack Danny Baker than it is to sack Lord Sugar for essentially the same thing?  And rather than getting outraged by a tweet that has been apologised for and deleted what about censoring Prince Philip for his repeated racist gaffs.

Context and perception are important as is an understanding of what racism is and whether it was implied or accidental.  Some will tell you that non of that is important and we're all racists or abusing our white privilege for even discussing it.  Others, myself included, would like a proper discussion on this (and many other subjects) to reach a rational consensus that doesn't result in society further tearing itself apart every single time an incident such as this occurs.

Alan Sugars remark was clearly intentional too. Didn't Geoffrey Boycott get let off too over a racist comment a couple of years back?

Deep down the BBC are probably using the racist angle as a cover for him being disrespectful to the royals. Wonder what they would have done if he had posted the same when William and Kate had one of their babies? Or even Posh and Becks?

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

I see the police are now investigating the tweet ?

Danny Baker has been a media personality for a long time and as far as I'm aware this is the first time he has made a 'racist' comment.  He has either been hiding it extremely well or he was completely unaware of the connotations as (imo) his actions and comments show.

Given that he removed the tweet immediately and has apologised repeatedly, what do we as a society do?  Educate, forgive, chalk it up as a dumb comment and move on or bow to the outrage mob out to destroy his life/livelihood.

Furthermore why is easier to sack Danny Baker than it is to sack Lord Sugar for essentially the same thing?  And rather than getting outraged by a tweet that has been apologised for and deleted what about censoring Prince Philip for his repeated racist gaffs.

Context and perception are important as is an understanding of what racism is and whether it was implied or accidental.  Some will tell you that non of that is important and we're all racists or abusing our white privilege for even discussing it.  Others, myself included, would like a proper discussion on this (and many other subjects) to reach a rational consensus that doesn't result in society further tearing itself apart every single time an incident such as this occurs.

It's because there are too many police and no crimes to investigate. They don't have anything else to do.

[Carl Sagan]

On 09/05/2019 at 23:38, Needless said:

By the way, the best thing on tv on now...This Week. Brilliant.

But only a handful of episodes left because the BBC schedulers refused to move it to a civilized time knowing they'd never find another such brilliant show that gets around 25% of the entire national post-midnight audience, running into the million on a Thursday night. Hence Neill and Portillo walked because life's too short to keep doing that.

To the matter in hand, I've read the thread and I think it's brilliant and this is why I was disappointed when the forum clamped down on these types of discussions. It's informative and insightful to read everyone's opinions. I'm surprised by much of it. I listened to Baker every Saturday and watched the telly show based on his autobiography. I'm a fan. In my mind and importantly in Baker's mind (I heard him say it in three different interviews) he had to be sacked. He just didn't seem to like the way it was done.

In science if something behaves as though a phenomenon is happening and there isn't any test that can show you it's not, then you treat it as though the phenomenon is happening. That's the heart of the Turing Test. If you can't tell the difference between a human behaving intelligently and a computer acting as if it's behaving intelligently, then the computer is behaving intelligently.

I've seen a lot of people say Baker's tweet wasn't rascist because "he's not rascist". No! If it looks like a rascist tweet then it's a rascist tweet, the same as Alan Sugar's that was mentioned a lot on in this thread. I come from a very ethnically mixed family and have been to football matches with my black and mixed race siblings with bananas thrown onto the pitch and monkey chants at black players and it is sickening to see some of that coming back. A depiction of a mixed race royal baby as a monkey by a national broadcaster is a rascist depiction and it's a sackable offence.

[AndyinLiverpool]

42 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

But only a handful of episodes left because the BBC schedulers refused to move it to a civilized time knowing they'd never find another such brilliant show that gets around 25% of the entire national post-midnight audience, running into the million on a Thursday night. Hence Neill and Portillo walked because life's too short to keep doing that.

To the matter in hand, I've read the thread and I think it's brilliant and this is why I was disappointed when the forum clamped down on these types of discussions. It's informative and insightful to read everyone's opinions. I'm surprised by much of it. I listened to Baker every Saturday and watched the telly show based on his autobiography. I'm a fan. In my mind and importantly in Baker's mind (I heard him say it in three different interviews) he had to be sacked. He just didn't seem to like the way it was done.

In science if something behaves as though a phenomenon is happening and there isn't any test that can show you it's not, then you treat it as though the phenomenon is happening. That's the heart of the Turing Test. If you can't tell the difference between a human behaving intelligently and a computer acting as if it's behaving intelligently, then the computer is behaving intelligently.

I've seen a lot of people say Baker's tweet wasn't rascist because "he's not rascist". No! If it looks like a rascist tweet then it's a rascist tweet, the same as Alan Sugar's that was mentioned a lot on in this thread. I come from a very ethnically mixed family and have been to football matches with my black and mixed race siblings with bananas thrown onto the pitch and monkey chants at black players and it is sickening to see some of that coming back. A depiction of a mixed race royal baby as a monkey by a national broadcaster is a rascist depiction and it's a sackable offence.

A perfectly reasonable exposition.

I wonder, though, how much the sacking really has to do with race and how much is to do with royalty, something the BBC is legendarily twitchy about.

[MaltRam]

2 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

But only a handful of episodes left because the BBC schedulers refused to move it to a civilized time knowing they'd never find another such brilliant show that gets around 25% of the entire national post-midnight audience, running into the million on a Thursday night. Hence Neill and Portillo walked because life's too short to keep doing that.

To the matter in hand, I've read the thread and I think it's brilliant and this is why I was disappointed when the forum clamped down on these types of discussions. It's informative and insightful to read everyone's opinions. I'm surprised by much of it. I listened to Baker every Saturday and watched the telly show based on his autobiography. I'm a fan. In my mind and importantly in Baker's mind (I heard him say it in three different interviews) he had to be sacked. He just didn't seem to like the way it was done.

In science if something behaves as though a phenomenon is happening and there isn't any test that can show you it's not, then you treat it as though the phenomenon is happening. That's the heart of the Turing Test. If you can't tell the difference between a human behaving intelligently and a computer acting as if it's behaving intelligently, then the computer is behaving intelligently.

I've seen a lot of people say Baker's tweet wasn't rascist because "he's not rascist". No! If it looks like a rascist tweet then it's a rascist tweet, the same as Alan Sugar's that was mentioned a lot on in this thread. I come from a very ethnically mixed family and have been to football matches with my black and mixed race siblings with bananas thrown onto the pitch and monkey chants at black players and it is sickening to see some of that coming back. A depiction of a mixed race royal baby as a monkey by a national broadcaster is a rascist depiction and it's a sackable offence.

Choked about This Week. Hadn't heard. The only politics show without party point scoring ruining any chance of actually discussing the issues.

Got to disagree with you, respectfully, on the racism point. Without intent, without prejudice, it can't be racist in any meaningful sense.

[Carl Sagan]

9 minutes ago, Needless said:

Choked about This Week. Hadn't heard. The only politics show without party point scoring ruining any chance of actually discussing the issues.

Got to disagree with you, respectfully, on the racism point. Without intent, without prejudice, it can't be racist in any meaningful sense.

One of the things about reading the thread I found interesting was how many people disagreed with me. When within my circles (old, young, male, female, black, white, Baker-fans, those who'd not heard of him) all held the same view. So it was eye-opening but it's really important to be able to disagree and always look beyond our bubbles. I recognize this sort of sacking is the inevitable result of years of outrage by mostly left-leaning social media, but it's seemed reasonable to me (and Baker) in this instance. Maybe I've been worn down?

But we can agree on This Week. It's the best show on telly and I'm gutted it's finishing after this run.

[maxjam]

3 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

I've seen a lot of people say Baker's tweet wasn't rascist because "he's not rascist". No! If it looks like a rascist tweet then it's a rascist tweet, the same as Alan Sugar's that was mentioned a lot on in this thread. I come from a very ethnically mixed family and have been to football matches with my black and mixed race siblings with bananas thrown onto the pitch and monkey chants at black players and it is sickening to see some of that coming back. A depiction of a mixed race royal baby as a monkey by a national broadcaster is a rascist depiction and it's a sackable offence.

I appreciate your point of view but if I accidentally set fire to my house that doesn't make the crime arson or me an arsonist.

As far as I am aware Danny Baker has never made any racist comments before and immediately took down the tweet and apologised when the connotations were made clear to him.  Unless evidence to the contrary tuns up I'm inclined to believe it was posted innocently.

Back in the day, one of my teachers had a habit of saying 'there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers' and I think something along similar lines applies here.  Whilst at first glance the tweet might appear to be racist if there was genuinely no intent then its wrong to call it so, regardless of public opinion.

Which leads me onto the increasingly outraged mob.  Everything is so completely binary these days, whether implied or otherwise.  Nuance is dead and comments no matter how old are being used to 'hang' people (see the Choudhury fined 5k thread in the Football Forum for example)

.  Political correctness and social sensitivity is moving at an ever increasing pace these days and the punishment for the slightest transgression is extreme.  Its not healthy and its causing deep divisions in society.  Its getting to the point where we can't ask (stupid) questions or make innocent comments for fear of causing offence.)

[Stive Pesley]

18 hours ago, maxjam said:

Political correctness and social sensitivity is moving at an ever increasing pace these days and the punishment for the slightest transgression is extreme.  Its not healthy and its causing deep divisions in society.  Its getting to the point where we can't ask (stupid) questions or make innocent comments for fear of causing offence.)

This is the grand problem with social media - it allows people to act and speak in a way that they wouldn't dare to in a public face-to-face situation, but in doing so - you are unable to control the consequences.

Taking the edge-lord types like Sargon/Dankula (who deliberately seek to cause controversy to their own ends) out of the equation, and working on the assumption that generally people are actually alright in "real life" - you're right. How do you control the context of what you say? If someone takes offence then that's their freedom - the same as it was your freedom to say it in the first place. We need to get to a place where the conversation about that remains civil - as if we were face-to-face.

Where we disagree is that you think it's political correctness and social sensitivity that is to blame - but I don't believe that. After all - railing 'against political correctness is just another example of trying to control how people think, and what they are/aren't allowed to say. Different side of the same coin

I think the problem is a refusal of both sides to listen to each other. If they did that they'd probably realise that they have a common aim. We all deserve the right to have our views respected (unless we go out of our way to deliberately be a controversial attention-seeking twonk)

It's still early days and I hope we evolve our skills at using social media more responsibly - we should just turn it off if we can't do that

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

I think the problem is a refusal of both sides to listen to each other. If they did that they'd probably realise that they have a common aim. We all deserve the right to have our views respected (unless we go out of our way to deliberately be a controversial attention-seeking twonk)

It's still early days and I hope we evolve our skills at using social media more responsibly - we should just turn it off if we can't do that

Absolutely.

However social media is driving a very binary view of the world, say something wrong once and thats it, you're finished regardless.  Social media outrage, censorship and reactions to 'mistakes' such as the Danny Baker tweet only serve to reinforce the outrage mobs belief that they are 100% right 100% of the time - which in turn drives political correctness and social sensitivity to even greater heights.

We all need to take a step back and be free to discuss issues without fear of retribution.  Only then might we reach a consensus and move forwards.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

However social media is driving a very binary view of the world, say something wrong once and thats it, you're finished regardless.  Social media outrage, censorship and reactions to 'mistakes' such as the Danny Baker tweet only serve to reinforce the outrage mobs belief that they are 100% right 100% of the time - which in turn drives political correctness and social sensitivity to even greater heights.

Yes it does, but you can't mention that and not point out that it is also driving the edge-lords and genuinely racist to even greater heights too. The two extremes do not exist in vacuums. They exacerbate each other - hence I am wary of people who imply only one of them is the problem

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

We all need to take a step back and be free to discuss issues without fear of retribution. 

It's actually more than that. Saying "without  fear of retribution" suggests some sort of impunity. In some ways it makes more sense to say  we should be able to discuss issues WITH the consideration of potential retribution. If both sides held a truce and agreed to think a bit more about what they are posting it would be a good start.

The Danny Baker thing being a great example - one guy who didn't stop to think what he was posting and internet hell breaks loose. It has to stop. Neither side will "win"