Out of the door - Predictions

[TibshelfRam]

46 minutes ago, McRainy said:

I agree with you.

I think it's a sign of how twisted the general perspective has become that any suggestion that financial gain isn't the be all and end all is met with outrage. 

Far from the truth. If you could identify where I described financial gain as the 'be all and end all', I'd be most grateful.

Obviously, as I didn't say that, I'll save both of us the time and continue the conversation accordingly.

It certainly isn't the be all and end all. And I wouldn't act in outrage at the suggestion that financial gain wasn't the be all and end all. But, allow me to flip your point on its head for a second:

If people sharing my view are not allowed to act with outrage at your suggestion that said players should have more about them than just money, then conversely, you should not act in outrage at people like me suggesting that they should be allowed to take finance into account. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical.

@Seaside Ram's original comment suggested that players who choose to remain on the same (better than anywhere else) financial terms was a disgrace and those players should not be allowed to earn another penny from the game. In that instance, yeah, I think that that is outrageous, actually. To counter that is not to suggest that other factors that financial gain are irrelevant, but actually, to put it into context that footballers are human beings and employees the same as any of us and that financial gain should be viewed in just the same way as wanting to advance your career - as a legitimate decision, not something for keyboard warriors to mouth off about.

Your comments that Johnson, Butterfield and co are somehow jeopardizing their chances of winning silverware that they could 'tell their grandchildren about' is largely irrelevant. 'Here, grandson, let me tell you about the time I left 6th place Derby County because I was being paid too much and joined Reading'---'Oh, do tell me more, Grandad, what did you win?'---'Nothing, but I took a £20K a week pay cut'. These aren't players who are turning down the chance to win silverware to stop on more money here at Derby. The only offers they have open to them are smaller clubs, lower down the table and on less money. I for one, couldn't wait to tell my grandchildren about that.

Footballers should not be vilified or painted as evil if they make the legitimate and understandable reason to honour their contract and earn more money. It is just as much a legitimate reason as it would be to want to leave to 'further your own career'. And, without knowing either Butterfield or Johnson or anybody else, they probably have sufficient self respect and don't feel the need to justify it to the likes of us on here. Staying where you are, on more money, is perfectly understandable for footballers or for anyone else. I stand by my claim that very few of us would do the same in our professions, so football shouldn't be judged any differently.

I'd make the point that it is very easy to make this moral argument and suggest that said players should take a pay cut whilst claiming 'it isn't all about money' when it isn't you involved. I would have no problem making said moral argument if it meant somebody else losing money. I'd probably get off my high horse if it involved me losing money. And I make no apology for being a mercenary.

Finally, as for some bizarre reason one of you decided to bring the yet to be born grandchildren of these players into discussion, I have no problem in applauding Butterfield and Johnson for making the perfectly understandable decision to continue to earn more money instead of taking a pay cut. Footballers are handsomely paid but they have a short lived career. And for the sake of their children and grandchildren, if somebody is willing to pay them a lot of money, it is only fair that they accept that offer instead of taking less somewhere else.

 

[Norman]

One day Bradley Johnson will be having a kick about with his Grandson, balls flying over the fence etc, and will turn to him and say.

'Do you know, Billy, how I made us all rich? I played professional football for Derby City'

Young Billy will laugh in his face. Not because he called us Derby City, but the fact Grandad made it as a professional footballer.

[cannable]

People are a bit harsh on BJ, only five months ago he was running the show at Old Trafford 

[TibshelfRam]

3 minutes ago, cannable said:

People are a bit harsh on BJ, only five months ago he was running the show at Old Trafford 

Forget the arguments about him leaving and money etc and I actually agree with you.

For me, he's me criminally misused since he arrived, aside from probably the first 6 months. And in that first 6 months he looked one of our better players.

I know a few Norwich fans who were gutted when he joined us. The season before he tore up the Championship for them and was easily their best player - playing almost in the role Bryson used to play for us. Running from deep, getting into the box and scoring goals. In something of a free role. That's what he was brought here to do by Clement and when he first came he looked great.

Since then, because of injuries to Thorne and then playing under Rowett in a system that didn't suit that style, he has been used a defensive midfielder. But he isn't that player. I don't think he's defensively disciplined enough, nor do I think he has the passing range to play as a deep lying playmaker.

He's been miused and played out of position. And yet, we're surprised when he's crap. He hasn't been value for money, no, but that's because the reason why we paid that money for him, is not how we've used him.

[Rample]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

One day Bradley Johnson will be having a kick about with his Grandson, balls flying over the fence etc, and will turn to him and say.

'Do you know, Billy, how I made us all rich? I played professional football for Derby City'

Young Billy will laugh in his face. Not because he called us Derby City, but the fact Grandad made it as a professional footballer.

Nah, little Billy will turn around and say, "you mean County, the Derby County who have just won the league for the 4th season running?" ask his cyber-net goggles to search for Bradley Johnson + Derby "All I can find are articles saying you were crap apart from 2 or 3 games, and were banished from the city after biting someone, before joining Nottingham Forest."

[Seaside Ram]

1 hour ago, KentRam said:

Far from the truth. If you could identify where I described financial gain as the 'be all and end all', I'd be most grateful.

Obviously, as I didn't say that, I'll save both of us the time and continue the conversation accordingly.

It certainly isn't the be all and end all. And I wouldn't act in outrage at the suggestion that financial gain wasn't the be all and end all. But, allow me to flip your point on its head for a second:

If people sharing my view are not allowed to act with outrage at your suggestion that said players should have more about them than just money, then conversely, you should not act in outrage at people like me suggesting that they should be allowed to take finance into account. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical.

@Seaside Ram's original comment suggested that players who choose to remain on the same (better than anywhere else) financial terms was a disgrace and those players should not be allowed to earn another penny from the game. In that instance, yeah, I think that that is outrageous, actually. To counter that is not to suggest that other factors that financial gain are irrelevant, but actually, to put it into context that footballers are human beings and employees the same as any of us and that financial gain should be viewed in just the same way as wanting to advance your career - as a legitimate decision, not something for keyboard warriors to mouth off about.

Your comments that Johnson, Butterfield and co are somehow jeopardizing their chances of winning silverware that they could 'tell their grandchildren about' is largely irrelevant. 'Here, grandson, let me tell you about the time I left 6th place Derby County because I was being paid too much and joined Reading'---'Oh, do tell me more, Grandad, what did you win?'---'Nothing, but I took a £20K a week pay cut'. These aren't players who are turning down the chance to win silverware to stop on more money here at Derby. The only offers they have open to them are smaller clubs, lower down the table and on less money. I for one, couldn't wait to tell my grandchildren about that.

Footballers should not be vilified or painted as evil if they make the legitimate and understandable reason to honour their contract and earn more money. It is just as much a legitimate reason as it would be to want to leave to 'further your own career'. And, without knowing either Butterfield or Johnson or anybody else, they probably have sufficient self respect and don't feel the need to justify it to the likes of us on here. Staying where you are, on more money, is perfectly understandable for footballers or for anyone else. I stand by my claim that very few of us would do the same in our professions, so football shouldn't be judged any differently.

I'd make the point that it is very easy to make this moral argument and suggest that said players should take a pay cut whilst claiming 'it isn't all about money' when it isn't you involved. I would have no problem making said moral argument if it meant somebody else losing money. I'd probably get off my high horse if it involved me losing money. And I make no apology for being a mercenary.

Finally, as for some bizarre reason one of you decided to bring the yet to be born grandchildren of these players into discussion, I have no problem in applauding Butterfield and Johnson for making the perfectly understandable decision to continue to earn more money instead of taking a pay cut. Footballers are handsomely paid but they have a short lived career. And for the sake of their children and grandchildren, if somebody is willing to pay them a lot of money, it is only fair that they accept that offer instead of taking less somewhere else.

%

[Seaside Ram]

1 hour ago, KentRam said:

Far from the truth. If you could identify where I described financial gain as the 'be all and end all', I'd be most grateful.

Obviously, as I didn't say that, I'll save both of us the time and continue the conversation accordingly.

It certainly isn't the be all and end all. And I wouldn't act in outrage at the suggestion that financial gain wasn't the be all and end all. But, allow me to flip your point on its head for a second:

If people sharing my view are not allowed to act with outrage at your suggestion that said players should have more about them than just money, then conversely, you should not act in outrage at people like me suggesting that they should be allowed to take finance into account. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical.

@Seaside Ram's original comment suggested that players who choose to remain on the same (better than anywhere else) financial terms was a disgrace and those players should not be allowed to earn another penny from the game. In that instance, yeah, I think that that is outrageous, actually. To counter that is not to suggest that other factors that financial gain are irrelevant, but actually, to put it into context that footballers are human beings and employees the same as any of us and that financial gain should be viewed in just the same way as wanting to advance your career - as a legitimate decision, not something for keyboard warriors to mouth off about.

Your comments that Johnson, Butterfield and co are somehow jeopardizing their chances of winning silverware that they could 'tell their grandchildren about' is largely irrelevant. 'Here, grandson, let me tell you about the time I left 6th place Derby County because I was being paid too much and joined Reading'---'Oh, do tell me more, Grandad, what did you win?'---'Nothing, but I took a £20K a week pay cut'. These aren't players who are turning down the chance to win silverware to stop on more money here at Derby. The only offers they have open to them are smaller clubs, lower down the table and on less money. I for one, couldn't wait to tell my grandchildren about that.

Footballers should not be vilified or painted as evil if they make the legitimate and understandable reason to honour their contract and earn more money. It is just as much a legitimate reason as it would be to want to leave to 'further your own career'. And, without knowing either Butterfield or Johnson or anybody else, they probably have sufficient self respect and don't feel the need to justify it to the likes of us on here. Staying where you are, on more money, is perfectly understandable for footballers or for anyone else. I stand by my claim that very few of us would do the same in our professions, so football shouldn't be judged any differently.

I'd make the point that it is very easy to make this moral argument and suggest that said players should take a pay cut whilst claiming 'it isn't all about money' when it isn't you involved. I would have no problem making said moral argument if it meant somebody else losing money. I'd probably get off my high horse if it involved me losing money. And I make no apology for being a mercenary.

Finally, as for some bizarre reason one of you decided to bring the yet to be born grandchildren of these players into discussion, I have no problem in applauding Butterfield and Johnson for making the perfectly understandable decision to continue to earn more money instead of taking a pay cut. Footballers are handsomely paid but they have a short lived career. And for the sake of their children and grandchildren, if somebody is willing to pay them a lot of money, it is only fair that they accept that offer instead of taking less somewhere else.

 

I have only just skimmed through this but I recall saying I hoped they wouldn't earn another penny not shouldn't be allowed . Where did I say about winning trophies ? I recall saying achieving things . But hey don't let facts get in the way of your big speeches !!!! ?

[The Arch Deacon]

1 hour ago, KentRam said:

Far from the truth. If you could identify where I described financial gain as the 'be all and end all', I'd be most grateful.

Obviously, as I didn't say that, I'll save both of us the time and continue the conversation accordingly.

It certainly isn't the be all and end all. And I wouldn't act in outrage at the suggestion that financial gain wasn't the be all and end all. But, allow me to flip your point on its head for a second:

If people sharing my view are not allowed to act with outrage at your suggestion that said players should have more about them than just money, then conversely, you should not act in outrage at people like me suggesting that they should be allowed to take finance into account. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical.

@Seaside Ram's original comment suggested that players who choose to remain on the same (better than anywhere else) financial terms was a disgrace and those players should not be allowed to earn another penny from the game. In that instance, yeah, I think that that is outrageous, actually. To counter that is not to suggest that other factors that financial gain are irrelevant, but actually, to put it into context that footballers are human beings and employees the same as any of us and that financial gain should be viewed in just the same way as wanting to advance your career - as a legitimate decision, not something for keyboard warriors to mouth off about.

Your comments that Johnson, Butterfield and co are somehow jeopardizing their chances of winning silverware that they could 'tell their grandchildren about' is largely irrelevant. 'Here, grandson, let me tell you about the time I left 6th place Derby County because I was being paid too much and joined Reading'---'Oh, do tell me more, Grandad, what did you win?'---'Nothing, but I took a £20K a week pay cut'. These aren't players who are turning down the chance to win silverware to stop on more money here at Derby. The only offers they have open to them are smaller clubs, lower down the table and on less money. I for one, couldn't wait to tell my grandchildren about that.

Footballers should not be vilified or painted as evil if they make the legitimate and understandable reason to honour their contract and earn more money. It is just as much a legitimate reason as it would be to want to leave to 'further your own career'. And, without knowing either Butterfield or Johnson or anybody else, they probably have sufficient self respect and don't feel the need to justify it to the likes of us on here. Staying where you are, on more money, is perfectly understandable for footballers or for anyone else. I stand by my claim that very few of us would do the same in our professions, so football shouldn't be judged any differently.

I'd make the point that it is very easy to make this moral argument and suggest that said players should take a pay cut whilst claiming 'it isn't all about money' when it isn't you involved. I would have no problem making said moral argument if it meant somebody else losing money. I'd probably get off my high horse if it involved me losing money. And I make no apology for being a mercenary.

Finally, as for some bizarre reason one of you decided to bring the yet to be born grandchildren of these players into discussion, I have no problem in applauding Butterfield and Johnson for making the perfectly understandable decision to continue to earn more money instead of taking a pay cut. Footballers are handsomely paid but they have a short lived career. And for the sake of their children and grandchildren, if somebody is willing to pay them a lot of money, it is only fair that they accept that offer instead of taking less somewhere else.

 

This!!!

[The Arch Deacon]

1 hour ago, KentRam said:

Forget the arguments about him leaving and money etc and I actually agree with you.

For me, he's me criminally misused since he arrived, aside from probably the first 6 months. And in that first 6 months he looked one of our better players.

I know a few Norwich fans who were gutted when he joined us. The season before he tore up the Championship for them and was easily their best player - playing almost in the role Bryson used to play for us. Running from deep, getting into the box and scoring goals. In something of a free role. That's what he was brought here to do by Clement and when he first came he looked great.

Since then, because of injuries to Thorne and then playing under Rowett in a system that didn't suit that style, he has been used a defensive midfielder. But he isn't that player. I don't think he's defensively disciplined enough, nor do I think he has the passing range to play as a deep lying playmaker.

He's been miused and played out of position. And yet, we're surprised when he's crap. He hasn't been value for money, no, but that's because the reason why we paid that money for him, is not how we've used him.

Ditto Butterfield

[Seaside Ram]

4 minutes ago, The Arch Deacon said:

This!!!

Agreed, what a load of drivel ?

[Sweetness34]

3 hours ago, SouthStandDan said:

It's the players decision. Unless the club cancels their contracts (at a huge cost) then I don't see any of the big earners leaving. Anya and Butterfield are fairly average Championship players on massive contracts. They're not silly, where else can they go earning the salary given to them by Derby County? They might as well run the contracts down, earn as much money as they can, then pack their bags and find another club. Unless they're desperate to play football, the "bomb squad" will be quite happy to stay and train here.

And I reckon most people would do the same.

I like to think if I was in my twenties I'd actually look for a move. Fair enough there'd be a pay cut but it's not like someone in a normal job moving on and earning less, you'd be moving on from earning a shed load of cash to a smaller shed load of cash

However, if I was in my mid 30s (as I am) and had had a decent career so far I'd probably be happy to get paid hadsomely to train for the remainder of this season and look to move on then for my last club.

[rynny]

4 hours ago, McRainy said:

They've let the desire for money ruin their careers as footballers.

It's nothing to do with loyalty to Derby County, it's about having the self respect to make the best of yourself.

 

3 hours ago, Seaside Ram said:

Spot on, no pride or self respect, tell the grandchildren not who you played for or what you achieved but how much money you have !! 

 

3 hours ago, McRainy said:

I agree with you.

I think it's a sign of how twisted the general perspective has become that any suggestion that financial gain isn't the be all and end all is met with outrage. 

What teams have they turned down?

[Seaside Ram]

4 hours ago, KentRam said:

those players should not be allowed to earn another penny from the game.

Still searching for where I said this ?

Or maybe ' I hope they don't' is the same as 'should not be allowed' ? 

I'll pop the kettle on. 

 

[McRainy]

8 hours ago, KentRam said:

Your comments that Johnson, Butterfield and co are somehow jeopardizing their chances of winning silverware that they could 'tell their grandchildren about' is largely irrelevant. '

I pick this quote at random merely to point out that I didn't make any such comment, and that you're simply waffling on to yourself. 

I would expect a professional footballer in their twenties to want to actually play the game to the highest level of which they are capable, for their own satisfaction, rather than warming a bench or wasting their time and talent in the under 23s. 

If they don't want to, and would rather take the money, that's obviously their choice, but it's not one I can relate to. And yes, I have given up lucrative work myself for things which paid less but were more satisfying. 

My point stands, that if your priority as a footballer isn't to be playing first team football, at whatever level you can find it, then there's something lacking in your drive, motivation and commitment.

They don't have many years to pursue their chosen career, and it seems an utter waste to spend a good portion of that time sitting out a contract. 

[McRainy]

6 hours ago, rynny said:

What teams have they turned down?

Are you suggesting that players like Butterfield and Anya couldn't find clubs willing to utilise them?

[Gisby]

18 minutes ago, McRainy said:

I pick this quote at random merely to point out that I didn't make any such comment, and that you're simply waffling on to yourself. 

I would expect a professional footballer in their twenties to want to actually play the game to the highest level of which they are capable, for their own satisfaction, rather than warming a bench or wasting their time and talent in the under 23s. 

If they don't want to, and would rather take the money, that's obviously their choice, but it's not one I can relate to. And yes, I have given up lucrative work myself for things which paid less but were more satisfying. 

 My point stands, that if your priority as a footballer isn't to be playing first team football, at whatever level you can find it, then there's something lacking in your drive, motivation and commitment.

They don't have many years to pursue their chosen career, and it seems an utter waste to spend a good portion of that time sitting out a contract. 

Completely agree. As a young kid growing up I’d have given anything to become a professional footballer. To see these privelidged few abusing their profession leaves me lost for words and is an insult to those not so fortunate who aspired to be where they are. I hear those who will say not their fault they were offered too long a contract on stupid money etc and is their prerogative to carry on taking the money but come on are they professional sportsmen or mercenaries!!!

[McRainy]

2 minutes ago, Gisby said:

As a young kid growing up I’d have given anything to become a professional footballer

That's another angle to it, the example it sets to aspiring young players. 

[rynny]

27 minutes ago, McRainy said:

Are you suggesting that players like Butterfield and Anya couldn't find clubs willing to utilise them?

I'm suggesting that we don't know the full story. I have no idea if they have had offers or not, hence the question what teams have they turned down. I would rather wait and see if they had before going down the character assassination route, as with Butterfield, who would be at Hull now if the paperwork for his loan had been completed before the deadline in the summer. That would suggest he does want to play football. 

Also worth pointing out that the players would still earn the same wages if they went on loan. The loaning clubs will cover whatever we are asking for, how do we know that we aren't asking for more than what teams want to pay? 

[McRainy]

19 minutes ago, rynny said:

The loaning clubs will cover whatever we are asking for, how do we know that we aren't asking for more than what teams want to pay? 

Agreed under those circumstances that wouldn't be the player's responsibility. 

I still find it difficult to believe that, given the timescales involved, the player's agents or whoever couldn't have found them first team football somewhere. Then it comes back to the players refusing a drop in salary. No, I don't know that is what has happened, but it seems to me that too long has passed for it to simply be down to a lack of options. 

It isn't an 'assassination' of someone's character to question their actions and motives. Given the lack of information, people are bound to speculate, particularly when it would be better for Derby if certain players moved on. 

[The Arch Deacon]

Why don’t we all wait for the window to close before berating our players for a lack of ambition or self pride. Butterfield will go for the good of himself, Derby and the club he joins in this window. I hope he receives better treatment than he’s had here. I’m sure there’ll be a flood of apologies on here from the usual critics!!! As for Anya and BJ.......we’ll see.