Ghost of Clough Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Lambchop said: This is fine in principle, and I agree, but this is football, and where do you draw the line. For me, cheating on the pitch during the game is far worse; diving, shirt pulling, time wasting, deliberate fouls. Teams do whatever they can to get an advantage, including Derby. That's the whole point of my objection, there is no moral high ground, and we look ridiculous trying to claim it. There should be 50 page threads on here every week about our own players cheating otherwise. It's all about context and a proportionate response. And it's down to the referee to punish them if he spots it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 29 minutes ago, Lambchop said: That should tell you all you need to know really; and you're not just disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Guardiola, Pochettino, and many others at the top of the game who actually know what they're talking about. And you're disagreeing with many more at the top of the game who think what Leeds did was unacceptable and merits a very significant punishment. It's about opinions, but it's disingenuous to suggest the football world doesn't think it's a big deal. Just looking at our neighbours down the Brian Clough Way, Stan Collymore, Stuart Pearce and Jermaine Jenas have all said Leeds must have points deducted. With the first two saying it must be replayed or simply awarded to Derby. Myriad others saying the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 40 minutes ago, Lambchop said: It's understandable that fans will be heavily biased in favour of what they see as their own club's interest, But not yourself I assume, why is that exactly? How are you capable of removing yourself from the club you support and look at this from an objective point of view. I would argue you are not viewing this from an objective point of view yourself, not once have you been capable of giving Lampard the benefit of the doubt, only Bielsa. Quote Some of the comments on here about Bielsa are disgusting, just the pitchfork mentality at its worst. Regardless of club rivalries and who he currently works for, he's one of the most influential and respected managers in the world. Everyone who knows anything about him says he's a man of deep integrity. Likewise some of the comments on here about Lampard are disgusting. As for Bielsa's "integrity", so deep his club had to remind him. "Following comments made by Marcelo Bielsa yesterday the club will look to work with our head coach and his staff to remind them of the integrity and honesty which are the foundations that Leeds United is built on." Quote The only reason everyone's so up in arms is because it's Leeds, because they're top of the league, and because they've blown us off the park twice. This could be Ipswich Town or Grimsby Town, I can tell you now for an absolute fact my reaction would be exactly the same, even if we had beat them 4-0 twice. Again, another conclusion you have jumped to with nothing to back this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, maxjam said: Just because something may or may not have happened before doesn't make it right and with such a clear cut case as this, along with Bielsa's admission it took place its a good time to tighten up rules going forwards. That's the other issue, though, the EFL does next to nothing to ensure that the game is played in a fair way on the pitch. Why don't they tackle diving, shirt pulling or time wasting? That would do far more to improve the quality of the game. Or, off the pitch, all the financial irregularities which take place? If they are heavy handed in this case, will it be because stopping someone looking through a fence is the most important way to improve the game, or will it just be a token response to something that has achieved a high media profile because of the personalities involved? Call me cynical, but as I say, if it was the manager of Port Vale, whoever he is, feeling upset about this, no one would be talking in such lofty terms about the integrity of football. I dislike cheating, but I suppose I dislike hypocrisy even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, David said: But not yourself I assume, why is that exactly? How are you capable of removing yourself from the club you support and view this from an objective point of view. I don't subscribe to the herd mentality, sorry. I'm not patriotic either; I expect it's a moral failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Lambchop said: That's the other issue, though, the EFL does next to nothing to ensure that the game is played in a fair way on the pitch. Why don't they tackle diving, shirt pulling or time wasting? That would do far more to improve the quality of the game. Or, off the pitch, all the financial irregularities which take place? Refs have the tools to deal with this now, maybe VAR will help sort some of it out like they did with shirt pulling/blocking in the world cup. 11 minutes ago, Lambchop said: If they are heavy handed in this case, will it be because stopping someone looking through a fence is the most important way to improve the game, or will it just be a token response to something that has achieved a high media profile because of the personalities involved? I think it will be because the cheating is so blatant in this case, not the fact that its the most important way to improve the game. The integrity of the game demands that some action should be taken - I personally think slap on the wrist/small fine and the rules tightened up to prevent this in the future. 11 minutes ago, Lambchop said: Call me cynical, but as I say, if it was the manager of Port Vale, whoever he is, feeling upset about this, no one would be talking in such lofty terms about the integrity of football. I dislike cheating, but I suppose I dislike hypocrisy even more. Unfortunately thats life ? No one would care if the Port Vale manager moaned about it. Some people laugh and mock cos it little Derby, if it was Guardiola or Klopp it would be 24/7 Sky News major story for the next 6 months... I think that everyone dislikes cheating but just because there maybe elements of hypocrisy doesn't mean that this incident shouldn't be dealt with and rules put in place moving forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 47 minutes ago, Lambchop said: That should tell you all you need to know really; and you're not just disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Guardiola, Pochettino, and many others at the top of the game who actually know what they're talking about. It's understandable that fans will be heavily biased in favour of what they see as their own club's interest, but that doesn't make them right. If you read a wider body of opinion than this forum, you get a very different impression. Some of the comments on here about Bielsa are disgusting, just the pitchfork mentality at its worst. Regardless of club rivalries and who he currently works for, he's one of the most influential and respected managers in the world. Everyone who knows anything about him says he's a man of deep integrity. Gathering as much information as you can about your rivals is so commonplace as to be unworthy of comment. It's standard practice. Fergie flew helicopters, Bill Shankly's house overlooked Everton training ground, someone looked through the fence at Moor Farm, so what. The only reason everyone's so up in arms is because it's Leeds, because they're top of the league, and because they've blown us off the park twice. If it was Port Vale or Gillingham, no one would give a poo, but because it's Leeds, and Lampard's upset, we're giving it the full lynch mob treatment. It's totally pathetic. I just hope that, when the dust eventually settles, Derby don't find we've acquired a victim tag status a la Liverpool, because that's how we're behaving. Come on, this is getting ridiculous. A man of deep integrity does not instigate a spying mission against the opposition during a private training session. A man of "deep integrity" would ask permission to send someone to watch which would obviously be turned down and if that's sounds crazy then congratulations you have been educated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, David said: But not yourself I assume, why is that exactly? How are you capable of removing yourself from the club you support and view this from an objective point of view. No, actually David, I'm not having that. What right have you got to question the manner of my support? As I've said, I don't want us to look ridiculous, and I fear that's what's happening, using our manager's celebrity in a case of special pleading. You may disagree, but you are out of order personalising it and implying some kind of disloyalty because I happen to agree with Guardiola rather than Stuart ducking Pearce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, maxjam said: Refs have the tools to deal with this now, maybe VAR will help sort some of it out like they did with shirt pulling/blocking in the world cup. I think it will be because the cheating is so blatant in this case, not the fact that its the most important way to improve the game. The integrity of the game demands that some action should be taken - I personally think slap on the wrist/small fine and the rules tightened up to prevent this in the future. Unfortunately thats life ? No one would care if the Port Vale manager moaned about it. Some people laugh and mock cos it little Derby, if it was Guardiola or Klopp it would be 24/7 Sky News major story for the next 6 months... I think that everyone dislikes cheating but just because there maybe elements of hypocrisy doesn't mean that this incident shouldn't be dealt with and rules put in place moving forwards. Fair comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said: Come on, this is getting ridiculous. A man of deep integrity does not instigate a spying mission against the opposition during a private training session. A man of "deep integrity" would ask permission to send someone to watch which would obviously be turned down and if that's sounds crazy then congratulations you have been educated! Nevertheless, he publishes his own teamsheets in advance, and gives lectures on his own tactics. Maybe the way forward is more openness rather than better fences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lambchop said: I don't subscribe to the herd mentality, sorry. I'm not patriotic either; I expect it's a moral failing. But feel the need to name drop managers such as Guardiola, Poch, Fergie to validate your objective opinions? In fact you keep reminding us that outside of our little biased bubble the whole football world shares your views, so in fact you are the one who could be accused of subscribing to herd mentality, not us who are the small minority over here attempting to hold on to some integrity. Earlier in the topic you even tried to use Warnock until I showed a direct quote from him which said otherwise. I've done a little digging and could not find confirmation that Ferguson was behind the helicopter either, this was the Mirror reporting it back in 2009, the same paper which made claims that Mel was flying drones over training. I'm also still yet to find this confirmation of Mourinho in the laundry basket, another unconfirmed rumour, or find anything more on AVB actually spying on training sessions. I'm looking for direct quotes because I'm not going to just pick up a tabloid and take it as fact. For someone that is hot on legalities usually, I'm surprised by your willingness to publicly make accusations without evidence to back your comments up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, Lambchop said: No, actually David, I'm not having that. What right have you got to question the manner of my support? As I've said, I don't want us to look ridiculous, and I fear that's what's happening, using our manager's celebrity in a case of special pleading. You may disagree, but you are out of order personalising it and implying some kind of disloyalty because I happen to agree with Guardiola rather than Stuart ducking Pearce. What right have you got to dismiss our views as biased herd mentality and claiming that had this been another club other than Leeds we would not have been bothered, painting us as sore losers. If you don't like people questioning your views, perhaps you should stop and think before questioning others, this works both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Lambchop said: Nevertheless, he publishes his own teamsheets in advance, and gives lectures on his own tactics. Maybe the way forward is more openness rather than better fences. What Mr Bielsa does is up to him. In a competitive sport it should be each managers prerogative whether they want their training and tactics to be public or private. Why do you think Bielsa didn't approach DCFC to ask if he could watch the training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, David said: But feel the need to name drop managers such as Guardiola, Poch, Fergie to validate your objective opinions? In fact you keep reminding us that outside of our little biased bubble the whole football world shares your views, so in fact you are the one who could be accused of subscribing to herd mentality, not us who are the small minority over here attempting to hold on to some integrity. Earlier in the topic you even tried to use Warnock until I showed a direct quote from him which said otherwise. I've done a little digging and could not find confirmation that Ferguson was behind the helicopter either, this was the Mirror reporting it back in 2009, the same paper which made claims that Mel was flying drones over training. I'm also still yet to find this confirmation of Mourinho in the laundry basket, another unconfirmed rumour, or find anything more on AVB actually spying on training sessions. I'm looking for direct quotes because I'm not going to just pick up a tabloid and take it as fact. For someone that is hot on legalities usually, I'm surprised by your willingness to publicly make accusations without evidence to back your comments up. I showed you the 'proof' last night ? The Mail and The Times alleged that about 10 minutes before the end of the game, which Chelsea won 4-2, the manager clambered into one of the laundry skips. Maniche (played under Mourinho at Porto, Chelsea and Inter) said he snook into the changing rooms to deliver team-talks on one occasion. During a match between Porto and Boavista in 2004. How that has any relevance to Frank is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: I showed you the 'proof' last night ? The Mail and The Times alleged that about 10 minutes before the end of the game, which Chelsea won 4-2, the manager clambered into one of the laundry skips. Maniche (played under Mourinho at Porto, Chelsea and Inter) said he snook into the changing rooms to deliver team-talks on one occasion. During a match between Porto and Boavista in 2004. How that has any relevance to Frank is anyone's guess. They allege, but there is no proof, the Chelsea one is still a complete myth/internet rumour Maniche confirmed it took place whilst at Porto, and I guess people have ran with the he did it there, bet he did it at Chelsea. "Mourinho, in the second season as Porto coach was prevented from giving instructions to his team in the interval of the game between Boavista and Porto," he recalls within 'Maniche 18', which is set to be translated into English during 2019 after its release in Portuguese last year. "We were all in the dressing room when,suddenly a basket of dirty clothes appeared in the middle of the room, and in the middle of the clothes came Mourinho! "He hid himself so he could go to the dressing room to give instructions to his players." https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/mourinho-hid-in-a-laundry-basket-to-give-us-instructions-ex/et3mwdsa1rqe16lg26of5wg3r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owd miner Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I've just seen someone suspicious hanging around mi pigeon shed ..... I reckon he's from Accrington pigeon fancier's club... We Gorra race wi em coming up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 So... erm... Yeah. Dirty Leeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 30 minutes ago, David said: What right have you got to dismiss our views as biased herd mentality and claiming that had this been another club other than Leeds we would not have been bothered, painting us as sore losers. If you don't like people questioning your views, perhaps you should stop and think before questioning others, this works both ways. Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 hours ago, StivePesley said: You're telling me - I'm here agreeing with you and @Norman and disagreeing with @Lambchop This isn't supposed to happen! ? I'm feeling a bit left out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, StringerBell said: I'm feeling a bit left out. Luvyababes xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.