17/18 Loan Watch

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I have to say that I remember many on here being really pleased when we got him. Own up....who was it?

[McRainy]

2 hours ago, whiteroseram said:

.if he's that bad why is he starting still?

They seem to have about a dozen long term injuries. 

[angieram]

1 minute ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I have to say that I remember many on here being really pleased when we got him. Own up....who was it?

I thought he looked good playing for Huddersfield.  We'd just lost Bryson and Hughes so yes,  I  was pleased.

I also thought he played well for Clement and I particularly remember the game away at Hull that took us top of the table. 

Butterfield 's career stalled alongside our season that year and he hasn't recovered yet.

[rynny]

6 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

We bought Butterfield in a panic when Hughes and Bryson were badly injured in the first half of the opening game of the season. If I recall we bid about 750k for him. Huddersfield said 5m. We said, OK it's an emergency so we'll give you 1.5m.  Huddersfield said 5m. As was their right when they didn't want to sell and had wealthy ownership who didn't need the money. 

We should have had a load of other targets, based both on the quality of the player but also the financial state of a player's club, so we'd know where to shop to get the best value. Instead we paid 5m as our terrible recruitment team seemed to believe he was the one player in the world who could do the job. 

I feel sorry for him because he must feel the move destroyed his career. It was terrible business all round. I really hope he can start performing so he might help take points from our rivals and so there will be takers to buy him at the end of the season, but it's not looking good. 

Didn't we put a bid in for Dale Stephens at Brighton?

[TobyWanKenobi]

44 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I have to say that I remember many on here being really pleased when we got him. Own up....who was it?

Some people back every signing we make! Crazy people!

[Dimmu]

In a right role, he is a classy player.

That what he was with Powell and even Rowett got one great game out of him at the end of last season, was it against Wolves?

Fans usually just tend to see players in either negative or positive halo effect without thinking anything further.

[Mistaram]

3 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

From an analysis of yesterday's game on the Swindon forum:

"Elsnik is the best player at the club by a country mile, his shooting and passing skills are exceptional, my only slight complaint is that he has a great shot so please shoot more often! their keeper was dodgy as **** with long ranger shots so we should have peppered his goal a bit more.

"Gordon needs to improve his delivery on crosses, he doesn't have the pace that he thinks he has so rarely can beat a defender for pace but looked better when we went 4 at the back and he was pushed up, still not 1st team standard yet IMO more of an impact sub."

For those who didn't see, Swindon played most of the game with 10 men but after outrageous skill Elsnik hit the post with a left foot shot from 30 yards and a striker followed up to net the rebound, and then with a couple of minutes to go he hit the bar with a right foot shot from 20 yards.

Lowe and Zanzala were unused subs. The same for Emil Riis Jacobsen who was on the bench for VVV Venlo's home win against Feyenord. Bent was injured so not in the squad for Burton at Villa. Bryson remains out of the Cardiff squad for the same reason. Shackell came on for the last five minutes to help Millwall see out their 0-2 away win at Reading, for whom Martin had come on as a 68th minute sub.

Guy has been right back for Bradford but wass moved into midfield for their 2-1 defeat at Oldham. He played the full 90 with the BBC report saying "Bradford posed little attacking threat until the 65th minute when Callum Guy drove wide from the edge of the 18-yard box."

Vernam played 66 minutes of Grimsby's home draw with Cheltenham.

Great for Mason Bennett to get his debut goal coming off the bench for County against Crewe, and he hit the bar in injury time.

Macabi Tel Aviv and Nick Blackman play tonight at 7pm. Apologies if I've missed anyone!

Thanks for that Carl great summary That's a surprise though Bent injured he's never going to play at Villa though was he 

[Mistaram]

2 hours ago, Duracell said:

I also feel like the Butterfield signing was data-driven rather than football-driven.

By that, I mean my understanding of the way we operated at the time was to draw up a list of targets for players in certain positions with attributes desired by the manager. This was done by a mixture of statistical analysis, video analysis and watching the player live wherever possible.

Given that there were a lot of cooks in the kitchen at the time, I can imagine that Butterfield’s name was top of the CM list where a ball-playing midfielder who kept possession safe was desired. Statistically speaking, a like-for-like comparison between Hughes and Buterfield would look very similar at the time: high pass completion rates, few goals but many touches, make themselves available for passes.

Of course the reality was they weren’t similar at all. Hughes brings aggression, Butterfield doesn’t. Although Hughes himself didn’t score and have many assists to his name, he had the ability to unlock space and make those around him play better in the way that Butterfield couldn’t. Butterfield was also a much better finisher, and playing him further forward, he always looked more likely to grab goals than Hughes ever did. These are things which are difficult to quantify, and you only pick up by watching a player regularly.

That whole era had the feeling of recruitment without soul. We went for players based on all sorts of clever systems it would seem, but to the point where it overruled common sense. Nigel Clough had a far more impressive strike rate without the resources simply by sending off someone he trusted to watch a player in action and then doing his homework on their character to see if they’d fit in. We recruited badly by trying to be too clever, imo.

Duracell  I think that's a very fair assessment Butterfield was a good player when he first came in fact he had a few MoM  I can remember going to Hull and he was unplayable  But after while he was being crucified for passing sideways to keep possession without fans even questioning was he playing to orders Eventually like any player it shattered his confidence Derby fans will always have a scapegoats its been Keogh Christie Butters and Fozzy at the moment  It never helps just futile and childish wonder what all the Keogh haters think now 

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

27 minutes ago, Mistaram said:

Duracell  I think that's a very fair assessment Butterfield was a good player when he first came in fact he had a few MoM  I can remember going to Hull and he was unplayable  But after while he was being crucified for passing sideways to keep possession without fans even questioning was he playing to orders Eventually like any player it shattered his confidence Derby fans will always have a scapegoats its been Keogh Christie Butters and Fozzy at the moment  It never helps just futile and childish wonder what all the Keogh haters think now 

Don’t forget Lawrence, now Johnny has left Lawrence is getting the full scapegoat treatment. Does every other teams fans do this or is it just Derby fans that have to find a player to hammer even when we’re winning? 

Just watched the championship highlights and I think some of the Wednesday fans may be going a bit OTT, one of the fans on there blamed the second goal solely on Butterfed even though the ball goes through the keepers and then his legs into the net ?

[TobyWanKenobi]

1 minute ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Don’t forget Lawrence, now Johnny has left Lawrence is getting the full scapegoat treatment. Does every other teams fans do this or is it just Derby fans that have to find a player to hammer even when we’re winning? 

Just watched the championship highlights and I think some of the Wednesday fans may be going a bit OTT, one of the fans on there blamed the second goal solely on Butterfed even though the ball goes through the keepers and then his legs into the net ?

I really don't think that saying Lawrence could stand to improve his performance is 'scapegoating'. Certainly not in the same was as Keogh for example.

Personally I think he could do with starting from the bench for a couple of games. That's not scapegoating, its trying to improve performance, but hey, were in second, therefore I must be wrong.

[Mistaram]

16 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

Don’t forget Lawrence, now Johnny has left Lawrence is getting the full scapegoat treatment. Does every other teams fans do this or is it just Derby fans that have to find a player to hammer even when we’re winning? 

Just watched the championship highlights and I think some of the Wednesday fans may be going a bit OTT, one of the fans on there blamed the second goal solely on Butterfed even though the ball goes through the keepers and then his legs into the net ?

No I'm sure its not just Derby fans it doesn't matter how well a team plays there will always be couple who are not quite on it That's football especially in the Championship .It gets me though when they call a player useless you wonder if they have clue what it takes to become a Championship player  I would bet most of them would struggle to run a bath 

[QuitYourJibbaJivin]

33 minutes ago, TobyWanKenobi said:

I really don't think that saying Lawrence could stand to improve his performance is 'scapegoating'. Certainly not in the same was as Keogh for example.

That would be a reasoned opinion and I’d accept that, but I’ve seen so many far more negative comments than that towards TL. He’s obviously struggling with form/confidence at the minute, the lad needs some encouragement not heckling.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

Jacob Butterfield needs to be played further forward, he is close to being a number 10.

Managers continue to play him defensively, strangely.

He has one of the best shots on him and can pick a pass, absolutely useless when he is shielding the defense.

I say it so often, played correctly he could be our Wes Hoolahan.

 

[TobyWanKenobi]

19 minutes ago, QuitYourJibbaJivin said:

That would be a reasoned opinion and I’d accept that, but I’ve seen so many far more negative comments than that towards TL. He’s obviously struggling with form/confidence at the minute, the lad needs some encouragement not heckling.

I've hardly seen any tbh. Yes there's the occasional person who has nothing but criticism about everything, but they are trolls.

[whiteroseram]

Bradford sack their manager, lets hope the next manager has Callum Guy in his plans (ideally as CM not RB!) 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Elsnik doing really well. I'm sure Rowett has his eye on him as he seems to have taken to competitive football very well.

[OohMartWright]

Why has this thread been moved? Surely all of the players we are talking about are Derby players?????

[Leicester Ram]

57 minutes ago, OohMartWright said:

Why has this thread been moved? Surely all of the players we are talking about are Derby players?????

Gives it more exposure than it gets in Rams Talk. There’ll be very new few transfer threads that are active in the next few months, this is a good place to keep loan watch front and centre on the forum.

Seeing as there’s so many of them out right now, it’s fitting, there’s going to be a lot to discuss.

[cannable]

On 04/02/2018 at 12:03, Carl Sagan said:

We should have had a load of other targets, based both on the quality of the player but also the financial state of a player's club, so we'd know where to shop to get the best value. Instead we paid 5m as our terrible recruitment team seemed to believe he was the one player in the world who could do the job. 

 

On 04/02/2018 at 17:03, Duracell said:

I also feel like the Butterfield signing was data-driven rather than football-driven.

By that, I mean my understanding of the way we operated at the time was to draw up a list of targets for players in certain positions with attributes desired by the manager. This was done by a mixture of statistical analysis, video analysis and watching the player live wherever possible.

Given that there were a lot of cooks in the kitchen at the time, I can imagine that Butterfield’s name was top of the CM list where a ball-playing midfielder who kept possession safe was desired. Statistically speaking, a like-for-like comparison between Hughes and Buterfield would look very similar at the time: high pass completion rates, few goals but many touches, make themselves available for passes.

Of course the reality was they weren’t similar at all. Hughes brings aggression, Butterfield doesn’t. Although Hughes himself didn’t score and have many assists to his name, he had the ability to unlock space and make those around him play better in the way that Butterfield couldn’t. Butterfield was also a much better finisher, and playing him further forward, he always looked more likely to grab goals than Hughes ever did. These are things which are difficult to quantify, and you only pick up by watching a player regularly.

I’d say Butters brought more control as well, the Wolves game last season was how we should have used him all along (ignoring the fact we had George). He even stated in his first interview that he wanted to be the player with the most passes on the pitch.

We had a Hughes clone in Dawkins, who in his brief spell in centre-midfield was man of the match every game I believe and was our best player in the Pompey cup game as well. 

I maintain that I wouldn’t have done as bad a job as our recruitment team did that summer and January. I might not have improved the side but I certainly wouldn’t have set it as far back as we did. 

Johnson was the biggest shambles. We signed him because we were told he was available.

[OohMartWright]

49 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said:

Gives it more exposure than it gets in Rams Talk. There’ll be very new few transfer threads that are active in the next few months, this is a good place to keep loan watch front and centre on the forum.

Seeing as there’s so many of them out right now, it’s fitting, there’s going to be a lot to discuss.

I'm all for giving it lots of exposure (Ooh Matron ) but how many people actually go into Transfer Talk once the transfer window is closed? I don't. It will be a complete PITA to have to go into Transfer Talk every time when every other thread on it is effectively useless until the summer. Surely a better option would have been to pin the thread but keep it in Rams Talk. I reiterate that they are still Derby players and talking about them is Rams Talk.