Repeal and Replace

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

What formation did Wolves play? I was at a wedding so only have live text, write ups and highlights to go on. Did the wingers not track back? Our midfield three is low on mobility to me. But the bigger issue is intensity and energy, I'm watching other teams and they seem to want it twice as much as we do. We look slow, ponderous and massively lacking in ambition even in comparison to teams like Bristol.

Wolves set up 3-4-3 so we were light in midfield with 4-3-3- we should shave gone 4-2-3-1 after about half an hour just to simply try and block and frustrate concerning that we didn't really change until there was only half an hour left

[61GT]

1 hour ago, sage said:

Rather than condemn Rowett after watching yesterday's performance, perhaps we should instead appreciate the task ahead of him.

The squad doesn't need tweaking of freshening up, it needs a repair job not dissimilar to the one faced by NC.

Almost every outfield player purchased after NC and before GR has been more expensive and worse than the player they replaced. That is going to take a long time to sort out. More than one transfer window.

It would appear that we can only bring in one more senior player without selling or loaning players out. At this point note how our transfer section is full of threads about potential incomings, tales of linked players and thwarted bids. Notice there are no threads on potential outgoings. Because we are paying more in wages than the players are worth. No one wants them. 

I know people are also frustrated by our style of football yesterday but when we tried to play a more expansive style they ripped us apart. We need to get used to a compact system against teams, even at home, until we improve the squad.

We looked 5 or 6 players short of a promotion team yesterday. Hopefully Forsyth's confidence and match fitness will improve and Thorne will get and stay fit. That would save us time and money.

The main things that worry me at the minute is that a) other than James we haven't been linked to another senior CM and we have massive issues there and b) as i have alluded to in another thread our managerial instability is hindering us in the loan market. 

We need to lose around 10 players and gain 6 and even if we manage to sell and buy well it's going to be a long and frustrating time until we get there. I hope we and Mel both appreciate the enormity of the task and have the patience to see it through.

 

Spot on! Best post I've read for some time.

 

[Alph]

I'd love to agree Sage. 

But he stumbled across a system last season that seemed to work. It may not be enough but it's better than this. He abandoned it and dropped 2 of the players that seemed to play their better stuff since arriving. 

It doesn't give me much hope when a manager does stuff like that, does it you?

I had huge faith in Nigel for a while. That 4231 with Kuqi? Nah, it wasn't good enough to get us to top 6 but it was a start. It suited the players. We just needed better players.

1 Luke Moore, few defeats later, a Connor Sammon and the chance to build is gone. 

Rowett still has a chance. But if he thinks buying Tom Lawrence is the answer then I'm worried. Cristiano Ronaldo wouldn't be enough while that midfield 3 continue to get boxed in the centre circle.

[Sexydadbod]

This summer should have been the biggest clearout in recent times here. There would have been no excuses after our position in the league last season. 

The team how it is is miles off the top 6. If we added Irvine,Toral,Kent(loan) and Lawrence then I'd be more confident of getting into the 6. Them players would instantly solve our lack of creativity on the wings and in midfield which would give more service to Martin.

[sage]

12 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I'd love to agree Sage. 

But he stumbled across a system last season that seemed to work. It may not be enough but it's better than this. He abandoned it and dropped 2 of the players that seemed to play their better stuff since arriving. 

It doesn't give me much hope when a manager does stuff like that, does it you?

I had huge faith in Nigel for a while. That 4231 with Kuqi? Nah, it wasn't good enough to get us to top 6 but it was a start. It suited the players. We just needed better players.

1 Luke Moore, few defeats later, a Connor Sammon and the chance to build is gone. 

Rowett still has a chance. But if he thinks buying Tom Lawrence is the answer then I'm worried. Cristiano Ronaldo wouldn't be enough while that midfield 3 continue to get boxed in the centre circle.

4231 may suit us more but it wouldn't have helped yesterday as we would still play very narrow.

That is how he wants to play as signified by the fact that we have narrowed the pitch this year.

You are right in that CM is at least as big an issue as the wingers.

Out of interest, who would you pick for that formation from our current fit players.

[Charlie G]

6 minutes ago, McLovin said:

This summer should have been the biggest clearout in recent times here. There would have been no excuses after our position in the league last season. 

The team how it is is miles off the top 6. If we added Irvine,Toral,Kent(loan) and Lawrence then I'd be more confident of getting into the 6. Them players would instantly solve our lack of creativity on the wings and in midfield which would give more service to Martin.

Agreed we should have had a clear out but what do you do when nobody wants your players. The bottom line is that the players earn to much and they don't want to move. Until their contracts run down were up sh** street without a paddle 

[Sexydadbod]

2 minutes ago, Charlie G said:

Agreed we should have had a clear out but what do you do when nobody wants your players. The bottom line is that the players earn to much and they don't want to move. Until their contracts run down were up sh** street without a paddle 

There's always someone out there who would like some players. Even if we loaned them out if would be better than nothing. I'd have sold them for a loss personally because it's not as if some of the players I'm thinking  are young and will improve. Sometimes you just need to accept that a player doesn't suit the team's needs. I'd rather have a player who is worse individually but better for the team than a player who may be good but doesn't suit the team.

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, Saul Pimpson said:

Given you a like, but with a core of Carson + back 4 + Huddlestone + Martin then I'd say it's the other 4 positions that need improving whether that be via signings or getting better performances out of the ones we've got.

With a McClaren-style manager, I would agree. But Rowett wants to play a much more direct system.  Martin just cannot do the job he is being asked to do (deal with repeated long balls, with no support), and neither can any of the other forwards we have.  The back 4 are all good players, but they are all slightly mistake prone - that's fine if you're setting up to keep the ball and reduce the amount of defending they have to do, but we're doing the opposite, and it's exposing all of their weaknesses. And it's the same for Huddlestone - he's a great playmaker, but not a great defensive midfielder, so if we were focussing on keeping the ball he would be great, but we're not.  So we get games like yesterday where we have no ball retention up front and the opponents get to repeatedly run at Huddlestone and he's useless (which in turn exposes the back 4 even more).

It's okay saying we've got to wait a few years for Rowett to get things sorted, but the most important question is, do we want to go where Rowett is going to take us? Do we want to waste years rebuilding, if we end up with a dour, defensive, boring team like his Birmingham and Burton teams were?  I certainly don't.

[Mafiabob]

Says a lot when our most agile midfielder is currently George Thorne.....

[Sparkle]

In fairness to Martin the only balls hit in his direction came from our back five which gave him no chance at all and neither would any body else

[Inglorius]

Rowett should be getting more out of his current squad, simple. Johnson and Butterfield looked totally disinterested yesterday, the whole team performance was insipid, formation wasn't working but Rowett did nothing to change anything. Football managements not just about buying the best players.

[Charlie G]

2 minutes ago, McLovin said:

There's always someone out there who would like some players. Even if we loaned them out if would be better than nothing. I'd have sold them for a loss personally because it's not as if some of the players I'm thinking  are young and will improve. Sometimes you just need to accept that a player doesn't suit the team's needs. I'd rather have a player who is worse individually but better for the team than a player who may be good but doesn't suit the team.

There may well be teams out there who would take our players but I just can't see them affording their wages. The players we have are on very high wages, remember we got Bradley Johnson from Norwich who had just been promoted. Now,  he would have got a pay rise for this and for us to then entice him here we would then need to pay him even more. I don't think many supporters out there really have an idea how much these players earn , me included however there must be a reason for nobody to come in for them. 

 

[Alph]

11 minutes ago, sage said:

4231 may suit us more but it wouldn't have helped yesterday as we would still play very narrow.

That is how he wants to play as signified by the fact that we have narrowed the pitch this year.

You are right in that CM is at least as big an issue as the wingers.

Out of interest, who would you pick for that formation from our current fit players.

20 games ago I wouldn't pick Vydra for the bench but I thought he looked pretty decent in that system. I don't think anything he does will get top 6 yet. I just think he is wasting his time with the 3 boxed in midfield and the long ball to Martin that nobody supports. 

Don't like picking teams but.. Huddlestone and Johnson DM

Anya, Russell, Vydra and then Nugent vs Martin for the front spot. 

If we're going to be more direct and counter attacking then we might as well split the team in half pretty much. 

You're spot on that he hasn't got the players to do any 1 thing really well. 

If he continues with this system he must change the midfield. We need to stop getting boxed in by our own slow, rubbish passing and negative positioning. 3 blokes stood holding hands using binoculars to see Chris Martin. Wingers getting dragged back because we invite pressing and give momentum to the opponent.. He can't carry on with those 3 operating as they are. Can'tRunTom, Can'tPassBrad, Can'tBiteButters.

You know international friendlies where there's no pressing and players stroke the ball about looking classy? Those 3 think they're in one of them. 

[Gandalf's shin pads]

Virtually everything Sage said in the original post is pretty much on the money for me (if you'll pardon the pun!)

Unfortunately we have been at least partly caught in a trap of our own making financially/transfer wise. We appear to have greatly overpaid both in terms of transfer fees and wages over the last two or three seasons for players no better than those they replaced and it would seem we now have to sell to buy to balance the books. We have helped create a market we can no longer compete in.

Players of the quality we need in the numbers we need them are now beyond our budget, Jota and maybe even James being examples. Lawrence would be a start but two or three more are needed.

Wolves are clearly a decent outfit but I've seen far better second tier sides at Pride Park over the last ten or eleven years. We made them look twice the team they are. The difference in attacking play was truly glaring and that has as much to do with our own stagnation/regression since 2013/14 as their quality...

 

[Lokidoki]

10 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

Rowett did nothing to change anything.

And that is my main worry. At Sunderland the same thing happened and he did not change until too late. If 20 odd thousand supporters can see that the shape is wrong then why can't GR?

I for one, do wish that GR can correct these in-game problems as I would like GR to be very successful but the way we have played and not just this season - the back end of last, is a real worry. It is not even top ten stuff.

We have also talked over and over again about players being over valued but in all actuality they probably are at the going rate if a team wants that player. The issue has been for quite a while, not the quality of the players but the balance and blend. Take anyone of these players and put them in a team that suits them and they will perform, it's just that together they can't, or at least not very often can.

I think GR alluded to it yesterday on Radio Derby, when he said that  on the training ground they all perform to his expectations but in a game it appears a different matter.

Perhaps it's time to bring in the youth like Timi in midfield. I also feel that he needs to deal with the obvious such as;  Fozzie is not up to it (yet) , RK is not a captain and loses it for 30 minutes if he makes an error, our wingers cannot play tucked in in a compact 433, that JB and BJ cannot play together in midfield, that we should be analysing the opposition a lot more before the game, that maybe 433 is out moded (perhaps Mel needs to get this too) and that this influx of professional modern management from the continent is changing the way that teams play and are set up.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

We are like a charity shop at the minute, people look in and walk straight back out. People even cover their faces as they walk back out as if they didn't want to be seen looking in.

What does get sold, get's sold at knock down prices and the person who brought it realises they can sell on at a much higher price almost immediately. 

We need to move from a charity shop ASAP and get ourselves into Primark for a few months, by the time January sales come we need to be aiming for River Island as a minimum. 

 

 

[1967Ram]

1 hour ago, Inglorius said:

Rowett should be getting more out of his current squad, simple. Johnson and Butterfield looked totally disinterested yesterday, the whole team performance was insipid, formation wasn't working but Rowett did nothing to change anything. Football managements not just about buying the best players.

I totally agree. The attendance yesterday of 27757 was disappointing IMO (I didn't go by the way and glad I didn't in hindsight). Our last five years first home league fixtures:

2017 v Wolves           27757

2016 v Brighton         28749

2015 v Charlton         29045

2014 v Rotherham     30105

2013 v Blackburn       21188

Biggest away contingent surely was Wolves yesterday I would think. The Blackburn game was live on Sky on a Sunday.

 

[G STAR RAM]

21 minutes ago, CHCDerby said:

We are like a charity shop at the minute, people look in and walk straight back out. People even cover their faces as they walk back out as if they didn't want to be seen looking in.

What does get sold, get's sold at knock down prices and the person who brought it realises they can sell on at a much higher price almost immediately. 

We need to move from a charity shop ASAP and get ourselves into Primark for a few months, by the time January sales come we need to be aiming for River Island as a minimum. 

Who are these players we sold at knockdown prices?

I will ask you the same question I have already asked 3 posters, without response. Who are the comparables that show we have sold our players at low prices?

[1967Ram]

11 minutes ago, 1967Ram said:

I totally agree. The attendance yesterday of 27757 was disappointing IMO (I didn't go by the way and glad I didn't in hindsight). Our last five years first home league fixtures:

2017 v Wolves           27757

2016 v Brighton         28749

2015 v Charlton         29045

2014 v Rotherham     30105

2013 v Blackburn       21188

Biggest away contingent surely was Wolves yesterday I would think. The Blackburn game was live on Sky on a Sunday.

 

Just seen the other attendance thread - sorry

[YouRams]

With how Rowett was talking pre season I don't think he's going to get time to rebuild. Talking up a top two finish with additions, were miles off that. Maybe MM just sees the money spent and expects miracles, stability is needed so I hope he gives him time.