Joe McClaren interview re: Scouting

[cannable]

http://www.planetfootball.com/in-depth/derby-scout-explains-clubs-use-stats-identify-analyse-defenders/

[Rab a dab doo]

Obviously a long and involved process. Stats are ok to certain degree. it is very few experienced  knowledgeable scouts who can see potential which can be developed into the stars of the future.These are the people who are worth thier weight in gold. 

You do however need a receptive management to make a good judgement call and act on advice. 

A good scouting setup  can be the making of a team (especially those with finite resources).

An interesting article  which seems to highlight footballs hang-up with stats does actual mean a great deal.

[Curtains]

Good article.

Instinct is what Brian Clough used when assessing players and he also bought  players to do a specific job like Alan Hinton for instance telling him do what yo do best pinpoint crosses and fantastic shooting etc. 

[cosmic]

29 minutes ago, curtains said:

Good article.

Instinct is what Brian Clough used when assessing players and he also bought  players to do a specific job like Alan Hinton for instance telling him do what yo do best pinpoint crosses and fantastic shooting etc. 

Thanks for quoting that long-ass article before not referencing any of it. Really enjoyed pointlessly scrolling through all that again on my phone. 

[Curtains]

Just now, cosmic said:

Thanks for quoting that long-ass article before not referencing any of it. Really enjoyed pointlessly scrolling through all that again on my phone. 

Sorry mate .

All seems a bit too complicated nowadays when assessing players. 

[Alex W]

Can someone therefore explain Abdoul Camara, please. 

[rammieib]

I think you can make something complicated when there is also no need to be.

Build up a good network of scouts, identify good players, watch them a few times, and then obtain references on that player of the field. Once this is all ticked off - make a bid.

DCFC should have people that know the top 10 leagues in Derby inside out. A lot of our competition especially Prem clubs will have this knowledge. I don't think we do.

[cosmic]

11 minutes ago, curtains said:

Sorry mate .

All seems a bit too complicated nowadays when assessing players. 

You're right. I think there's too much emphasis on stats in many walks of life and it can cloud judgement. Data should never drive a decision, but instead reinforce it.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Its all part of it, but, the key bit is what useful information are the stats giving you. Data is just numbers representing a thing. A statistic is essentially a number generated from the data.

What information that gives you is a matter of interpretation, hence the common cynicism that you can prove anything with statistics.

But, people love them because its a number, not a feeling or a judgment. And as was said above,its not just football but everywhere that this is happening.

For an off topic, but interesting series on this, have a look for "the trap" by Adam Curtis. I'm not sure if its up on YouTube or anything but I'm sure the google can help.

 

[richinspain]

As Jimmy Sirrel once said;

"Stats are like a mini skirt. Very nice to look at but hide what is really important!"

[RamNut]

Quote

The AC Milan icon’s sentiment was more recently echoed by Xabi Alonso, who suggested: “Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn’t a quality to aspire to, a definition.”

I guess he never saw Dave Mackay.

[Tombo]

51 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I guess he never saw Dave Mackay.

When the defensive line do their job correctly, there's no need for a Dave Mackay to have to clean up the mess. 

[RamO]

8 hours ago, cannable said:

“To help counteract this in terms of stats we can weight the statistics to produce higher scores to the defenders that are playing in leagues more relative to the Championship.

Well this goes some way to explain why we don't sign many players from overseas. The stats on players in leagues dissimilar to the championship are down-weighted. This could possibly mean that an awesome player (statistically) in a Spanish League might have similar stats to an average player in the Championship. 

I'm not expressing an opinion on this. Scouting is obviously a very complicated task with many factors involved. Statistics being only part of the story.

[RamNut]

5 hours ago, Tombo said:

When the defensive line do their job correctly, there's no need for a Dave Mackay to have to clean up the mess. 

I promise you that tackling was never so beautiful to behold.

[Angry Ram]

10 hours ago, richinspain said:

As Jimmy Sirrel once said;

"Stats are like a mini skirt. Very nice to look at but hide what is really important!"

@Ellafella will be having nightmares reading this. We have often locked horns on the relevance of statistics ?

 

[Igorwasking]

I work in IT, and use data all the time. If you consider the approach as the following, it can inform very insightful decisions;

Data - raw data - like players stats.

Information - the analyst interprets the data - like "that players arial duel data is impressive"

Knowledge - knowing that certain data points need to be supported by others - I.e. The quality of the opposition faced

Wisdom - Having done this for so long - immediately sensing what you are looking at and what it means, and therefore how to act.

What I see is that data is a great way to tell you what to look at - but without wisdom, you are not certain of making good decisions based on that data.

We haven't got a great recruiting record of late - might that improve now we have Wisdom?

 ?

 

[cheron85]

13 hours ago, Alex W said:

Can someone therefore explain Abdoul Camara, please. 

Yes

15 hours ago, cannable said:

“Scouting across Europe also brings its issues in the level of player the defender plays alongside and the level of attacking players they play against,” McClaren says.

Also interesting that this website ONLY interviews people with a Derby connection

15 hours ago, cannable said:

We have already spoken to Stoke City’s goalkeeping coach Andy Quy about the difficulty of using stats to assess goalkeepers, and now thanks to Derby County’s chief scout Joe McClaren, we have been provided with an insight into how clubs identify potential defensive signings.

 

[Tombo]

Before we get into this argument about "stats don't tell us everything". First of all yes it can, it's just working out which set of data you need to look at to find what you need. True though, it can't accurately predict whether a player will be successful or not but human scouts are also infallible and nothing is perfect.

The most important part of statistical analysis is the analysts themselves. Using stats in football is still in its infancy, which is crazy considering how much data we can gather in 2017. We've got all the data in front of us but we don't know how to use it yet.

The misunderstanding around this is usually fans that think using stats means going to a computer database, clicking "list by number of goals" and buying the dude that's scored the most. That's actually what rich clubs do when they don't have any good scouting. It doesn't mean buying the best players in the league on paper, it means the opposite.

It means buying players for specific roles that the club needs, based on what they can do.

For example, you might have a winger who just seems to never get any goals or assists. But what he does is he keeps the ball well and has pace to chase wild outballs. Your team often will smash a ball out to the wings when defending. Some call him a waste of a wide position. He doesn't have a good finish. Doesn't have a good cross. But he provides something else, at least for you anyway.

Statistics are the key to "hidden gems". 

[Curtains]

39 minutes ago, Tombo said:

Before we get into this argument about "stats don't tell us everything". First of all yes it can, it's just working out which set of data you need to look at to find what you need. True though, it can't accurately predict whether a player will be successful or not but human scouts are also infallible and nothing is perfect.

The most important part of statistical analysis is the analysts themselves. Using stats in football is still in its infancy, which is crazy considering how much data we can gather in 2017. We've got all the data in front of us but we don't know how to use it yet.

The misunderstanding around this is usually fans that think using stats means going to a computer database, clicking "list by number of goals" and buying the dude that's scored the most. That's actually what rich clubs do when they don't have any good scouting. It doesn't mean buying the best players in the league on paper, it means the opposite.

It means buying players for specific roles that the club needs, based on what they can do.

For example, you might have a winger who just seems to never get any goals or assists. But what he does is he keeps the ball well and has pace to chase wild outballs. Your team often will smash a ball out to the wings when defending. Some call him a waste of a wide position. He doesn't have a good finish. Doesn't have a good cross. But he provides something else, at least for you anyway.

Statistics are the key to "hidden gems". 

I'd call it a waste of a wide position also mate .

Whats the point if he can't cross a ball and doesn't have a good finish .

We had that in Cyrus Christie but he was better than that. 

[Tombo]

1 hour ago, curtains said:

I'd call it a waste of a wide position also mate .

Whats the point if he can't cross a ball and doesn't have a good finish .

We had that in Cyrus Christie but he was better than that. 

In this theoretical team, he's pivotal in turning defense into attack. This team has a tendency to smash it out to the wings when under pressure, this guy will get the ball in this position and find other teammates in advanced positions.

What's the point having players who can score and assist if they can't retain possession?

Maybe if you were managing a team, this player would be wasted for you. Your philosophy might be that defenders need to have more composure and not just win the ball, but also distribute it better to turn defense into attack. You might have this player in your side, and you'd let him go on a free. For another team, he'd be a key player.

I'm simplifying it a little, but you get the idea. Recruiting to fit using statistical data. Don't just look at the basic goals and assists and things, but look at what players do well and recruit those skills. Don't just look for a good new winger, look for the right guy who has the skills to do the job.

Example: We didn't buy Tom Huddlestone because we wanted a new defensive midfielder. We bought him because we wanted a defensive midfielder who could create more chances from deep so we're not playing on the edge of the opposition box.