The CM situation

[RamNut]

On 9 February 2017 at 14:19, Alex W said:

De Sart is a useful player, needs time to learn the DM spot, an excellent ball player and a willing one but tackling wise he needs work.

I'm not convinced we need one.

easiest job on the pitch.

[Alex W]

1 hour ago, TexasRam said:

Based on what? serious what have we seen to say he's a useful player?  Excellent ball player, I'll have a pint of what your on, have you seen him the past few games. He's Lightweight, can't tackle and gives the ball away for fun, he's a loan signing who surely to good we are not going to buy, so why carry on playing this season. 

His ball playing isn't that bad, he screws up one pass in four as he's usually the one trying to spray the ball about, he's not Pirlo. He's definitely making mistakes but you can tell that side is low on confidence, generally he's trying to do the right thing and aside from some misplaced passes and telegraphing  the odd switch pass then he did fine last night. Definitely deserved the motm. 

 

As @RamNut says, I'm not sure we need a DM right now. I would however play him in a two with Hughes behind a striker, with Johnson next to him preferably. 

 

He was the best player on the pitch last night which doesn't take much but he did his part well, aside from a few sloppy balls that miscued. I assume Steve is playing him because he's currently better than the others which in a team that has been average to poor all season is probably a necessity. 

[Andrew James]

1 hour ago, TexasRam said:

Based on what? serious what have we seen to say he's a useful player?  Excellent ball player, I'll have a pint of what your on, have you seen him the past few games. He's Lightweight, can't tackle and gives the ball away for fun, he's a loan signing who surely to good we are not going to buy, so why carry on playing this season. 

I think he will come good, with no tackling these days a good passer is great, he will get better and move the ball a lot quicker, something George Thorne does well. 

[cannable]

1 hour ago, Ninos said:

No. Foretelling the PAST.

Name me who you'd want as our centre-forward

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, TexasRam said:

How on earth did he get MOTM last night! Unbelievable. And are balls to row F in the west stand are now good balls? He's not match sharp as he couldn't get a game for Boro and can't hold down a place for us, says it all. The question I'll ask is, why play him again this season, do you really think he's a player who we can build around for next season? And yes from what I've seen I think he's crap

I don't think he is crap but I also don't see the point in playing him again this season when we can gain something by playing our own players 

[cannable]

6 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I don't think he is crap but I also don't see the point in playing him again this season when we can gain something by playing our own players 

Coaching the eventual system for next season and seeing how the players work with a deep controller? 

[cannable]

2 hours ago, TexasRam said:

Based on what? serious what have we seen to say he's a useful player?  Excellent ball player, I'll have a pint of what your on, have you seen him the past few games. He's Lightweight, can't tackle and gives the ball away for fun, he's a loan signing who surely to good we are not going to buy, so why carry on playing this season. 

Played more accurate long passes than inaccurate, fact that too, not an opinion

[Sparkle]

Just now, cannable said:

Coaching the eventual system for next season and seeing how the players work with a deep controller? 

Maybe so, but game time for some of ours may help more

[cannable]

2 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Maybe so, but game time for some of ours may help more

Depends, McClaren's probably learning a fair bit about out player's limitations 

[OoooMarkWright]

I'm quite surprised that after the Burton game no one has really mentioned how poor Will Hughes performed.

i think Hughes is a fantastic player, but yesterday he contributed nothing. He hid in pockets, not offering himself and as a key player was unable to unlock Burtons stubborn defence. Considering he is supposed to be our main man (10-15m) he was subdued and offered nothing in terms of key passes or tempo.

I rate Hughes highly and when on his game he is a joy to watch but he needs to be more consistent. The performance he put on against Leicester was fantastic and since his injury he hasn't been the same. Is he fit? If not don't play him. Has he developed enough over the last 2 years? His tackling and strength is much improved, but he should be dominating games now, fingers crossed it's just his fitness, but I do worry slightly that he is plateauing in his development. 

[Sparkle]

6 hours ago, enachops said:

I'm quite surprised that after the Burton game no one has really mentioned how poor Will Hughes performed.

i think Hughes is a fantastic player, but yesterday he contributed nothing. He hid in pockets, not offering himself and as a key player was unable to unlock Burtons stubborn defence. Considering he is supposed to be our main man (10-15m) he was subdued and offered nothing in terms of key passes or tempo.

I rate Hughes highly and when on his game he is a joy to watch but he needs to be more consistent. The performance he put on against Leicester was fantastic and since his injury he hasn't been the same. Is he fit? If not don't play him. Has he developed enough over the last 2 years? His tackling and strength is much improved, but he should be dominating games now, fingers crossed it's just his fitness, but I do worry slightly that he is plateauing in his development. 

You are quite right he has been as consistent as the others have in midfield in terms of offensive play, - poor

[rynny]

12 hours ago, Ninos said:

He's found his best position at least.

People are in for a big shock when he comes back, mac builds his whole team around him and he does next to nothing. This whole return to the past idea as our best way forward is so sad it's pathetic. 

The thing people remember is that when Mac was here last time, up to the point Martin got injured at Bournemouth we were joint top, with Bournemouth. His injury coincided with the teams down turn in form.

Also we need a striker different to Bent that will show for the ball, too many times recently the midfield have had no option to go forwards as Bent has been stood behind the CB waiting for a long ball over the top to run after. We just don't have the midfielders that look for that ball. Cardiff game is the perfect example of what we need our striker to do, first half Bent was dropping deep, moving from CB to CB, Moving out wide and letting Anya come inside, we were moving their defence all around and they were struggling to cope with us. But second half he went and stood in the opposite quarter of the pitch to where our defence or midfield had it, If the ball was with Pearce or Olsson then he would go stand between their LCB and LB, and when Baird or Keogh had it he would stand between their RCB and RB this left the midfield not having much to pass to forward, it was only when Nugent came on that we got real movement up front in the second half.

[jono]

If we don't have a holding striker we need a bomber for a CM. Power strength tackling and pace with the ball at his feet.

If you have a holding attacker you CAN have a lighter midfield.

If Johnsons passing and touch were better he could be that man, but against good teams he gets caught

The link between mid and attack is the crux of our problem. We tend to focus on the lack of Chris Martin but the lack of the right midfielder to go with Will is the opposite end of the equation. We need an answer to one or the other.

The nearly men for are Butters and Jonno

Butterfield is weak and hesitant but there is a good player in there ... coaching and confidence please. He is young enough

Johnson lacks that 5% of technical ability

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, jono said:

Butterfield is weak and hesitant but there is a good player in there ... coaching and confidence please. He is young enough.

Still not convinced he thinks quickly enough.

[TuffLuff]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Still not convinced he thinks quickly enough.

Been thinking about all this recently, but I think it's more to do with players like Hughes and Butterfield don't really take the game by 'the scruff of the neck' so to speak. So they don't look to really come out and change the tempo. They need others to do it, that's why not being able to replace Thorne and Martin this season like for like has possibly caused the main problem. Players like Hughes/Butterfield/Ince/Russell feed of the quick movement and passing ability of those players and pick up the tempo with it.

To look at it another way, without Thorne and Martin we are missing 2/3's of the backbone of our team. Thorne marshalls what the midfield does and Martin does in the final third

[jono]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Still not convinced he thinks quickly enough.

I think Roy that is a problem running through a lot of the team. We don't spot runners, or if a runner has dragged a man out of position we don't use that space. Whether we call that speed of thought, or that wonderful football word "vision" is another thing. 

I have really liked seeing Nugents couple of appearances. He is dodging and weaving all over the place. We don't do that in midfield or attack often enough for my liking. 

[europia]

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 14:19, Alex W said:

De Sart is a useful player, needs time to learn the DM spot, an excellent ball player and a willing one but tackling wise he needs work.

Yes, no doubt he will develop this potential just in time for his return to Boro.

[jono]

16 hours ago, Warren Hobhead said:

I don't know about building the team around him but I look forward to him returning. I think we miss him massively. Fantastic knowing he'll be back next season, and Thorne and Forsyth too. 

 

It's not mere nostalgia, not for me. I genuinely just rate them as footballers and Mac as manager. 

I am of the same opinion but Ninos does have a point. Think about those games where Chris wasn't performing and all the things we said. He wasn't coming deep enough, he needs ball to feet, he keeps falling over etc etc ( and that's before we get to he's mardy and Ince and him don't like each other ) 

the fact remains that he is a good footballer and will add something when he comes back but he won't solve our failing to move the ball quickly and general forward mobility in the middle of the park. 

We have a solid back 4, we have options up front but we don't have a balanced engine room in the middle. We can look good if Will is having a blinder and the others respond, but that doesn't happen consistently enough for this team to be challengers at the top. 

[jono]

Incidentally, did anyone else notice in the last couple of games will drifting out almost to right wing and Ince almost going to a number 10 role .. I suppose to try and drag opponents out of shape but it left acres of room on the other side of the pitch with nothing going on ? ... Curious as it didn't seem to achieve much, almost like we executed half of a plan 

[Ninos]

5 hours ago, rynny said:

The thing people remember is that when Mac was here last time, up to the point Martin got injured at Bournemouth we were joint top, with Bournemouth. His injury coincided with the teams down turn in form.

Also we need a striker different to Bent that will show for the ball, too many times recently the midfield have had no option to go forwards as Bent has been stood behind the CB waiting for a long ball over the top to run after. We just don't have the midfielders that look for that ball. Cardiff game is the perfect example of what we need our striker to do, first half Bent was dropping deep, moving from CB to CB, Moving out wide and letting Anya come inside, we were moving their defence all around and they were struggling to cope with us. But second half he went and stood in the opposite quarter of the pitch to where our defence or midfield had it, If the ball was with Pearce or Olsson then he would go stand between their LCB and LB, and when Baird or Keogh had it he would stand between their RCB and RB this left the midfield not having much to pass to forward, it was only when Nugent came on that we got real movement up front in the second half.

This is absolutely all true and an excellent response. I see the same thing, and I don't doubt that Martin in this mac 4-3-3 system with the excellent players of vision and quickness around him would be better than what we are seeing now. 

But

to achieve the goal of replicating the past: a) you not only have to get martin but b) you have to get those other players and then c) you have to make it all gel. And any half decent manager will know how to stop us playing that system. Many who beat us bragged that they knew how to shut us down.  So you have to be able to adapt to another plan too. 

Backwards is not the only way forwards and there's more than one way to skin a cat. There are better more modern systems of play than the one Dutch one Mcclaren knows - built on a non pacy mostly stationary solo centre forward.