Poppy banned for England vs Scotland

[Mafiabob]

5 hours ago, davenportram said:

What's the difference between now and 2011.

 

Last played on Armistice Day in 1987 against Yugoslavia..... Also England v Scotland day before Armistice day in 99/00 season.....

Where was all the press outrage then? Are we more offended nowadays? How politicised is the poppy now?

Look, I think FIFA were wrong..... but I do wonder how many who are outraged on social media and beyond have made a donation to the poppy appeal instead of tweeting/posting their disgust about it instead...... 

I don't like what FIFA did, but I'm not offended..... 

[davenportram]

8 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

Last played on Armistice Day in 1987 against Yugoslavia..... Also England v Scotland day before Armistice day in 99/00 season.....

Where was all the press outrage then? Are we more offended nowadays? How politicised is the poppy now?

Look, I think FIFA were wrong..... but I do wonder how many who are outraged on social media and beyond have made a donation to the poppy appeal instead of tweeting/posting their disgust about it instead...... 

I don't like what FIFA did, but I'm not offended..... 

Maybe with the recent huge losses in action in recent times gas brought the act of rememberance more into the thoughts of the public than in 1987 or the late 90's. 

[Mafiabob]

2 hours ago, davenportram said:

Maybe with the recent huge losses in action in recent times gas brought the act of rememberance more into the thoughts of the public than in 1987 or the late 90's. 

I'd say the Falklands and Gulf War were fairly prominent..... not to mention WW1 veterans still being around and many Grandmas and Grandads who were around during WW2

[AndyinLiverpool]

2 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

I'd say the Falklands and Gulf War were fairly prominent..... not to mention WW1 veterans still being around and many Grandmas and Grandads who were around during WW2

a WW1 veteran would have to be about 120 years old.

[Mafiabob]

7 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

a WW1 veteran would have to be about 120 years old.

Re read the post Andy...... I was referring to Davs 80/90s part of his post ?

[Sith Happens]

13 hours ago, davenportram said:

Maybe with the recent huge losses in action in recent times gas brought the act of rememberance more into the thoughts of the public than in 1987 or the late 90's. 

I think you are right to a degree, but i also think people change too. It might be just me but i dont remember there being such a thing about 2 minutes silence as there is now either.

Just because we didnt do something in the past doesnt mean we shouldnt now.

That said a player (or anyone) should only wear a poppy if they choose too and have donated to the cause themselves, it does make me wonder when you see all these tv presenters etc that suddenly start wearing poppies a couple of weeks before the end of October...do tv companies have a big box of them and pin them on as they are getting ready, or has that person gone out and paid for it themselves and made a concious decision to wear it.

Its about wearing it for the right reasons, not wearing it for the 'seeing to be doing the right thing' reasons.

[davenportram]

14 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

I'd say the Falklands and Gulf War were fairly prominent..... not to mention WW1 veterans still being around and many Grandmas and Grandads who were around during WW2

For service personnel and families of servicemen yes i would agree, but at that time we weren't hearing reports of servicemen being killed an a daily or weekly basis, for a prolonged period as we have in Afghanistan and Iraq in recent times. These have been prolonged periods of engagement by our armed forces the likes of which many (especially the young) would not have seen before.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

19 minutes ago, davenportram said:

For service personnel and families of servicemen yes i would agree, but at that time we weren't hearing reports of servicemen being killed an a daily or weekly basis, for a prolonged period as we have in Afghanistan and Iraq in recent times. These have been prolonged periods of engagement by our armed forces the likes of which many (especially the young) would not have seen before.

 

I thought a lot of our army had to do tours of duty in Northern Ireland during the troubles of the 70's 80's and early '90's and that we lost quite a few casualties.

But of course I suppose the governments of the day perhaps would not want to give prominence to any of those losses. The main point is, although we have had a prolonged period of military action recently in Afghanistan and Irag, we really haven't (I don't think) suffered military losses on a scale that is different from those periods.

I hasten to add that I haven't looked up stats to support this view - just a gut instinct which could of course be wrong.

[davenportram]

17 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

I thought a lot of our army had to do tours of duty in Northern Ireland during the troubles of the 70's 80's and early '90's and that we lost quite a few casualties.

But of course I suppose the governments of the day perhaps would not want to give prominence to any of those losses. The main point is, although we have had a prolonged period of military action recently in Afghanistan and Irag, we really haven't (I don't think) suffered military losses on a scale that is different from those periods.

I hasten to add that I haven't looked up stats to support this view - just a gut instinct which could of course be wrong.

There were around 1441 losses in Ireland , 771 of them due hostile action deaths from  1969-2007, a period of almost 40 years.

 

In Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001 as at 31st October 2014 there had been about 700 losses 635 from hostile action. 

 

Both numbers are are too high but the rate of losses were incured in Afghanistan and Iraq is far higher than the former. Coupled with the risk from terror attacks being raised, more terror attacks around the world and increased amount of news sources and reporting this will raise awareness around rememberance in society

 

There will be more of a impact on Society than during the eighties and nineties - where the amount of news reports was far less than today.

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

7 minutes ago, davenportram said:

There were around 1441 losses in Ireland , 771 of them due hostile action deaths from  1969-2007, a period of almost 40 years.

 

In Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001 as at 31st October 2014 there had been about 700 losses 635 from hostile action. 

 

Both numbers are are too high but the rate of losses were incured in Afghanistan and Iraq is far higher than the former. Coupled with the risk from terror attacks being raised, more terror attacks around the world and increased amount of news sources and reporting

 

There will be more of a impact on Society than during the eighties and nineties - where the amount of news reports was far less than today.

 

 

this is rather the point - the perception rather than the reality. Northern Ireland troubles largely sank from view after the good Friday agreement in 1997. The numbers themselves are also questionable (see this article from 2005 which also references the Korean War - another that is largely forgotten). But the question remains as to whether the act of remembrance itself has become more politicised by successive governments (I don't think this would be attributable to any particular political party).

Even if so, tho - the sheer rank hypocrisy of FIFA imposing sanctions due to "political" reasons is breathtaking - on that we can surely all agree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1482975/Troop-deaths-in-Ulster-higher-than-thought.html

[AndyinLiverpool]

4 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

this is rather the point - the perception rather than the reality. Northern Ireland troubles largely sank from view after the good Friday agreement in 1997. The numbers themselves are also questionable (see this article from 2005 which also references the Korean War - another that is largely forgotten). But the question remains as to whether the act of remembrance itself has become more politicised by successive governments (I don't think this would be attributable to any particular political party).

Even if so, tho - the sheer rank hypocrisy of FIFA imposing sanctions due to "political" reasons is breathtaking - on that we can surely all agree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1482975/Troop-deaths-in-Ulster-higher-than-thought.html

I don't think it's political reasons. I think it's to do with personal statements by players.

[davenportram]

29 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

this is rather the point - the perception rather than the reality. Northern Ireland troubles largely sank from view after the good Friday agreement in 1997. The numbers themselves are also questionable (see this article from 2005 which also references the Korean War - another that is largely forgotten). But the question remains as to whether the act of remembrance itself has become more politicised by successive governments (I don't think this would be attributable to any particular political party).

Even if so, tho - the sheer rank hypocrisy of FIFA imposing sanctions due to "political" reasons is breathtaking - on that we can surely all agree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1482975/Troop-deaths-in-Ulster-higher-than-thought.html

My figures are from the official government statistics, Korea is the third heaviest losses. Both Korea and Ireland listed at over 1400 total losses each

[rynny]

Just when you thought fifa couldn't sink any lower.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38077727

[Zag zig]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

Just when you thought fifa couldn't sink any lower.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38077727

Such a fine body of moral conscience, only right they should thoroughly investigate 

[rynny]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38368144

Quote

Fifa has fined all four home nations for displaying poppies during World Cup qualifiers around Armistice Day.

England and Scotland players wore armbands featuring the symbol when they met at Wembley on 11 November.

Wales and Northern Ireland's respective games featured displays on the pitch or in the stands to mark the event.

England have been fined 45,000 Swiss francs (£35,311), Scotland and Wales 20,000 Sfr (£15,694) and Northern Ireland 15,000 Sfr (£11,770).

Fifa disciplinary committee chairman Claudio Sulser said he "fully respected" the commemorations but stressed the rules "need to be applied to all member associations".

"The display, among others, of any political or religious symbol is strictly prohibited," he added.

"In the stadium and on the pitch, there is only room for sport, nothing else."

According to the rule-making International Football Association Board (IFAB), players cannot wear "political, religious or personal slogans, statements or images".

But both England and Scotland players wore armbands featuring the poppy symbol during England's 3-0 win.

There was also a display of poppies on big screens, a minute's silence, playing of the Last Post and poppy T-shirts handed to the crowd.

Following Wales' 1-1 draw at home to Serbia the next day, Fifa opened disciplinary proceedings looking at "fans in the stands wearing the poppy" and the presence of "a member of the armed forces holding a bunch of poppies at the exit of the tunnel", according to the Football Association of Wales (FAW).

The holding of a minute's silence, the laying of a wreath and a poppy display by fans before Northern Ireland's 4-0 win over Azerbaijan on 11 November have led to the punishment of the Irish FA.

Fifa has also punished the Republic of Ireland with a 5,000 Sfr fine (£3,930) after its players wore shirts commemorating the centenary of the Easter Rising earlier this year.

How have the home nations responded?

Both the FA and FAW have yet to respond but Scottish FA (SFA) chief executive Stewart Regan says it is "clearly disappointing" that Fifa has ruled the poppy is a political symbol.

The SFA board will discuss the issue on Tuesday to decide on any appeal and will request the full reasons from Fifa.

It also plans to discuss the issue with the FA, FAW and Irish FA in the coming days.

The Irish FA said it was "disappointed", adding it "will take further legal advice before deciding on a future course of action".

 

[ossieram]

Why have England been hit for £20,000 more than the others? Scotland had no control over what happened at Wembley regarding what was on the screen or anything other than what their players wore and I assume that is why they get a lesser punishment. But Northern Ireland and Wales were both playing at home.

[rynny]

1 hour ago, ossieram said:

Why have England been hit for £20,000 more than the others? Scotland had no control over what happened at Wembley regarding what was on the screen or anything other than what their players wore and I assume that is why they get a lesser punishment. But Northern Ireland and Wales were both playing at home.

The only things I can think is we have more money within our FA/domestic league and are a higher profile.

[ketteringram]

2 hours ago, ossieram said:

Why have England been hit for £20,000 more than the others? Scotland had no control over what happened at Wembley regarding what was on the screen or anything other than what their players wore and I assume that is why they get a lesser punishment. But Northern Ireland and Wales were both playing at home.

Did Wales and Northern Ireland have them on the shirts? 

[therealhantsram]

28 minutes ago, ketteringram said:

Did Wales and Northern Ireland have them on the shirts? 

No. Stadium display instead.

[McRamFan]

FIFA, once you get your corrupted house in order, then you can start calling the shots, so whilst you are getting on with that, please leave alone what is a remebrance of the people who gave their lives so that people like you can operate in a free europe, in your ******* ivory tower ripping the guts and cash out of football from all the backhand bribes...opps presents you take and countries like Qatar, where workers are dying building the ******* stadium, sort that **** out first, you bunch of sanctimonious, fat, corrupt cockwombling gobblers, FOAD...NOW.

Merry ******* Christmas...