Poppy banned for England vs Scotland

[WhiteHorseRam]

I totally agree it is disgusting that some people think the poppy has been corrupted as a few ***** have seemingly adopted it for political reasons.

However, it has to be remembered that it is in its self an innocent symbol of tremendous personal sacrifice to preserve freedom.The reason we have 'poppy day' and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is that there were simply TOO MANY dead to be practically repatriated after World War 1.

I have visited the cemetery at Bayeux (where many of the Normandy campaign dead are buried) and what immediately strikes home is how young they are, 19 to 25 yrs old in the main. Think about what you were doing aged 18 ..... and what you have done since. Then imagine being called up, some fairly limited training, and it all ending somewhere muddy in France, with a lot of pain and fear.

I think it is entirely acceptable for it to be worn at football matches by whichever teams wish to wear it. As are other symbols that are about commemoration or doing good rather than harm - the pink ribbon, white ribbon, etc.

This whole argument and FIFA's decision, or not, or whatever, or consideration, is a joke. It only comes around once a year. If we are getting into excising 'political' symbols where does that leave many national football shirt badge emblems and national anthems? The main element of England's badge is the Plantagenet lion - which I guess represents English dominance in the British Isles, feudalism and skewering Frenchmen with arrows. Where does it leave 'Deutschland uber Alles' being sung at football matches?

No doubt there will be someone who will quote me shortly saying I have no sense of perspective, am a fascist, or there will someone on here who has done an Open University course in 'National emblem-ism' and pick me up on my points.

Thing is, I don't care. Wearing a poppy is about who I am and what other people have given up for me.

[Stive Pesley]

I don't know why the FA don't just get the decision over-ruled by following FIFA protocols and delivering a huge suitcase of cash to the Zurich offices

[LesterRam]

St Georges Day = Racist (RIP)

Union Jack = Racist (RIP)

Poppies = Racist (RIP)

Next ?

[Anon]

8 minutes ago, LesterRam said:

St Georges Day = Racist (RIP)

Union Jack = Racist (RIP)

Poppies = Racist (RIP)

Next ?

If they try and stop me drinking tea, they'll regret it.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

21 minutes ago, LesterRam said:

St Georges Day = Racist (RIP)

Union Jack = Racist (RIP)

Poppies = Racist (RIP)

Next ?

Nobody has said Poppies are racist unless you read the Daily Mail. The debate here is if they are a political symbol or not.

[Mostyn6]

 

[StringerBell]

55 minutes ago, LesterRam said:

St Georges Day = Racist (RIP)

Union Jack = Racist (RIP)

Poppies = Racist (RIP)

Next ?

You've just given me an idea. I might troll some regressive leftists and start saying the NHS is racist and represents colonialism or something. They love the NHS almost as much as they love calling people racist. The racists! 

[Leicester Ram]

On 1 November 2016 at 17:22, JaguarRam said:

Not to allow players to wear poppies is the most disgusting decision I have ever witnessed in football and puts me off the sport entirely. 

http://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/derby-countys-chris-martin-joins-fulham-on-a-season-long-loan-3285144.aspx

[WhiteHorseRam]

27 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

 

Interesting little clip (I love the fact that he is speaking so fast somebody thinks he needs subtitles).

I think the issue here is that we have allowed some ****** to try and politicize the poppy, and that what really needs flushing out. 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, StringerBell said:

You've just given me an idea. I might troll some regressive leftists and start saying the NHS is racist and represents colonialism or something. They love the NHS almost as much as they love calling people racist. The racists! 

You troll? Surely not!

[StringerBell]

30 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

You troll? Surely not!

Not on here really. Trolling is a public service though.

[RamNut]

I'd be quite impressed if we do defy fifa.

 

[McRamFan]

1 minute ago, RamNut said:

I'd be quite impressed if we do defy fifa.

 

I would be disappointed if we didn't.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Very sad it ended up this way, but I'm glad that the stance has been taken. 

I'd also point anyone interested in the history of the first world war towards the BBC series "the great war" its up on YouTube, it is in depth at 26 episodes, but the last episode "We Were Young" is entirely topical to rememberance. 

[StringerBell]

3 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Very sad it ended up this way, but I'm glad that the stance has been taken. 

I'd also point anyone interested in the history of the first world war towards the BBC series "the great war" its up on YouTube, it is in depth at 26 episodes, but the last episode "We Were Young" is entirely topical to rememberance. 

Dan Carlins podcast series Blueprint for Armageddon is a very good listen for anyone interested. 

http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-50-blueprint-for-armageddon-i/

 

[Rev]

Just change the roses on the England badge to poppies and no-one would notice.

[Gritstone Ram]

I think the FA have gone about this the wrong way.

If the FA had offered the FIFA officials a bribe of some sort there would be no problem.

[GboroRam]

43 minutes ago, Gritters said:

I think the FA have gone about this the wrong way.

If the FA had offered the FIFA officials a bribe of some sort there would be no problem.

Give them some money and both teams could dress up as poppies and FIFA would deny there was even a poppy on the pitch.

[Highgate]

Poppies, it's a tricky one, the tone always seems a little wrong to me.  Not that I'd have the slightest issue with people honouring and remembering those that have fallen in war.  They should never be forgotten, their courage when you think about it, was just awesome.  Brave beyond words, and I don't know of anyone who would criticize others for choosing to wear the poppy as a mark of respect. 

But what seems missing from all the remembrances and commemorations is the question, was their sacrifice necessary? Was it even their own choice?  There seems to be a common belief that all these fallen men, were not only brave but 'fighting for freedom'?  Surely not every side in a war can be actually fighting for freedom? Some must be mistake or have other motives.

WWII is an example when the Allies were fighting a just and necessary war, every Allied soldier was doing the right thing when they signed up.  WWI, in my opinion, is not such a war.  European Empires jostling for power, industrial killing on a never before seen scale. Empires tend not to be the champions of freedom. Young men, felt enormous pressure to risk their lives in an effort to kill for their flag. How is it that countries were so effective at persuading their male population that they had no choice but to join their cause.  And other neighbouring countries were just as effective at persuading very similar men to join the opposite cause.  How easily people are led!  Since 1900 has their been any war, apart from WWII, that was truly necessary? It's not always the right thing to do to put on your country's uniform and march to war, when it's political leaders tell you to do so. 

With all the understandable desire to not forget those who have fought for their country, missing I think is the question whether they should have been asked to do so in the first place.  Missing is the anger with the failed politics and self-important leaders that that led them to the killing fields.

Even so, I still hope that England get to wear their poppies on the shirt, it's clearly not offensive to anyone else, even if it means FIFA will have to decide on similar requests, on a case by case basis in the future.

[RadioactiveWaste]

23 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Poppies, it's a tricky one, the tone always seems a little wrong to me.  Not that I'd have the slightest issue with people honouring and remembering those that have fallen in war.  They should never be forgotten, their courage when you think about it, was just awesome.  Brave beyond words, and I don't know of anyone who would criticize others for choosing to wear the poppy as a mark of respect. 

But what seems missing from all the remembrances and commemorations is the question, was their sacrifice necessary? Was it even their own choice?  There seems to be a common belief that all these fallen men, were not only brave but 'fighting for freedom'?  Surely not every side in a war can be actually fighting for freedom? Some must be mistake or have other motives.

WWII is an example when the Allies were fighting a just and necessary war, every Allied soldier was doing the right thing when they signed up.  WWI, in my opinion, is not such a war.  European Empires jostling for power, industrial killing on a never before seen scale. Empires tend not to be the champions of freedom. Young men, felt enormous pressure to risk their lives in an effort to kill for their flag. How is it that countries were so effective at persuading their male population that they had no choice but to join their cause.  And other neighbouring countries were just as effective at persuading very similar men to join the opposite cause.  How easily people are led!  Since 1900 has their been any war, apart from WWII, that was truly necessary? It's not always the right thing to do to put on your country's uniform and march to war, when it's political leaders tell you to do so. 

With all the understandable desire to not forget those who have fought for their country, missing I think is the question whether they should have been asked to do so in the first place.  Missing is the anger with the failed politics and self-important leaders that that led them to the killing fields.

Even so, I still hope that England get to wear their poppies on the shirt, it's clearly not offensive to anyone else, even if it means FIFA will have to decide on similar requests, on a case by case basis in the future.

Great post.

I remember being taught that a large part of the meaning of "Lest we forget" was asking that exact question, and born out of a sense after the armistice, that such things must never be allowed to happen again.