Identity Crisis

[Inglorius]

6 minutes ago, eddie said:

Collective hive mind, Satty.

A bit like the Borg in Star Trek - we've all been assimilated.

(Assimilated - absorbed, digested)

Regardless of the merits or demerits of the persons arguments your replies come across as patronising, not everyone on here has the same intellect as you or is a widely read as yourself to be able to throw deliberately complex words into the conversation to highlight someone's ignorance.

[Mostyn6]

1 minute ago, dajstrawb said:

Pretty sure when a chairman interviews potential managers the managers outline their strategies and plans for the club. You can't tell me Pearson kept the 442 a secret from Mel the whole time and sprung it on him first game of the season?...... SURPRISE!

I doubt any manager would go into any interview suggesting he's so rigid and one-dimensional that only one potential way of playing will be on the menu!

I'd suggest the interviews would've been around philosophy, (ie. We will use pace and wing play, or, we will play possession based, or hoofball). and then thoughts on youth development and recruitment, but I doubt the intricacies of formation would come up.

[Sith Happens]

12 minutes ago, eddie said:

Collective hive mind, Satty.

A bit like the Borg in Star Trek - we've all been assimilated.

(Assimilated - absorbed, digested)

Maybe the players have, they certainly played liked mindless drones yesterday

 

[Stripperg-ram]

Just got back from a Sunday lunch with my brother in law. Who's a Man Utd fan.

He used an analogy (apparently paraphrasing Gary Neville about United) regarding our playing staff; saying that Derby are currently like various meals all on one plate.;

a bit of tikka masala, a little bit of lemon meringue pie., a big dollop of lasagne.

all individually wonderful, but make no sense together.

the result of various managers all with their own idea of what's right.

it needs one voice to get rid of the spam and get everyone into the mould of the eggs  Benedict. 

To be fare, we were both drunk, but maybe he's got a point.

but I still think Pearson, could do better, with the smorgasbord he has at his disposal, than he already has done so far...!!

[Inglorius]

1 minute ago, Stripperg-ram said:

Just got back from a Sunday lunch with my brother in law. Who's a Man Utd fan.

He used an analogy (apparently paraphrasing Gary Neville about United) regarding our playing staff; saying that Derby are currently like various meals all on one plate.;

a bit of tikka masala, a little bit of lemon meringue pie., a big dollop of lasagne.

all individually wonderful, but make no sense together.

the result of various managers all with their own idea of what's right.

it needs one voice to get rid of the spam and get everyone into the mould of the eggs  Benedict. 

To be fare, we were both drunk, but maybe he's got a point.

but I still think Pearson, could do better, with the smorgasbord he has at his disposal, than he already has done so far...!!

Are you on a diet perchance 

[Stripperg-ram]

11 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

Are you on a diet perchance 

Quite the opposite.

We ate freely and drank deeply.

and when all is said and done, we both concluded that Pearson is ******* up!!

Sack him 

Dont sack him 

Whatever.

But he's currently, massively underperforming.

 

 

 

 

p.s

 

the dauphinois were to die for...!!

[jagerbob]

Personally and maybe I am getting old and cynical here, I prefer a style, a structure and a club identity over success at all costs.

Which is why I was partly against the appointment of NP in the first place.

I thought our much maligned "derby way" was a good thing if it meant everyone from the 1st team down to all academy teams played with the same ethos and style. Southampton and Swansea are good models in my opinion.

[Bris Vegas]

Great opening post @Derbados

I've preached about identity and system for years, and we've most certainly moved away from that idea.

But it didn't start with Pearson, it started with the recruitment prior to Paul Clement's reign.

Recruitment is a massive part of any club identity. It really isn't difficult. You identify players who fit the profile of the club, and more importantly the player must have the right characteristics for the role in the team.

You only have to look at Southampton's squad which got promoted, to the one under Pochettino/Koeman/Puel to see how it has developed.

The play 4-3-3/4-2-3-1, or a variation of it, and with each passing year they buy the right players to improve position. They'd have probably finished in the top four by now had they managed to hold on to the players.

in 2011/12, Southampton we're in the Championship. Look how they've developed since then, and the players they have brought in for each position and how they've strengthened piece by piece each summer.

GK: Kelvin Davies, Artur Boruc, Fraser Forster

RB: Frazer Richardson, Nathaniel Clyne, Cedric Soares

CB: Jose Fonte

CB: Jos Hooiveld, Maya Yoshida, Dejan Lovren, Toby Alderweireld, Virgil van Dijk

LB: Danny Fox, Luke Shaw, Ryan Bertrand

DM: Morgan Schneiderlin, Victor Wanyama, Pierre-Emile Hojberg

CM: Jack Cork, (James Puncheon), Eljero Elia, Oriol Romeu, Jordi Clasie

CM: Dean Hammond, Steven Davis, 

LW: Adam Lallana, (Gaston Ramirez), Dusan Tadic

RW: Guilherme Do Prado, James Ward-Prowse, Sadio Mane, Nathan Redmond

ST: Rickie Lambert, Jay Rodriguez, Graziano Pelle, Shane Long,

You can see how Southampton's best XI has developed over the years, and that's without including a number of decent squad players who also fit the role of each position.

Over six years, Southampton's recruitment has been the same and year-on-year they've improved, regardless of losing managers such as Pochettino and Koeman and a number of top players.

Derby, in contrast, moved away from said plan in pretty much the opening transfer window. Players such as Bent, Baird, Weimann, Bradley Johnson and even Jason Shackell didn't fit the profile. Tom Ince is debatable (overpriced IMO), Pearce is an expensive back-up and Butterfield too.

Then came along Camara, Blackman and Olsson, of which only the latter you could argue has contributed. I'm convinced very little scouting was done on Camara... Don't get me started on Blackman.

And then after falling just short under Wassell, MM decided to abandon the 'Derby Way'altogether and go for the Pearson way (off the back of one promotion with Leicester, all done in compleely different circumstances to what he has here at Derby), and since then it has only been a disaster with seemingly no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Seth's left foot]

Unfortunately for NP he has been given the task of getting us promoted via his methods which will take time and a lot of changes which will always alienate many fans as we go through the transition.

The Derby way had me believing in a clear strategy that would allow the club to grow and prosper for many years to come and in turn made me laugh at that circus down the road. 

The Derby way needs to find its compass.

 

[SKRam]

11 hours ago, Derbados said:

I've just been watching Southampton put three past West Ham, hard to believe that not so long ago Southampton were languishing in League 1.

What they did after relegation was restructure and establish a brilliant working model at the club, they created a set way of doing things, not to be deviated from, the Manager and player fits the system, not the other way round. Some of the Mangers they have found are quite frankly astonishing, pochetino, Koeman and now Puel who has 4 wins on the bounce and looks to have transitioned into the role seamlessly, like those before him. At one point they were managerless but were still bringing in players like Shane Long, the club sill had a brain.  

Mel had tried to follow a similar model and initially I was very excited and pleased by the prospect, he had set a way of playing, had given the club an identity and a model not to be deviated from, it was wonderful. . . 

But then the worst thing happened, like the players Mel bottled it when it mattered most, he panicked. A couple of managerial issues and quite frankly, appauling recruitment decisions  made after significant investment, everybody convinced a better squad could have been assembled for half the money spent.

We now find ourselves completely off the tracks, an express train heading for the premier league that needed some minor maintenance to get it there now finds itself totally derailed and in disrepair. The model is forgotten, the panic button well and truly pressed. 

So how do we fix the train and get it back on the rails? simple, go back to the things that made it run in the first place, even if that means we have to expect long delays in the meantime. 

Come on Mel, stay strong, re find that model and stick to it, give us our identity back

you'll get us there eventually. 

As a train driver I enjoyed your analogy

[WhiteHorseRam]

The manager set's the tone alright. Look at Dyche at Burnley and most especially Klopp (although I think he is special).

[Ninos]

11 hours ago, eddie said:

The trouble is, Mel has been too keen to try to be 'Mr Popular' and do the fans' bidding. However, he failed to realise one important factor.

Fans are idiots, and we will change our collective gestalt (that's another word for you, @satty atwal) mind at the drop of a sausage.

Fans are and aren't idiots because not all fans want the same thing. As a whole though,Derby fans won't settle for bad football meaning long ball stuff - which is ironically what we are seeing now. The caveat is we would settle for it to get us into the premier league where we play the Derby way. (Yes I still believe in that) I think Derbados point stands : go back to the derby way, play the ball on the floor, attack but don't be dumb like mclaren, have no attacking idea like Clement or be tactically deficient and naive like Wassall. Pearson needs to upgrade his style of play and step up what he produces, or he should go. He doesn't seem to like Carson hoofing and poor distrubtion but our defence still hoofs. Even hoofing it into touch under mild pressure shouldn't be acceptable : how many times did Olsson do that last game? No to mention those high balls to Anya and Vydra that we just surrendered the ball. Go back to the original mission : to get us up but playing entertaining attractive attacking football on the floor with a dam counter press! Players move and get open and we go forward.

[G STAR RAM]

On 25/09/2016 at 20:34, Derbados said:

Mel has pressed it, 100%

He has totally deviated from the structure he put in place and swore he would stick by. The Head coach title whereby he individual coaches and develops the team following the structure and ethos dictated by the club has completely been removed. 

We now have a manager, who is in total control of the footballing side of things, formation, style of play etc. Nigel has said himself he likes to change every aspect of a club, just as he did at Leicester. 

That is a complete turnaround by Mel and the club of a structure and process that almost got us there, it just needed tinkering not blowing up! 

we we now find ourselves in the relegation zone having scored twice at home all season. Early days yet but I think it was a panicked decision and one that will bite us on the arse. 

Although i will say that I was 100% for Pearson coming in, it's just that I thought he would be given the same model to follow as the others, not completely destroy it.

 

Well this is a bit different to what you was saying back in April/May isn't it?

According to you back then, Pearson was the only logical choice but you didn't think Mel was clever enough to appoint him.

[Derbados]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well this is a bit different to what you was saying back in April/May isn't it?

According to you back then, Pearson was the only logical choice but you didn't think Mel was clever enough to appoint him.

Read the bottom of the post. . . You know, the bit where it says I was 100% for Pearson coming in. . . 

[G STAR RAM]

35 minutes ago, Derbados said:

Read the bottom of the post. . . You know, the bit where it says I was 100% for Pearson coming in. . . 

Read that bit, also read the bit where you say it was a panic decision.

How was it a panic decision if he was the only logical choice and he had already stated that he likes to have complete control over matters?

[SimonBHA]

You're in transition. Pearson wasn't and realistically never would be able to shape the squad into his mould in one transfer window. It looks like you're gonna suffer a bit in the meantime but if he's given time I'm sure he'll mould you into an effective Pearson side. Obviously a tough pill to swallow and he's probably tried to change too much to quickly.

[ipad1977]

Simon has it bob on. Sometimes a fan of another club looking in from the outside can see what is happening more clearly as the raw emotion from a club's own fans can cloud the issues.

At Boro we had the same period for around 10 to 12 games when SMac first arrived. Using Simon's own club as an example, their transition lasted the best part of a season in 14-15. Their play off finishes were put on hold till the season after.

Pearson is trying to mould the squad into a unit that can play his way at the moment. Understandably some won't be able to and others will be less willing. Expect him to act in the January window to bring in bodies who can fit in with the members of the current squad who can make the change.

You never know, by some chance things may suddenly click for a charge up the table towards the top six earlier this season, but I'd think it more likely that a second half of season drastic turnaround will occur, good result will suddenly follow good result and Derby will finish miles away from the relegation trapdoor, but more importantly with the spirit to launch a full scale assault on the promotion race next time around.

Provided Mel gives NP the time of course.

[TroyDyer]

I was for NP (despite not liking him personally) because I believe there is a cancer within our club (got loads of **** for saying that the other week but stand by it). I think there is a player clique of spoilt brats that throw their toys out the pram, and don't give enough for the cause.

How many times do we read "they wanted it more" after a defeat? It's been a constant for the last couple of years.

I thought NP would come in and let a bomb off in the clique. I thought the sale of Martin was the beginning of this. But now, having seen him not sign a ball winner in CM, and persevere with Keogh as captain and CD when he isn't a leader and is prone to game costing errors on a weekly basis.

Under Clement you could see the plan. It might not have been pretty and it might not have always come off, but you could see what he was trying to do. Maintaining possession, tight defensively, patient in build up, slow passing possession based football with pacey runners playing off a ball holding target man.  With NP I honestly can't see what he is trying to do. I am left scratching my head after most games now.

I honestly think that a defeat tonight will sign NPs death warrant. And maybe folks are right, another manager will come in and receive the same resistance from the clique. The players have a shed load to answer for, and I now have very little respect for any of them (Perhaps Hughes and Bryson and newbies aside).

[brady1993]

3 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

I was for NP (despite not liking him personally) because I believe there is a cancer within our club (got loads of **** for saying that the other week but stand by it). I think there is a player clique of spoilt brats that throw their toys out the pram, and don't give enough for the cause.

How many times do we read "they wanted it more" after a defeat? It's been a constant for the last couple of years.

I thought NP would come in and let a bomb off in the clique. I thought the sale of Martin was the beginning of this. But now, having seen him not sign a ball winner in CM, and persevere with Keogh as captain and CD when he isn't a leader and is prone to game costing errors on a weekly basis.

Under Clement you could see the plan. It might not have been pretty and it might not have always come off, but you could see what he was trying to do. Maintaining possession, tight defensively, patient in build up, slow passing possession based football with pacey runners playing off a ball holding target man.  With NP I honestly can't see what he is trying to do. I am left scratching my head after most games now.

I honestly think that a defeat tonight will sign NPs death warrant. And maybe folks are right, another manager will come in and receive the same resistance from the clique. The players have a shed load to answer for, and I now have very little respect for any of them (Perhaps Hughes and Bryson and newbies aside).

I don't agree with everything you've said but you're right if there was a clique it should have been gutted out. Pearson in the summer either needed to play to the squad's strengths or gut it and he's done neither. 

Your particularly spot on about Clement's tactics compared to NP.

[TroyDyer]

8 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I don't agree with everything you've said but you're right if there was a clique it should have been gutted out. Pearson in the summer either needed to play to the squad's strengths or gut it and he's done neither. 

Your particularly spot on about Clement's tactics compared to NP.

That's what shocked me. I honestly expected Pearson to gut the squad.