Day Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 @sage on the tall issue, we're actually one of the best teams in the league with aerial battles. Now I can't narrow this down to areas on the pitch, it's hard to see where this need to be taller argument is coming from when you see that, plus we play on average 8 long balls per game more than the club that plays the least and we're right up there with the best on short passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 46 minutes ago, brady1993 said: Your argument seems to be that it's down to the players to make the difference and to an extent I agree with you. However the correct system allows you to get more out of the collective because you play to the strengths of the players and cover their weakness. For example compare Barcelona before and after Guardiola took over. Largely the same players, however he tweaked the system and suddenly they go up another gear. Or take Iceland at the euros, they had a very clear tactical plan and it elevated a bunch of subpar individuals (at the world stage) to exceed expectations. I feel the players need to take a long hard look at themselves and not just since Pearson came in , I never thought wassell was the right man for the job and was open about that ( not in the nasty over the top way that some were) but that said there were times when these players really let him down , there were times they let Steve Mac down too, reading at home when only needing a draw was a disgrace , so ultimately they let us down but we have looked for excuses for those let downs,, whether it be macs Newcastle fiasco or wassells substitutions ,, now it's formation changes ,,, clough could have put burton out in any formation and they would stil have out worked ,beat us to every 50/50 ,won all the second balls ,, you are right though in terms of it not being all down to players,, managers play a vital part too but for me I just don't buy the idea we can only play 4/3/3, I have a bit of a theory in regards that under Mac he took the reins off to such a degree that although for a spell we were great to watch and winning players lost sight of their roles and resposabilities within the team defensively to such an extent that we now have players who blame anything but themselves,,, we all know we look fantastic when things go our way but have become increasingly less able to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps when things don't go our way,, s Mac must take a big slice of blame for us reaching this point ,,To my eyes Pearson is very much still on the first step of his job ,,demanding 100percent commitment from all and giving each player a role in the team and expecting them to take responsibility for fulfilling that role , we won't improve until the players either accept that or are replaced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 More stats, not aimed at you Sage! just found these interesting and thought I'd share, not really fair comparisons as such with us only being 8 games in this season but..... Long Balls 16/17 - 75 per game 15/16 - 73 per game 14/15 - 70 per game 13/14 - 69 per game Possession 16/17 - 52.4% 15/16 - 54% 14/15 - 55% 13/14 - 53.8% Pass Success 16/17 - 74.8% 15/16 - 78.1% 14/15 - 79.2% 13/14 - 79.1% Ariel Battles Won 16/17 - 22.9 15/16 - 19.8 14/15 - 17.9 13/14 - 20.7 Shots per game 16/17 - 13.8 15/16 - 14.3 14/15 - 13 13/14 - 15.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, David said: More stats, not aimed at you Sage! just found these interesting and thought I'd share, not really fair comparisons as such with us only being 8 games in this season but..... Long Balls 16/17 - 75 per game 15/16 - 73 per game 14/15 - 70 per game 13/14 - 69 per game Possession 16/17 - 52.4% 15/16 - 54% 14/15 - 55% 13/14 - 53.8% Pass Success 16/17 - 74.8% 15/16 - 78.1% 14/15 - 79.2% 13/14 - 79.1% Ariel Battles Won 16/17 - 22.9 15/16 - 19.8 14/15 - 17.9 13/14 - 20.7 Shots per game 16/17 - 13.8 15/16 - 14.3 14/15 - 13 13/14 - 15.1 I always think the distance covered by each individual player and team is a very telling stat. It then covers 'the strolling mercenary' and the miserable donut who stands with his hands on his hips while the young lad (who is actually trying) fails a Creuyff turn blundering into the opposition's defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Ram Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 8 hours ago, David said: Like any changes you make to a team, be it new signings, formation, style, tactics, sometimes it just clicks straight away, other times it can take longer to adjust. No magic wand in football. It's why new managers and the players must be given time and paitience to get it right. Ipswich and Bristol City were better performances, continue that against Blackburn with the result this time, confidence will creep back in and more results will follow with hopefully better football on the eye. Hiya Mel, just a quick heads up, I know you and David are big buddies and that but he ain't half gonna be cheesed off you've obtained his log in details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, archied said: I feel the players need to take a long hard look at themselves and not just since Pearson came in , I never thought wassell was the right man for the job and was open about that ( not in the nasty over the top way that some were) but that said there were times when these players really let him down , there were times they let Steve Mac down too, reading at home when only needing a draw was a disgrace , so ultimately they let us down but we have looked for excuses for those let downs,, whether it be macs Newcastle fiasco or wassells substitutions ,, now it's formation changes ,,, clough could have put burton out in any formation and they would stil have out worked ,beat us to every 50/50 ,won all the second balls ,, you are right though in terms of it not being all down to players,, managers play a vital part too but for me I just don't buy the idea we can only play 4/3/3, I have a bit of a theory in regards that under Mac he took the reins off to such a degree that although for a spell we were great to watch and winning players lost sight of their roles and resposabilities within the team defensively to such an extent that we now have players who blame anything but themselves,,, we all know we look fantastic when things go our way but have become increasingly less able to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps when things don't go our way,, s Mac must take a big slice of blame for us reaching this point ,,To my eyes Pearson is very much still on the first step of his job ,,demanding 100percent commitment from all and giving each player a role in the team and expecting them to take responsibility for fulfilling that role , we won't improve until the players either accept that or are replaced Reading at home was a dark day but I don't think it was down to players not putting in the effort or wanting. To me that was just a culmination of the previous few months where the season was completely derailed due to injuries and Mac's (perhaps forced) tinkering of the defence. I disagree about your point with Burton, I believe that result came about because they a had very clear system with players suited to each role and you can tell the Burton players knew it and gained confidence from it. In contrast this was the 4th different formation of the season for Derby and we played two attacking midfielders as defensive midfielders. It's bound to knock the confidence of player if he is being asked to perform a role that he doesn't think he's capable of. Also I suspect most of the squad had an inkling Martin was going to be let go and yet was starting!!! Rightly or wrongly many of them were perhaps worried whether they'd be out of the door too. I do agree that we have the players to play more than just a 433 but the formation, system and the tactics have to get the most of the squad, and I highly doubt that a counter attacking 442 with two strikers playing on the shoulder is the way to go. Mac's 433 was highly effective both offensively and defensively, it was only undone when we lost Eustace, Mascarell, Buxton, Martin and Bent all in the space of two weeks. Regarding your final point, I think we won't improve till either Pearson plays to the strengths of the players, a new man comes in or Pearson completely rebuilds the squad (which would take years and is far from forced to work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 14 minutes ago, EastHertsRam said: Hiya Mel, just a quick heads up, I know you and David are big buddies Another myth right there! Outgoing emails per season 16/17 - Mel 2, David 2 15/16 - Mel 11 David 13 15/16 Moor Farm trips organised, 16/17 Mel letting me know that he no longer visits the forum. I can also confirm that I have only met him twice along with a group of forum members. Debunked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, David said: Another myth right there! Outgoing emails per season 16/17 - Mel 2, David 2 15/16 - Mel 11 David 13 15/16 Moor Farm trips organised, 16/17 Mel letting me know that he no longer visits the forum. I can also confirm that I have only met him twice along with a group of forum members. Debunked! Whiffs of a Prepared Statement ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, David said: Another myth right there! Outgoing emails per season 16/17 - Mel 2, David 2 15/16 - Mel 11 David 13 15/16 Moor Farm trips organised, 16/17 Mel letting me know that he no longer visits the forum. I can also confirm that I have only met him twice along with a group of forum members. Debunked! Mel no longer visits the forum ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 minute ago, WhiteHorseRam said: Whiffs of a Prepared Statement ......... No statements! Just now, curtains said: Mel no longer visits the forum ? Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Just now, David said: No statements! Nope That's a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyram1983 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 10 hours ago, David said: Never truer words spoken and I could not agree more with Mr Butterfield. The adjustment period can be frustrating when you're paying good money to watch and travel in some cases, I feel it in my pocket as well, but this is great to hear from a player when I often read on this forum that 4-3-3 is the only way. Good footballers can adapt, yes they do. I love all this talk. Just do it then. Who are the good footballers that can adapt then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 16 minutes ago, brady1993 said: Reading at home was a dark day but I don't think it was down to players not putting in the effort or wanting. To me that was just a culmination of the previous few months where the season was completely derailed due to injuries and Mac's (perhaps forced) tinkering of the defence. I disagree about your point with Burton, I believe that result came about because they a had very clear system with players suited to each role and you can tell the Burton players knew it and gained confidence from it. In contrast this was the 4th different formation of the season for Derby and we played two attacking midfielders as defensive midfielders. It's bound to knock the confidence of player if he is being asked to perform a role that he doesn't think he's capable of. Also I suspect most of the squad had an inkling Martin was going to be let go and yet was starting!!! Rightly or wrongly many of them were perhaps worried whether they'd be out of the door too. I do agree that we have the players to play more than just a 433 but the formation, system and the tactics have to get the most of the squad, and I highly doubt that a counter attacking 442 with two strikers playing on the shoulder is the way to go. Mac's 433 was highly effective both offensively and defensively, it was only undone when we lost Eustace, Mascarell, Buxton, Martin and Bent all in the space of two weeks. Regarding your final point, I think we won't improve till either Pearson plays to the strengths of the players, a new man comes in or Pearson completely rebuilds the squad (which would take years and is far from forced to work). There are some fair points in your post but for me bringing a manager in to suit any current crop of players is a route to disaster ,, you say macs 4/3/3 was working then list the loss of bent to injury as one of the contributing factors when most would scream from the cliff tops that bent is no good in that formation and the ball just comes back , I read all the round peg square hole posts with everybody claiming players like ince are best on the wing or best as a number ten or best through the middle,, Russell is a striker not a winger , the list goes on and on but take ince he s had a run at all those positions and still totally inconsistent ,,, if we have to go back to basics and rebuild a squad that for whatever reason has been losing its way since the qpr loss I will accept that , for me the biggest mistake was Paul clement appointment because I believe a good experienced coach that the fans and Mel fully trusted could have built on what we had then but I think last seasons chaos and recruitment of players tipped the balance and a lot was lost making the job now much bigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, archied said: There are some fair points in your post but for me bringing a manager in to suit any current crop of players is a route to disaster ,, you say macs 4/3/3 was working then list the loss of bent to injury as one of the contributing factors when most would scream from the cliff tops that bent is no good in that formation and the ball just comes back , I read all the round peg square hole posts with everybody claiming players like ince are best on the wing or best as a number ten or best through the middle,, Russell is a striker not a winger , the list goes on and on but take ince he s had a run at all those positions and still totally inconsistent ,,, if we have to go back to basics and rebuild a squad that for whatever reason has been losing its way since the qpr loss I will accept that , for me the biggest mistake was Paul clement appointment because I believe a good experienced coach that the fans and Mel fully trusted could have built on what we had then but I think last seasons chaos and recruitment of players tipped the balance and a lot was lost making the job now much bigger Your starting point regarding bringing in a manager to suit set players being a disaster and your final point regarding bringing a coach that could have built on what we had instead of Clement are contradictory. Or have I misunderstood your argument? Either way I entirely disagree with your first point. To me if you have a fairly successful group of players with a fairly successful system (I'm taking about Mac's system, that Wassell later tried to imitate and not Clement's) you bring in a manager who will suit that style or a similar style, so that he can tweak the side for better success rather than completely overhauling. Haha your right about Bent, he wasn't really suited that system however might point we had a significant loss of players in a short period of time that destabilised the season. I agree about Ince being inconsistent and it can be frustrating but if he wasn't inconsistent he wouldn't be playing in the championship. I agree regarding your points on clement and recruitment but I feel this has been compounded with the bigger mistake of hiring Pearson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Yes footballers should be able to adopt to different systems but in the world of professional football where margins are fine surely putting round pegs in round holes is the best way forward. I believe leicesters success was very much helped by having a very well balanced team and players playing in a team and formation that suited them. For 3 years we've spent considerable amounts of money acquiring players to play in a 4-3-3. Wingers that are more winger/strikers, full backs that prefer attacking to defending and midfielders that are suited to AM or CDM. Moving to 4-4-2 really is a big change to this. None of our wingers are suited to this style. Particularly Ince who we paid 5m for. The centre midfielder we sold is arguably best suited to a 4-4-2 in Hendrick. The fact we started the season having done no transfer business whatsoever when we wanted to significantly change a formation that we'd played for 3 years was stupid. All of a sudden our midfield which was described as the best in the division now looks one of the worst and I don't think that's because a group of 12 players have suddenly got worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 hour ago, brady1993 said: Your starting point regarding bringing in a manager to suit set players being a disaster and your final point regarding bringing a coach that could have built on what we had instead of Clement are contradictory. Or have I misunderstood your argument? Either way I entirely disagree with your first point. To me if you have a fairly successful group of players with a fairly successful system (I'm taking about Mac's system, that Wassell later tried to imitate and not Clement's) you bring in a manager who will suit that style or a similar style, so that he can tweak the side for better success rather than completely overhauling. Haha your right about Bent, he wasn't really suited that system however might point we had a significant loss of players in a short period of time that destabilised the season. I agree about Ince being inconsistent and it can be frustrating but if he wasn't inconsistent he wouldn't be playing in the championship. I agree regarding your points on clement and recruitment but I feel this has been compounded with the bigger mistake of hiring Pearson. With the first point I did nt mean it had to be someone who stuck rigidly to the formation / system what I meant was a coach / manager who would grab / keep the players attention ,trust and respect , I think that's what happened with Steve Mac when he came in and even though we had started to decline from the standards of mechs first season I do think there was enough spirit and raised self belief / confidence around our squad to build on and from it ,, for me we found a kind of lucky collision between the group of hungry players that clough sourced and put together with a team spirit that then collided with s Mac who coached them well and got more from them and managed to get some good loan players in in the form of Ibe and wisdom but for whatever reason it was starting to decline ,, then clement ,, for me the major mistake , hardly universally trusted by the fans , I doubt by the players and as the early sacking showed not fully by Mel , at that point a good coach with a decent track record may have been able to make changes and the players fans and Mel get on board fully with it but not a total novice , I believe last season took us too far away from being able to build on the good things that were produced from the clough / Mac collision ,,, we have an unbounded squad that's lost its way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Of course they can adapt, well at least they should be able to. But without any sort of system or game plan to adapt to, how can we expect them to play well- they can't adapt to something that isn't there. Unless of course Pearson does have a proper plan and the players simply aren't showing it on the pitch, that would be a different story altogether... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967Ram Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Players can adapt - agreed. However, any GOOD manager would play a formation/system which suited his players. NP hasn't done this so my assumption is he isn't a good manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Of course they can adapt, well at least they should be able to. But without any sort of system or game plan to adapt to, how can we expect them to play well- they can't adapt to something that isn't there. Unless of course Pearson does have a proper plan and the players simply aren't showing it on the pitch, that would be a different story altogether... I think for me, the players need to have confidence in the manager and belief in his instructions. Adaptability comes from these basic beliefs. The greater the difference in what a player is being asked to do to what he is used to, then the greater the belief needed. Unfortunately, good results breeds belief. It's a kind of amplification mechanism. We're currently in a place I feel, where the players have dwindling belief in pearsons instructions and thiwill continue until such instructions can be shown to have a positive impact on performance and hence results. Mac got immediate positivity. Ipswich 2nd half then Watford soon after. Pearson has not been as fortunate in his impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 On the subject of NP. He's basically changed the front 3 for new guys. And one of those isnt very good. Derbys recruitment policy and quality of signings since george Thorne signed permanently has been pretty abysmal. Whilst i am no fan of pearson and definately not a fan of how he is trying to play. he is paying the price through no fault of his own of us having a lack of different types of players with lack of Quality. Ince Blackman, Bent have all been letdowns. Derby had 5 decent CMs none of which could play the DM role very well at all. Shocking!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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