sage Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Last night's game reminded me of our disastrous end to last season. Disjointed, desperate and deflated. As with last year we seem to have got to a great position playing in a certain way with certain formation. then changed everything to.suit new arrivals/replace injured players. Which leads me to Ince. Whilst he was dreadful yesterday, this isn't an attack on him, just pondering whether our desire to fir him in the side where he may be more effective, is hurting the rest of the team. As soon as I saw Johnson and Butterfield in midfield with 4 forwards in front of him, I knew we'd lose the midfield and possibly the game. After holding Boro at bay for 75 minutes we switched to 4-2-3-1 and it all fell apart. So I was surprised and disappointed see us play this formation in our next league game. It makes Martin and Johnson less effective and the whole defence starts to get pulled out of position. Obviously Thorne being out influenced this decision but Hendrick could have started and I'd even prefer Baird to play DCM if it allowed others to play. Hopefully the matter and our dip in form will be resolved on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Think you're being entirely unfair on him. He wasn't even in the top 5 of worst performances yesterday, and it's not exactly his fault if that is where he's asked to play. Part of the reason it didn't work was Johnson's inability to stick to his position, often leaving Butterfield by himself to try and stop the whole attack in the middle whenever our play broke down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgoodspeak Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Not sure on the Ince point, other than last night I'm starting to come round to the opinion that he'e better down the middle. But then I'm sick of that being the case for everyone. We hear the same about Russell, Weimann and now Blackman! Doesn't anyone want to play wide? Totally agree on midfield. For saying Clement supposedly has eight full time analysts assessing the opposition I think they totally underestimated Reading last night. They had a free ride in Midfield. I don't want to see Butterfield winning the ball, I want him pulling the strings further forward. Can you afford him in a midfield of two if you're playing Ince down the middle? No. I said to my mate at half-time that I'd have taken Martin off for Baird, putting him as DCM and Blackman through the middle. I didn't see the point of a "like" for "like" swap of Hendrick for Johnson, even though he was having a shocker. Change the plan first, then the personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsley ram Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 ince is wasted out on the wing when we played wolves he caused big problems through the middle assisted by bent i honestly think bent should be given a few games to get match fit instead of being subbed all the time why not give him time to find his level which is ex england international 200 career goals most of them at top level why keep him on the bench ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 46 minutes ago, drgoodspeak said: Not sure on the Ince point, other than last night I'm starting to come round to the opinion that he'e better down the middle. But then I'm sick of that being the case for everyone. We hear the same about Russell, Weimann and now Blackman! Doesn't anyone want to play wide? Totally agree on midfield. For saying Clement supposedly has eight full time analysts assessing the opposition I think they totally underestimated Reading last night. They had a free ride in Midfield. I don't want to see Butterfield winning the ball, I want him pulling the strings further forward. Can you afford him in a midfield of two if you're playing Ince down the middle? No. I said to my mate at half-time that I'd have taken Martin off for Baird, putting him as DCM and Blackman through the middle. I didn't see the point of a "like" for "like" swap of Hendrick for Johnson, even though he was having a shocker. Change the plan first, then the personnel. This is a good point. We very rarely seem to do this within a game. MK Dons away was about the only one that springs to mind which had a positive outcome for us. After all of the leeway given early season as PC tried various formations 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-2-1-2 etc..... we still seem to lack the ability to respond structurally to what we see the opposition do if our analysts estimates are not being borne out in practice. The longer this goes on the more it becomes a (game) management failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgoodspeak Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Following a highly scientific scan through the previous results page of the programme, it seemed that he'd not made a tactical sub any earlier than the 74th minute. Of course I could be wrong and it didn't include last night's subs, but it was a thought I had that I went looking to support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Ince playing in the hole behind Martin showed promise. As in PROMISE YOU WILL NEVER TRY THIS EXPERIMENT AGAIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIWY Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Didn't think Ince was too bad last night. A lot of stuff didn't come off for him, but it did look as though if anyone was going to do something last night it would be him. Also he put in a good contribution closing down and tracking back (when he was put back out wide). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsley ram Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 the way martins playing at the moment you could put iniesta in the hole it still wouldnt make any difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 What are you talking about, as we all know he is the man of the match in every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 We're second in the league, so clearly there is no disaster - any criticisms have to be taken in that context. However, we're not running away with the league despite spending huge amounts and our football for the last ten months has never quite appeared to 'click'. Only a fool would think that we're doing badly, but only the most deluded of fans would consider that we can't improve. It is my opinion that Martin and Ince don't work well in the same side. Both are capable of being brilliant, but both require a team that is designed to play to their strengths. I'm not sure which one I'd drop if it were my decision. Martin means playing 433 which is now steady, but lots of teams have worked out how to counter it so I reckon that it means play-offs, which is the safe option. Ince offers more flexibility, so building a team around him offers the chance to find a system that might take us up automatically, but most times we've played a different system we've struggled, so there is the possibility of finishing outside the top six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 1 hour ago, sage said: Last night's game reminded me of our disastrous end to last season. Disjointed, desperate and deflated. As with last year we seem to have got to a great position playing in a certain way with certain formation. then changed everything to.suit new arrivals/replace injured players. Which leads me to Ince. Whilst he was dreadful yesterday, this isn't an attack on him, just pondering whether our desire to fir him in the side where he may be more effective, is hurting the rest of the team. As soon as I saw Johnson and Butterfield in midfield with 4 forwards in front of him, I knew we'd lose the midfield and possibly the game. After holding Boro at bay for 75 minutes we switched to 4-2-3-1 and it all fell apart. So I was surprised and disappointed see us play this formation in our next league game. It makes Martin and Johnson less effective and the whole defence starts to get pulled out of position. Obviously Thorne being out influenced this decision but Hendrick could have started and I'd even prefer Baird to play DCM if it allowed others to play. Hopefully the matter and our dip in form will be resolved on Saturday. Excellent post sage. I cannot see it being solved by the time we have played Man Utd and the penny has dropped. This team should play 433 with the best players in each position and make whatever changes are needed at HT or after 60 minutes. I could see the same problem as you did after three minutes and pointed it out. We stuck with it for most of the match and did well to get a point. It was not an attitude problem but a formation and form problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHomunculusLives Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, SIWY said: Didn't think Ince was too bad last night. A lot of stuff didn't come off for him, but it did look as though if anyone was going to do something last night it would be him. Also he put in a good contribution closing down and tracking back (when he was put back out wide). Ince is a game changer - he has the ability to win matches with his pace and flair. Camara and/or Blackman may be in a similar category and give us more options, but until we know that for sure then Ince has to play every week for me. I don't think we can have a whole team of honest triers like Russell - we need at least one player with more mercurial qualities too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossieram Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Ince worked harder than most last night and if there is a positive to take from the game, it was his tracking back and work rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsdubs Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Ince did all he could in a team miles off it. He wants the ball at feet running at the back four, never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 In the first half he was stood alongside and higher up than Martin while Johnson and Butterfield were overloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgford Ram Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Ince was one of the few putting effort in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robster1 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 8 hours ago, barnsley ram said: ince is wasted out on the wing when we played wolves he caused big problems through the middle assisted by bent i honestly think bent should be given a few games to get match fit instead of being subbed all the time why not give him time to find his level which is ex england international 200 career goals most of them at top level why keep him on the bench ? Are you B4 in disguise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robster1 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 7 hours ago, Rampage said: Excellent post sage. I cannot see it being solved by the time we have played Man Utd and the penny has dropped. This team should play 433 with the best players in each position and make whatever changes are needed at HT or after 60 minutes. I could see the same problem as you did after three minutes and pointed it out. We stuck with it for most of the match and did well to get a point. It was not an attitude problem but a formation and form problem. Agree completely with this. Go back to what we do best, 433 with Martin the focal point. The new guys will have to challenge for the wide berths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 also anyone noticed Bradley johnson has gone completely off the boil since he was asked to play a more disciplined defensive role. When he arrived he really was part of the 4-3-3 getting as much forward as back. Infact the first time he wasnt his usual self was the first time he had to cover for a thorne injury (QPR game i think) But since the Brighton game onwards, he has been blatently playing alongside thorne and not getting any further forward. despite every rams fan, this forum, and craig ramage claiming we play 4-3-3-, its been a 4231 or 4213 for a while now. Derby do not control a midfield when one of throne or hughes isnt in the side. They are our 2 playmakers, and we struggle to get going when they are not in the side. WE need to play baird and someone who can play defensive midifield who can get us passing and moving such as hughes or thorne. Bradley johnson does a better job than the rest in a defensive role, but it is taking away from what he is good at. None of these : Bryson Butterfield, Hendrick Johnson Hughes are really disciplined to play a holding role, our midfield balance is all wrong. The sooner Clement realises this the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.