Is clement up to the job

[Cisse]

Sacking Clement before Christmas (no matter where we are) would be a disaster. We all like decisive management but he needs a proper go at it. Full season, at least.

You think fans will give him that time ?

[ronnieronalde]

Clough  - win rate 33% year after year, simply not good enough . Dross football . Negative attitude in those first 9 games are what cost him ,since it showed things were never going to change with him . Then he proved these were his real qualities by repeating it all at Sheff Utd. In my 50 years plus watching Derby, N Clough was one of the worst managers and there has been some competition.

See it's that kind of post that makes ME look confrontational and argumentative, just because I respond.

What was Derby's win rate in the two season before he rescued them?

If you've been watching for 50 years, you'll remember that quite well?

The manager before Clough had a nervous breakdown and left the club a broken man. He'd won 7 out of 26 games with a squad that cost you best part of 30m quid to assemble and pay.

The manager before him didn't win a game for a season and turned the club into the laughing stock of the country football wise.

Yet here you are saying Clement needs time, all he's got to do is turn around a squad who narrowly missed out on promotion, then a squad that narrowly missed out on the play offs, and they've spent 21m hard cash to help him do it.

The fact that you say NC was one of the worst managers for 50 years shows where you're coming from.

This is the clubs history for the bad times of those 50 years you've been watching.

66/67 – finished 17th in Div 2

67/68 – 18th

Then you landed on your feet for a while hiring Brian Clough who brought with him Peter Taylor and Dave Mackay.

Then it went belly up.

78/79 – 19th

79/80 – 20th and relegated 

83/84 – 20th and relegated to division 3.

90/91 – 20th and relegated. 

91/96 - a very good spell.

2000/01 – 17th

01/02 – 20th and relegated

03/04 – 20th in The Championship

05/06 – 20th in the Championship

07/08  - 20th in the Premier League and relegated winning just one game

08/09 – sitting in 18th having won 7 games out of 25!!!

You've had 18 managers who've managed for more than 15 games in that time.

These include Colin Murphy, Tommy Docherty, Colin Addison, John Newman, Peter Taylor (sorry Pete), Colin Todd, John Gregory, Phil Brown and Paul Jewell all of whom have a lower win % than Nigel Clough, I'd have to throw Billy Davies into the mix as well cos of his last season where he single handedly destroyed the club and left a mess that took 5 years to clear up.

Still, you carry on telling me I'm deluded and am showing blind faith to Nigel, one of the worst managers YOU'VE seen in your 50 years watching the Rams.

And then he repeated it all at Sheffield United where his win rate was 47% and I'm the biased one?

 

[RLACML]

You think fans will give him that time ?

No, clearly not. I hope the club are sensible enough to ignore them though.

Edit: Not that I see us struggling anyway.

[eddie]

Some good points, Ronnie, but some erroneous points - however, as you are not a Derby fan, you are excused.

For all Billy Davies's faults, he did not manage Derby for a year without a win - he managed them for eight games without a win, following the victory over Newcastle through to the defeat against Chelsea.

Paul Jewell then managed Derby for a further 28 league games before achieving his first victory.

[ronnieronalde]

Some good points, Ronnie, but some erroneous points - however, as you are not a Derby fan, you are excused.

For all Billy Davies's faults, he did not manage Derby for a year without a win - he managed them for eight games without a win, following the victory over Newcastle through to the defeat against Chelsea.

Paul Jewell then managed Derby for a further 28 league games before achieving his first victory.

Thanks for putting me right Eddie.

My Derby County history might be a bit patchy where the Davies and Jewell cross over is concerned because I disliked what they both did to the club before they left so tried to wipe it out.

Billy should come off the worst managers list I wrote then.

He'd stand right at the top of the biggest shithouse list though :-)

[eddie]

Thanks for putting me right Eddie.

My Derby County history might be a bit patchy where the Davies and Jewell cross over is concerned because I disliked what they both did to the club before they left so tried to wipe it out.

Billy should come off the worst managers list I wrote then.

He'd stand right at the top of the biggest shithouse list though :-)

Agreed on both counts. I have tried to erase both from my memory, but it doesn't work. Nothing that Clement does - or fails to do - will ever be below those two on the embarrassment scale.

[Ovis aries]

 

 

 

 deleted

[Ovis aries]

Agreed on both counts. I have tried to erase both from my memory, but it doesn't work. Nothing that Clement does - or fails to do - will ever be below those two on the embarrassment scale.

He still has time.

[twinkletoes]

still no.....

[curb]

The thing is Ronnie, what jumps out at me in your post above, is the word YOU.

'cost YOU 30m'

'YOU landed on your feet'

'YOU'VE had 18 managers'

Yes this is our club, a club I've watched for 45 years, through all those **** managers , and some average managers, and some great ones (OK one great one), and while my love for the club was cemented by Brian, it was always the club, not the manager. Whenhe left someone else came in, and I carried on watching the club I love, despite all the success that manager had elsewhere while we were going to Shrewsbury and Darlington, Lincoln and Grimsby.

So when someone comes along and criticises everything about the club, no matter whether their intentions are honourable, we're going to defend our club no matter what.

if someone started slagging my mrs of 30 years off in the pub I'd do exactly the same.

No matter whether your points are sometimes correct or not, you'll always be wrong to slag my club off.

 

[Derby_Dave]

Your Well See it's that kind of post that makes ME look confrontational and argumentative, just because I respond.

What was Derby's win rate in the two season before he rescued them?

If you've been watching for 50 years, you'll remember that quite well?

The manager before Clough had a nervous breakdown and left the club a broken man. He'd won 7 out of 26 games with a squad that cost you best part of 30m quid to assemble and pay.

The manager before him didn't win a game for a season and turned the club into the laughing stock of the country football wise.

Yet here you are saying Clement needs time, all he's got to do is turn around a squad who narrowly missed out on promotion, then a squad that narrowly missed out on the play offs, and they've spent 21m hard cash to help him do it.

The fact that you say NC was one of the worst managers for 50 years shows where you're coming from.

This is the clubs history for the bad times of those 50 years you've been watching.

66/67 – finished 17th in Div 2

67/68 – 18th

Then you landed on your feet for a while hiring Brian Clough who brought with him Peter Taylor and Dave Mackay.

Then it went belly up.

78/79 – 19th

79/80 – 20th and relegated 

83/84 – 20th and relegated to division 3.

90/91 – 20th and relegated. 

91/96 - a very good spell.

2000/01 – 17th

01/02 – 20th and relegated

03/04 – 20th in The Championship

05/06 – 20th in the Championship

07/08  - 20th in the Premier League and relegated winning just one game

08/09 – sitting in 18th having won 7 games out of 25!!!

You've had 18 managers who've managed for more than 15 games in that time.

These include Colin Murphy, Tommy Docherty, Colin Addison, John Newman, Peter Taylor (sorry Pete), Colin Todd, John Gregory, Phil Brown and Paul Jewell all of whom have a lower win % than Nigel Clough, I'd have to throw Billy Davies into the mix as well cos of his last season where he single handedly destroyed the club and left a mess that took 5 years to clear up.

Still, you carry on telling me I'm deluded and am showing blind faith to Nigel, one of the worst managers YOU'VE seen in your 50 years watching the Rams.

And then he repeated it all at Sheffield United where his win rate was 47% and I'm the biased one?

 

I do not agree with everything you say but I certainly agree with this summary.

Although your use of the word you in line 11 is a  little concerning! ?

 

 

[TheDeadlySaul]

 

Still, you carry on telling me I'm deluded and am showing blind faith to Nigel, one of the worst managers YOU'VE seen in your 50 years watching the Rams.

And then he repeated it all at Sheffield United where his win rate was 47% and I'm the biased one?

 

Do you think that McClaren should have been sacked? 

[i-Ram]

Just had an hour reading this thread. All very depressing really, but can't say I am surprised with a good number of comments. I have thought for the last 25 years that we have some of the most fickle fans in the Country. 

I did have a wry smile to myself when PC first arrived at the club and one of the reasons he gave coming to our great club was its great fan base. I hope despite everything else he is currently having to contend with he does find an hour to read this thread too. Should at least make him realise that a large number of "fans" think support is only to be offered when we are winning.

It was a big risk appointing PC but Mel the businessman made HIS decision, and Mel was always going to support HIS man. It is just as important for Mel, as it is for PC, that PC succeeds. Even before today there was no way PC was leaving in a few games time, irrespective of results; he would ALWAYS have been given plenty of time. The purchases today IMO reinforce that Mel stands four square behind his man.  Whilst he has made a few odd calls so far, PC seems to me to have stabilised our defensive frailties, such that we look much more secure and have only been beaten in one league game.  He has had chronic bad luck in midfield where he has been dependent on effectively an 80% fit George Thorne - losing Hughes and Bryson was a big big loss in the first 30 minutes of his first season.  Being a good coach PC will have also quickly identified that some of our established players aren't really that great - I am not being fickle here, just a realist. I support all our players in the flesh, but a good number are mid-table championship players (go figure). The new players brought in are yet to settle, but I think overall everyone "new" is a better player than the one directly replaced. Like PC they need a bit of time to settle - it takes much longer than 5 league games to get a team gelling together.  

On balance I expected us to be at about 7 points by now; we could easily of been, but the fact we aren't is really no reason for mass panic and hysteria.  The purchases today are very good - said a month ago that we were two GOOD midfielders short and now that has been addressed - it would be great if we can add a fit Bryson to the selection mix too. Now, if we can keep Martin on his feet and Weimann/Russell holding on to the ball a little better we and PC will be perfectly fine. Not expecting too much in terms of style from the next couple of games in truth, but a win will change the dynamic, and we will make steady progress up the league as we head towards Christmas that is for sure. Come December, if we are still under-achieving then Mel might have a lot more to think about, but personally I don't think he need worry too much.

[ronnieronalde]

Do you think that McClaren should have been sacked? 

Based on results?  No.

[JAT]

The aim for the season is promotion so I should imagine the owners will keep going in the same direction, unless this no longer seems possible under the current coaching staff.

Clement has had a pretty **** start to the season, no doubt. But as we all know the Championship always has twists and turns. We only need to be in the top two for one day... the last day!

I do believe that it will come good under Clement. No stats or inside knowledge to back this up, just faith.

[ronnieronalde]

The thing is Ronnie, what jumps out at me in your post above, is the word YOU.

'cost YOU 30m'

'YOU landed on your feet'

'YOU'VE had 18 managers'

Yes this is our club, a club I've watched for 45 years, through all those **** managers , and some average managers, and some great ones (OK one great one), and while my love for the club was cemented by Brian, it was always the club, not the manager. Whenhe left someone else came in, and I carried on watching the club I love, despite all the success that manager had elsewhere while we were going to Shrewsbury and Darlington, Lincoln and Grimsby.

So when someone comes along and criticises everything about the club, no matter whether their intentions are honourable, we're going to defend our club no matter what.

if someone started slagging my mrs of 30 years off in the pub I'd do exactly the same.

No matter whether your points are sometimes correct or not, you'll always be wrong to slag my club off.

 

and if someone starts slagging off someone I've loved for 30 years? what would you like me to do?

I'm not slagging off your CLUB, I never have and i never will. I've certainly never criricised every aspect of your club, I spent a long time defending it while you weren't so proud of what was going on. 

I'm slagging off (if you must call it that) individuals at YOUR club, I think even you've done that from time to time. I certainly remember quite a bit of slagging before McClaren came in.

No matter if your points are sometimes correct or not, you'll always be wrong to slag Derby County off. Just cos you're a fan of 45 years doesn't change the fact you slagged them off a lot when I didn't and wouldn't.

I'd wager you've had periods in your clubs history where you haven't always liked the people running the club, managers or dodgy owners.

I'm at that stage now, that's all, there's no difference. 

There will be times in the future where I'm 100% happy with everything that's going on and I'll be positively glowing in my praise.

[eddie]

I think you've forfeited the right to have anybody care whether you are 100% happy or not, Ronnie.

[ronnieronalde]

I think you've forfeited the right to have anybody care whether you are 100% happy or not, Ronnie.

Forfeited or not @eddie, in your eyes I must surely be a difficult one to pin down. I struggle to get behind your CEO but have always been 100% behind the playing side and am still firmly behind the majority of your ownership group.

Not quite a half fan cos I haven't supported you for my whole life, but a better fan than those who boo their own but follow you home and away.

Do you know where I've spent my football money this season? I've spent it so i can come to watch Derby. I've even paid for a season ticket even though I can't get to many games.

That's despite the fact I live less than one minutes walking distance from the City Ground.

Do you know how many times I've booed a Derby player? Never, not once in my life. 

Terrible less than half fan that I am. Can we settle on me being a quarter fan? 

That means three in four times you can have a go, but the other 25% we've got to be buddies :-)

Deal?

[Ninos]

2 points on previous posts :

 i/Rams post regarding PC is really very good and they should put it in the derby telegraph ! I would say that a quick change in captaincy (shacks) could actually help and I'd reinstate Christie to give us that attacking flair at fullback again. 

Ronnies comment that he would have kept sM based on results doesn't ring true for me in the slightest. The results after Xmas were atrocious and that reading result needing just a draw was beyond atrocious as was the wembley result where you're a man up. sM could get us to play pretty but he couldn't get key game results for the life of him. PC has time to prove he can get results even though he's struggled to do so so far. 

[ronnieronalde]

2 points on previous posts :

 i/Rams post regarding PC is really very good and they should put it in the derby telegraph ! I would say that a quick change in captaincy (shacks) could actually help and I'd reinstate Christie to give us that attacking flair at fullback again. 

Ronnies comment that he would have kept sM based on results doesn't ring true for me in the slightest. The results after Xmas were atrocious and that reading result needing just a draw was beyond atrocious as was the wembley result where you're a man up. sM could get us to play pretty but he couldn't get key game results for the life of him. PC has time to prove he can get results even though he's struggled to do so so far. 

Good post. I'm fast enough to say when I don't like someone's opinion, @Ninos, so as far as I can remember, I do like your opinions, pretty much all the time.

I was asked a leading question really, Mac had a 53% win rate and I do think over the two seasons he did enough to have another crack. If I'd have said yes he should have been fired, it would have turned straight back into Clough had 47%.

The same as when I say "us" it get's pulled apart cos I'm not one of you. But when I say you, it gets pulledapart cos I'm not one of you. So on that, the easy answer is to say how can I want a manager fired for winning 53% of his games. Irrespective of the bottle job and irrespective of what I think about how he destroyed the team spirit he was lucky enough to inherit.

I've also stated on a few occasions, that cos of the nature of the collapse, he left the board with no choice. And it's very interesting that you talk about big or key game results.

I hope I'm not being out of order here but I once asked Andy Appleby a question - I've got a lot of time for Andy, I think he's a really good man, I don't know him well but he's always come across to me as honest and straight forward.

When I told him I thought they's made a mistake and why did he fire Nigel just as the squad was shaping up, the reason he gave?

Nigel never won a big game. Maybe that's the single biggest reason they got rid of the Mac.