Is clement up to the job

[ronnieronalde]

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/9970721/derby-1-2-leeds

Maybe someone should tell Woods and the other Leeds lads that it wasn't a bad miss from his header.

I'd say looking at his and their reactions says a lot about the kind of chance it was.

 

[RamNut]

In the interests of balance.......a few things i think he got right.

1. Choosing carson over grant. There were plenty of people who reckoned he should start with grant. In the end grant has made it easy for him by cocking up v pompey. But that seems to have been a good call.

2. Shackell and Keogh. It looked as though he was going to ditch keogh, and with the signing of shackell and pearce it would have been easy to move him along. But despite a few glitches we look much more secure at the back and keogh has been pretty much outstanding so far.

3. Recognising that the diamond was rubbish and re-establishing width with russell and ince.

now please stop tinkering and instead start polishing what we have.

[Alph]

Let's not make out that Rosler is some sort of genius please. 

Whatever way you look at it Derby were a bang average Champ side before Rush brought Mac in. Bang. Average. So he got that right. Why are we still talking about Nigel Clough? I like the bloke but we talk like he's been a massive part of our history. That period of Derby County history couldn't be more average. Couldn't be less interesting. The reason we talk about it is because of who his dad is. Why oh why do I still read his name every day?

And comparing our results this season with the 5 fixtures last season. What's that about? Football doesn't work like that and everybody on here knows that. 

It's a bad start. I've got loads of moans. Why isn't Hendrick on the bench and replaced by something more useful. Like a brick. Why have I got time to go down and get a pie and get back to my seat between the ball leaving Shackell's foot and reaching Keogh who's 4 inch away. Why have we got the best hold up man in the league and we ignore him. What does Dawkins have to do to get a kick when between Weimann and Hendrick they're making Sammon look like a world beater. The formation changing masterplan

And the worst one?

Why the **** do we insist on retreating so deep to defend about 15/20yrds in our half is the first pressure but then on top of that we play this silly contain tactic where nobody puts in a tackle and we try to see the ball off all the time. Tackle ffs!!!! No wonder we're conceding long range efforts

But money spent? How can money being put forward not help? It doesn't have to be spent. Mel Morris didn't hold a gun to someone's head to buy Alex Pearce. Sam Rush? What the hell has he done wrong? Sacked a manager you were all moaning about? After going from top to 8th? Now I was a big Mac fan but I can't argue too strongly for why Mac should have kept his job. I wish he was still here. I wish he was never sacked. But I can see why he was.

We've had a bad start but some folks are turning over every rock looking for an answer. The answer is on the pitch. And there's no disaster out there either. It's just a poor start in terms of results. It's an inconsistent start in terms of performances. And it's a laughable start in terms of panic.

How are Chelsea getting on btw? Who are the undefeated teams in the PL? Have a look at the league tables last season for me.

It's a start. Let's see some solution suggestions then? Sack Rush? Return all the players with receipts, sack Clement and bring in somebody who knows what he's doing like Nigel Clough, Steve McClaren? Not Mourinho though because they're in for a relegation battle themselves

[needles]

Results are *****. They pick up quickly, or someone gets the boot. That's football.

[RamNut]

Results are *****. They pick up quickly, or someone gets the boot. That's football.

if i was him i'd give darren wassall a good boot

the idea of him sitting behind mel and sam rush, constantly leaning forward throughout the match to whisper in their ears would drive me crackers if i was boss.

i'd prob make him dress up as Rammie. 

[ronnieronalde]

Let's not make out that Rosler is some sort of genius please. 

Whatever way you look at it Derby were a bang average Champ side before Rush brought Mac in. Bang. Average. So he got that right. Why are we still talking about Nigel Clough? I like the bloke but we talk like he's been a massive part of our history. That period of Derby County history couldn't be more average. Couldn't be less interesting. The reason we talk about it is because of who his dad is. Why oh why do I still read his name every day?

And comparing our results this season with the 5 fixtures last season. What's that about? Football doesn't work like that and everybody on here knows that. 

It's a bad start. I've got loads of moans. Why isn't Hendrick on the bench and replaced by something more useful. Like a brick. Why have I got time to go down and get a pie and get back to my seat between the ball leaving Shackell's foot and reaching Keogh who's 4 inch away. Why have we got the best hold up man in the league and we ignore him. What does Dawkins have to do to get a kick when between Weimann and Hendrick they're making Sammon look like a world beater. The formation changing masterplan

And the worst one?

Why the **** do we insist on retreating so deep to defend about 15/20yrds in our half is the first pressure but then on top of that we play this silly contain tactic where nobody puts in a tackle and we try to see the ball off all the time. Tackle ffs!!!! No wonder we're conceding long range efforts

But money spent? How can money being put forward not help? It doesn't have to be spent. Mel Morris didn't hold a gun to someone's head to buy Alex Pearce. Sam Rush? What the hell has he done wrong? Sacked a manager you were all moaning about? After going from top to 8th? Now I was a big Mac fan but I can't argue too strongly for why Mac should have kept his job. I wish he was still here. I wish he was never sacked. But I can see why he was.

We've had a bad start but some folks are turning over every rock looking for an answer. The answer is on the pitch. And there's no disaster out there either. It's just a poor start in terms of results. It's an inconsistent start in terms of performances. And it's a laughable start in terms of panic.

How are Chelsea getting on btw? Who are the undefeated teams in the PL? Have a look at the league tables last season for me.

It's a start. Let's see some solution suggestions then? Sack Rush? Return all the players with receipts, sack Clement and bring in somebody who knows what he's doing like Nigel Clough, Steve McClaren? Not Mourinho though because they're in for a relegation battle themselves

Alpha, they're YOUR concerns mate and you can choose whether you want to post them on here or not and no-one's really entitled to tell you you're moaning or even not to moan.

Your concerns are slightly different to my concerns but surely they don't weigh anymore when it comes to posting them?

Not sure Roslers being labelled a genius, if he was he'd work out tactics to beat every team in the League, you can't really argue though, that he's found a formula that gets results against us.

You can say it's a bad start, but others can't or shouldn't? Or if they do, they should do it in a different way?

You can be angry with Hendrick, Weimann but someone else can't be angry with Clement?

Comparing our start with Chelsea's or even Jose's start with Paul's, but then others shouldn't compare the 5 games this season with the same 5 games last cos everyone know's football doesn't work like that.

I can guarantee you if Paul had won multiple league titles and champions leagues and cups then he would rightly be untouchable and not just after 5 games but arguably even after two or three indifferent seasons. Jose has won everything there is to win, Paul still hasn't managed a team to more than one goal or more than one point. the difference is huge. Jose has proven that he's got too much about him to let his club struggle. Paul hasn't got that comfort, it's not his fault it's his first job but he hasn't got a track record to fall back on in tough times.

You can point out that you didn't really want Mac sacked but that you understand why, but others can't point out that they have concerns about the new fella cos it's not fair?

How many people are complaining about the money being put forward? I don't see too many, there are a couple who question whether it's been spent wisely and by the nature of that. question who is spending it, who is responsible? No-one?

I think sometimes people spend more time moaning about other people moaning, when really all that's happening is people are writing down what they're thinking. You've just done that as well.

Are you moaning with that post above, you say you're not a moaner but then have gone on to list 4 or 5 points that others have mentioned only to be labelled moaners.

Come on Pal, most of your posts over the last couple of weeks have been telling others not to moan.

We might as well shut this place down and come back after 20 odd games and see where things are then?

As long as it doesn't get personal or insulting, people have to have the right to post what they're thinking.

What if they're convinced they are right? You want them to wait until every one is else is convinced before they can say anything?

Someone always has to be first to be right and that's from both sides. there will  be someone on here who is convinced Paul is going on to greatness. Should he/she be quiet as well cos it's too early to praise? of course not, they should be allowed and even encouraged to stand behind their beliefs but also accept that if they're wrong and they've been controversial, then they'll likely be reminded of that further down the line.

No panic. no moaning just in the main discussion about football.

[ramesses]

.....

Whatever way you look at it Derby were a bang average Champ side before Rush brought Mac in. Bang. Average. So he got that right. Why are we still talking about Nigel Clough? I like the bloke but we talk like he's been a massive part of our history. That period of Derby County history couldn't be more average. Couldn't be less interesting. The reason we talk about it is because of who his dad is. Why oh why do I still read his name every day?

........

Part of the reason you still read his name every day is that those who didn’t rate Nigel as a manager continue to bring him up in their posts. For example, you, quite independently, often refer to Nigel Clough. Most of the time to compare him negatively with someone or something you think is better.

[neil62uk]

on par with the GREAT ONES PROMOTION SEASON 68.69

 "   "                Jim smiths first season  95/96

"   "                piosoned dwarves  first season   06/07

 

no where near as good as Nigel Cloughs,  2011/12  season    ;-)

no team in history as been promoted in august  from championship to premiership   ...

[Ninos]

With butterfield coming in PC needs to get this team running smoothly and fast. No more excuses, and no more changing lineups and formations every game, put Christie and Fozzy (most of our opponents goals are coming from the oppositions left side) in as flair wing backs give the armband to shacks where it belongs and for gods sake give Weimann a run in the team if you can. Baird should be a utlility sub not a starter. Bent couldn't finish v Birmingham but he actually showed effort then next game you drop him. player morale ? Find the players you believe in - and it will prob be Bryson butterfield and Thorne up the middle now - and stick with them! Use the u21 studs - Lowe Hanson Calero etc - as your injury backups. And if you don't want to ever play a player - Pearce dawks Warnock bucko - then let's move them on at a good price. Most of all lets attack every team and go for a W every game!  PC has made mistakes now he needs the courage to fix them quickly. I believe he can do it. It's early.

[Alph]

Part of the reason you still read his name every day is that those who didn’t rate Nigel as a manager continue to bring him up in their posts. For example, you, quite independently, often refer to Nigel Clough. Most of the time to compare him negatively with someone or something you think is better.

I liked Nigel and never wanted him sacked either. But 3 years later I don't mention him until others do. 

[Alph]

Alpha, they're YOUR concerns mate and you can choose whether you want to post them on here or not and no-one's really entitled to tell you you're moaning or even not to moan.

Your concerns are slightly different to my concerns but surely they don't weigh anymore when it comes to posting them?

Not sure Roslers being labelled a genius, if he was he'd work out tactics to beat every team in the League, you can't really argue though, that he's found a formula that gets results against us.

You can say it's a bad start, but others can't or shouldn't? Or if they do, they should do it in a different way?

You can be angry with Hendrick, Weimann but someone else can't be angry with Clement?

Comparing our start with Chelsea's or even Jose's start with Paul's, but then others shouldn't compare the 5 games this season with the same 5 games last cos everyone know's football doesn't work like that.

I can guarantee you if Paul had won multiple league titles and champions leagues and cups then he would rightly be untouchable and not just after 5 games but arguably even after two or three indifferent seasons. Jose has won everything there is to win, Paul still hasn't managed a team to more than one goal or more than one point. the difference is huge. Jose has proven that he's got too much about him to let his club struggle. Paul hasn't got that comfort, it's not his fault it's his first job but he hasn't got a track record to fall back on in tough times.

You can point out that you didn't really want Mac sacked but that you understand why, but others can't point out that they have concerns about the new fella cos it's not fair?

How many people are complaining about the money being put forward? I don't see too many, there are a couple who question whether it's been spent wisely and by the nature of that. question who is spending it, who is responsible? No-one?

I think sometimes people spend more time moaning about other people moaning, when really all that's happening is people are writing down what they're thinking. You've just done that as well.

Are you moaning with that post above, you say you're not a moaner but then have gone on to list 4 or 5 points that others have mentioned only to be labelled moaners.

Come on Pal, most of your posts over the last couple of weeks have been telling others not to moan.

We might as well shut this place down and come back after 20 odd games and see where things are then?

As long as it doesn't get personal or insulting, people have to have the right to post what they're thinking.

What if they're convinced they are right? You want them to wait until every one is else is convinced before they can say anything?

Someone always has to be first to be right and that's from both sides. there will  be someone on here who is convinced Paul is going on to greatness. Should he/she be quiet as well cos it's too early to praise? of course not, they should be allowed and even encouraged to stand behind their beliefs but also accept that if they're wrong and they've been controversial, then they'll likely be reminded of that further down the line.

No panic. no moaning just in the main discussion about football. 

Fair enough. I'm just frustrated like you.

But I really don't see how we're getting Nigel and Sam Rush brought into this.

Off the back of 4/5 years of losing more than we won, we went to Wembley and then spent 6 months battling for top spot. Crowds came back and we started to go away believing we could win. The football improved, the goals scored improved and the goals conceded improved. Everything improved off the back of Sam Rush's decision. Not a decision I agree with at the time because of the uninspiring list of managers out there. But he got it right. We improved in every department. 

You attack that by saying "even if it cost north of £20m". Again that seems like a snipe. He's backing a manager and it's not him investing anyway. What has he done wrong so far? Bring in a manager that improves us and then that manager has been backed? That makes Nigel Clough history. The instant drastic improvement shows that Nigel built a good team but was then holding them back. Don't know why 3 years later he's popping up 3 times a week in threads. I don't understand? Billy Davies doesn't?  John Gregory? 

You also said this 

"Quick, somebody get me Sam on the phone, he was a bit too hasty in 2013. He took 9 games to decide."

He didn't mate. Nigel had a long time. 

I've not said nobody can show concerns. I've not hammered anyone for slating performances or tactics or anything. I'm frustrated that a few people are drawing lines in the ground 5 games in. You've got one guy saying we can't compete with Bolton and Charlton. Huh? Another suggestion that Clement didn't answer a question right in an interview. You yourself were on his case about a name wrong on a team sheet. I mean if you think that is bad then what would you say about me if I told you would have sent £1,000 worth of stock to the wrong side of the country if somebody hadn't spotted I'd labeled something wrong. 

Just over a few different threads by a few different people there's everyone under attack. From the investment to the CEO to the manager to the scouts and of course the classic accusation that players aren't interested because they lost. 

It all stinks of knee jerk and settling old scores. Among it you have posts about "I'm worried about this.." and "We need more of that.." and "he seems like a waste of money..." That is what we all joined the forum for. 

But some people are like "Clement is out his depth, Derby are cack, relegation battle, never win again..." You know, proper summarisation based on 6 matches out of at least 48. 6 in at least 48. 

I'm not saying leave it 48. But it's really early. So early that Leicester are unbeaten in the PL. Chelsea have shipped 9 goals in 4 games. Stoke are in the relegation zone. Later than this time last year Forest were at the top somewhere and Southampton were top 4? 

Some teams grow into a season. Some burst in and limp out. Some never get going and stumble along from day 1. But we don't know who is who. People are choosing to ignore the positives too and they focus solely on results. We could have won that Bolton game with Ince at the end and people would be happy and making excuses for a poor performance. Guarantee if we play like that every game we won't win anything. But in other games there's been positives and the Leeds result has really smeared all that. But they were there. It's still early. 

You're right it isn't my place to shoot down opinions. It's the damning of things that draws my rants. The condemning. Because we both know that it's not too far fetched for us to suddenly start raking points in as we get going. I'm not saying it's highly likely, I'm just saying let's get a bit more of the picture before we guess what it is. 

It's like Catchphrase when on 1 square is removed. 

But for the breaking down performances and stuff I enjoy reading it. I just don't know where it comes down to Rush or Nigel. I don't see how they're getting mentioned. Clement was backed. He has the team. It's in his lap now. 

[Smyth_18]

It has just hit me like a train that there is something drastically wrong at DCFC.

I want to know what is motivating our players, or what is demotivating them.

Why do we only wake up and look like we might go and score once we go behind? Not one player looks like changing this recent tradition. Very, very concerned and a signing or 2 will not change this.

[Mostyn6]

Really?

So there's no way of judging/comparing a team or a managers progress or performance until the end of the season?

Quick, somebody get me Sam on the phone, he was a bit too hasty in 2013. He took 9 games to decide.

I might be wrong Rynny  but I reckon every single manager and chairman in the league will look at the result they got versus a team last season and compare it to this, every single manager or chariman in the league will look at the fixtures in blocks and try to plan work out where their points are coming from, hell we even do that in here with our perdicitons for the month threads.

Every single manager, chairman (and fan I thought) in the league will set themselves and the team targets from those same blocks of games.

Surely you've got to agree that 4 points from those 5 fixtures is nowhere near the targets they'll have set themselves. 

Looking at the next block of fixtures and comparing it to last season, we took 11 points from the 5 games after the break.

3 wins and 2 draws.

If PC gets a similar return from his next 5, I promise you I'll shut up and not mention comparisons again.

That's 11 points from Preston, Reading and MK Dons away from home and Burnley and Brentford at home.

 

Thankfully Ronnie, our days of jousting over Nigel Clough are long gone, but I feel the need to point something out, as you have referred to this bit (in bold) a few times over recent days.

In my mind, there is no way the decision was made off the back of 9 games. IN fact, I would suggest that was only a minor factor, and the defeat by Forest just sealed, as you have suggested, that the decision was as good as already made.

To say Nigel was judged after 9 games AND to also imply that the decision was already taken and they were waiting for McClaren's contract to end (which you have previously), is a contradiction. I will say that to then compare Rush's judgements by manager over 9 games isn't really fair either, as Nigel was sacked 'cos of those 9 games alone.

[cloughandtaylor]

How have tactically got it wrong again? When else have we got it wrong? You say we haven't competed against Bolton Leeds and Charlton, so you must be ecstatic to get 2 draws from them? Or do you mean we should have hammered those amd not let them compete with us? Have a look what compete means.

Have we? We have gone out all guns blazing against Boro and got hit by a sucker punch, so he has tried to keep hold of the ball, try and dictate the game, it hasn't clicked yet but for a few poor refereeing decisions, unlucky deflections in our box and the luck of the bounce in the other area not quite going for us, we would have had at least 2 wins and none of this would even be happening.

The of every match so far has been the same negative approach at kick off with Bolton, Charlton, Boro, Brum and again Leeds [let us also not forget Pompey]-

I didn't say we should have hammered them, mainly that we should have beaten most, come on the squad we have is far better than the teams mentioned above, as I keep saying its not just 4pts. - With a new coach I would expect us to get better each game but the performances have been poor - we seem to start each game exactly the same  - poor, negative, lacking ideas, it takes either a goal against us or HT before we start to play.

All guns blazing against Boro, what game were you watching! -they came to nick a point possibly 3, we couldn't break them down - we had lots of possession, yes but side ways passing at the back as Boro just let us do!

I keep hearing lots of ifs and buts and excuses - but what really counts is, are we progressing as a team under Clement and are continually getting better?

[rynny]

Really?

So there's no way of judging/comparing a team or a managers progress or performance until the end of the season?

Quick, somebody get me Sam on the phone, he was a bit too hasty in 2013. He took 9 games to decide.

I might be wrong Rynny  but I reckon every single manager and chairman in the league will look at the result they got versus a team last season and compare it to this, every single manager or chariman in the league will look at the fixtures in blocks and try to plan work out where their points are coming from, hell we even do that in here with our perdicitons for the month threads.

Every single manager, chairman (and fan I thought) in the league will set themselves and the team targets from those same blocks of games.

Surely you've got to agree that 4 points from those 5 fixtures is nowhere near the targets they'll have set themselves. 

Looking at the next block of fixtures and comparing it to last season, we took 11 points from the 5 games after the break.

3 wins and 2 draws.

If PC gets a similar return from his next 5, I promise you I'll shut up and not mention comparisons again.

That's 11 points from Preston, Reading and MK Dons away from home and Burnley and Brentford at home.

 

I never said it was the only way. Ok let me rephrase it the fairest way is to compare individual results at the end of the season because how do we know where teams are gonna finish up this early in the season? Are Burnley gonna do a QPR and go up through the play offs or are they gonna implode like Wolves and get relegated again? What about Preston are they gonna copy Southampton and Norwich and go straight up or are they gonna struggle many before them? Is a team gonna jump from finishing outside the relegation zone last season to finish 3rd this like we did a few years back? You cant compare the first 5 teams to this season to last, was it WBA a couple of seasons ago that started with Chelsea Man U Arsenal Liverpool Man City, would have been fair to say that because they acheived x points that Steve Clarke was doing a bad job? I am not comparing the start we had to that, just how it isn't a fair reflection, are any in our first 5 ganes gonna just escape relegation this season like Rotherham? Who knows?

It is sweet that you think that Sam Rush sacked Nigel because of his opening results. Maybe he thought there was a better coach to take us forward, one that isn't going into games to not lose. That is my biggest problem with Nigel, too many times he was cautious, didn't want to lose, especially away. And that is what ultimately cost, rather draw than try to win just encase we lose.

Of course everyone sets targets, but now iant the time to judge those targets and decide if they are accurate, for the reasons stated above.

4 points so far isn't great, but I have readjusted my expectations from the start of the season before a ball is kicked due to what has happened on the pitch. Hughes and Bryson going off made Clement lose not only plan A and B but C D E and F in the first half an hour. So a draw was what I would have been looking for. Boro it didn't expect anything, Brum without 4 cms I was expecting a draw, and if the ref had awarded the penalty, who knows we could have won it. Charlton we conceded a lucky deflected goal, dominated the match but just couldn't score, you get those games. Leeds we played poorly 1st half and started the 2nd brilliantly but when decisions go against you when you are already low on confidence makes you question what you are doing and you lose impetus and that is what happened with us. Another day Hendrick scores, Weimann scores/the ref awards a penalty and sends off the defender and we have a comfortable 3-1 win.

[rynny]

The of every match so far has been the same negative approach at kick off with Bolton, Charlton, Boro, Brum and again Leeds [let us also not forget Pompey]-

I didn't say we should have hammered them, mainly that we should have beaten most, come on the squad we have is far better than the teams mentioned above, as I keep saying its not just 4pts. - With a new coach I would expect us to get better each game but the performances have been poor - we seem to start each game exactly the same  - poor, negative, lacking ideas, it takes either a goal against us or HT before we start to play.

All guns blazing against Boro, what game were you watching! -they came to nick a point possibly 3, we couldn't break them down - we had lots of possession, yes but side ways passing at the back as Boro just let us do!

I keep hearing lots of ifs and buts and excuses - but what really counts is, are we progressing as a team under Clement and are continually getting better?

I stopped reading after you questioned if I watched the Boro game, just go watch the first 10 mins again then come back and talk to me.

[cloughandtaylor]

I stopped reading after you questioned if I watched the Boro game, just go watch the first 10 mins again then come back and talk to me.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head - 10 minutes of a game! - That is 10 mins from 6 games!

I will ask again, are we progressing as a team under Clement are we continually getting better?

[eddie]

It has just hit me like a train that there is something drastically wrong at DCFC.

I want to know what is motivating our players, or what is demotivating them.

Why do we only wake up and look like we might go and score once we go behind? Not one player looks like changing this recent tradition. Very, very concerned and a signing or 2 will not change this.

Crowd just not booing loud enough.

Come on East Stand - you're letting the team down with your silence.

[ladyram]

Well something needs to change, something's wrong and until its fixed, the only way is down. 

I'm not saying get rid of Clement as he needs more time but where has our team gone? Where's the fight? 

Come on team, we need to see improvement - anything to see a glimpse of what we were - quickly please. 

Need to shake off this apparent sluggishness, or our poor form that was lingering at the end of last season. We're better than that.

[Curtains]

Well something needs to change, something's wrong and until its fixed, the only way is down. 

I'm not saying get rid of Clemens as he needs more time but where has our team gone? Where's the fight? 

Come on team, we need to see improvement - anything to see a glimpse of what we were - quickly please. 

What's this lol