The long lasting Nigel Clough debate.

[DRBee]

For me, he was only three tweaks of his own personal management style away from emulating McClaren's success.

1. Go for games. Make earlier substitutions and don't be afraid to throw a striker on.

2. Round pegs in round holes. Sacrificing balance for the big names is a no-no. That Burnley 3-0 game was a key example of this, we were crying out for Eustace.

3. Work on set pieces. We conceded a gross amount of goals from set pieces under him. The season before his last we went on like an 8 game run were we conceded at least once from a set piece. When Reading beat us 3-1 all of their goals came from a set piece. And Leicester, when they beat us.

In fact, I've just had a quick look, had we not conceded from any set pieces under Clough last season we'd have been 7 points better off (ignoring causality).

His tendency to promote from within rather than sign from within was a double-edged sword. When the injuries hit we tended to trough, however it was through this method that Hendrick, O'Brien etcetera.

Attacking wise, we were fine under him. We controlled games and scored goals for fun.

Seemingly though, he hasn't learned from his mistakes here, far too stubborn.

 

What are suggested here as 'tweaks' are much closer to being fundamental limitations of Clough's mentality. Don't think he can easily change these and other managers have the same limitations as well.

[G STAR RAM]

I just wish we could all concentrate on the good things that Nigel and Steve have done/are doing for our club.As there seems to be general agreement on the latter,I'll concentrate on trying to find elements for the former that even the greatest Nigel begrudger might find hard to dispute.Although Will and Jeff may have been here when Nigel landed,he handled the difficult job of bringing through 2 young players pretty well,often standing by them when fans were questioning his inclusion of them in the team.If you then go on to look at elements of the current squad recruited by Nigel,then I'll use just one as an example.Anyone could have signed Chris Martin,but it was Clough who saw his strengths,just as his father had seen similar qualities in John O'Hare.The reason we can't find an understudy for Chris is probably because players of his type are few and far between.I don't think some appreciate just what skill and awareness levels are required to carry out his role.

Devils advocate, is it not the scouts role to find players?

And before my time but often see Peter Taylor credited with finding players.

Find it funny because the scouting setup was another stick regularly used to beat NC with.

[uttoxram75]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Watford game where we made an attacking sub, scored last minute and won 3-2 - Wow! Turning point for Derby County and my optimism.

 

 

That was the turning point for Steve McClaren.

After the game Steve said that when we went 2-2, he turned to Simmo and said we'll hold on to this, Simmo told him to go for it, go for the win, he did, we won.

Steve's instinct was to hold on to what he'd got, he was honest about it and gave Simmo the praise.

 

What i like about Steve is the fact he's changed his naturally cautious approach, listened to Simmo and Eric, realised the talent is there and continued to go for it. THAT'S the sign of a good manager imo.

[Cisse]

The simple facts are that our current success is largely down to the infrastructure that Clough put into place.

 

He steadied a sinking ship.

 

Anyone that cannot see that is, quite frankly, ignorant.

 

 

McClaren is doing well and he would be, and has been the first to admt what a stella job Clough did.

I agree with this. Nigel did a huge favour for the club keeping us alive in Championship having to deal with a massive wage cuts which caused Nigel to take a lot of blame too. He didn't get to us top of the world but made a lot of progress for the club.

Since Nigel gone McClaren has done a wonderful work for us. I'm very happy where we are now and I think others should be also. No reason to blame Nigel anymore.

[uttoxram75]

I just wish we could all concentrate on the good things that Nigel and Steve have done/are doing for our club.As there seems to be general agreement on the latter,I'll concentrate on trying to find elements for the former that even the greatest Nigel begrudger might find hard to dispute.Although Will and Jeff may have been here when Nigel landed,he handled the difficult job of bringing through 2 young players pretty well,often standing by them when fans were questioning his inclusion of them in the team.If you then go on to look at elements of the current squad recruited by Nigel,then I'll use just one as an example.Anyone could have signed Chris Martin,but it was Clough who saw his strengths,just as his father had seen similar qualities in John O'Hare.The reason we can't find an understudy for Chris is probably because players of his type are few and far between.I don't think some appreciate just what skill and awareness levels are required to carry out his role.

Glad to see you're keeping a beady eye on us.....

[EssendonRam]

Clough rumoured to take over - I wasn't happy, 100% on his surname, can't argue that

Clough took over - I wasn't happy

Clough's first day in the job - Put my feelings to one side, give the guy a chance

Clough in the job - Season after season I was getting more unhappy with the results, thought we had players that could do much better

Clough sacked - Very happy, nothing against Nigel personally but it was best for Derby County

Tony Pulis linked - Hmmm, not sure

Steve McClaren linked - wtf, seriously?

McClaren took over - I wasn't happy at all

McClaren's Ipswich team talk - Wahey give the guy a chance!

McClaren game after game - I love this man, I want his babies

Today - Never been so positive about Derby since Jim Smith was in charge

Take out from this? Daveo's not happy unless he's having Stevie Mac's babies?

But, seriously, as much as I thought Clough got a raw deal, you can't argue now that we didn't upgrade the manager.

[ramblur]

Devils advocate, is it not the scouts role to find players?

And before my time but often see Peter Taylor credited with finding players.

Find it funny because the scouting setup was another stick regularly used to beat NC with.

I think managers often do their own scouting as well,and I believe Nigel had been seen at various venues during his tenure.In any event,it's the manager who decides if the player's taken on board.If you take your suggestion to its logical conclusion,you'd have to say that any flops were also down to the scouts and not the manager (and you'd also have to apply the same reasoning to the current regime).

 

You'd be quite right in saying that Peter found most of the players.The reason I chose O'Hare is that Clough had him under his wing at the Sunderland Youth set up,so this was probably an exception.

[eddie]

Take out from this? Daveo's not happy unless he's having Stevie Mac's babies?

But, seriously, as much as I thought Clough got a raw deal, you can't argue now that we didn't upgrade the manager.

 

McClaren definitely benefited from the stability Clough constructed - contrast that with the way that he wasn't able to operate effectively when he was at the other end of Brian Clough Way. Of course, the Florist fans are just waiting for the wheels to fall off at Fortress iPro - but McClaren's problem when he was at the tin shed was that their wheels were never on in the first place. Chalk and cheese. Sometimes a manager is just a good fit, and sometimes he isn't.

[nomad]

He steadied the ship because he was given time, he was given time because he had to cut the wage bill.

He stayed longer than others would have because of his name.

Which in my opinion is why he got the job, the owners knew they would buy themselves time with Clough front of house.

True, the bonus was that he'd coached a team to virtual promotion to the non league holy grail on a shoe string budget.

But, I think at this period of his career as a coach had taken our fine lads ( who he'd brought ) as far as he could. I think the owners were frustrated that they knew the players were better than the results over a season inferred.

Clough definitely got a lot more time than other managers would have done and the length of time was largely down to the boards need to stabilise the club as well as his family names association with the club.

But, if he hadn't coached Burton to promotion on a non-existant budget then even his name wouldn't have brought him consideration for the Derby job.

 

[unclej]

He takes after Barbara rather than Brian.

[Gary Teale]

I thought he was average at best. He talked about building from the back yet the defence was never that solid, he didn

[RamNut]

When Nigel was linked with the job I wasn 't too impressed. I regarded him as a red and didn't regard events at Burton as being particularly relevant to us. i also thought he lacked ambition as a manager. However we were a mess. We were a mess before billy davies arrived. When he took over we didn't even possess a left back or a centre forward.

Billy did an incredible job in that first season, even though the individual players signed were far from convincing. We self-destructed in the pre-season before the disaster season. and we compounded error upon error by bringing in Adam Pearson and then Paul Jewell. We then shot ourselves in both feet by selling howard and oakley and blowing all the cash on the detested Robbie Savage.

Jewell played the transfer market like a gambler in a casino. Sometimes he won - Commons and Green - but more often he lost - Carroll, Connolly, Stewart, Pereplotkins etc etc. Whoever came in now faced a huge task to ditch virtually the entire squad and rebuild on a shoestring. Nigel - were were assured - knew the non-league and the lower league gems.

Except he didn't seem to.

He brought in Buxton and Pringle who after years of development eventually became successful. He signed Moxey who he later binned, but alarmingly his first statement signing was Lee sausage Croft from Norwich. Where were the non-league gems we were promised?

It was apparent that Nigel wasn't what it said on the tin.

We got rid of players and he was lauded for cutting costs etc. But that was the easy bit.

You could bin virtually the entire squad and there would be few tears shed.

The first season was a non-event. Treading water.

The second pre-season saw the arrival of Brayford, Bailey, and Cywka - young hungry players who promised to be the start of something new.

But also Gareth Roberts? A veteren journeyman defender now preferred to the supposed gem - Moxey. This was Nigel all over - one step forward, one step back. Wouldn't we have been inspired by a new young manager building a new young team. But Savage gets a new contract, and we kick off without a centre forward.

Amazingly the team clicked once Sav solved the centre forward problem by talking Nigel into bringing in the unlikely saviour Shefki Kuqi.

Suddenly we clicked. commons was on fire and Derby played fantastic football. But it was as if Nigel couldn't hack it that Sav found the missing ingredient. Kuqi was dropped for the utterly shiite Luke Moore; Savage was dropped for the away trip to Leicester in favour of Stephen Pearson and the bubble burst. cywka got slaughtered, commons left and during the second half of the season we produced relegation form. He had a winning hand and blew it.

By season 3 he was starting all over again. In came Fielding, Ward, Bryson, Robinson, and the superb Jason Shackell.

Maguire and Martin got the Cywka treatment and were quickly discarded. And then there was Nathan Tyson. Nigel told everyone that this goofy flag-waving cripple was the answer. He wasn't. yet another season without a proper striker.

Season 4 - in come coutts, jacobs and keogh. But incredibly we discard player of the year jason shackell for reasons that remain obscure. And we still import dross likes james o'connor. One step forward, one step back.

Season 5 - this is taking too long - in come martin, forsyth, eustace, russell but we lose john brayford. Maybe if nigel had kept shackell or brayford or both he would still be here. But he didn't and altho we were playing pretty well he overplayed his hand in his confrontation with sam rush, and time had run out.

In the end nigel was too much like the old grumpy mistake-ridden brian, than the young charismatic inspiring Cloughie.but like his father before him, he left a sound foundation for the next man.

[Mafiabob]

When Nigel was linked with the job I wasn 't too impressed. I regarded him as a red and didn't regard events at Burton as being particularly relevant to us. i also thought he lacked ambition as a manager. However we were a mess. We were a mess before billy davies arrived. When he took over we didn't even possess a left back or a centre forward.

Billy did an incredible job in that first season, even though the individual players signed were far from convincing. We self-destructed in the pre-season before the disaster season. and we compounded error upon error by bringing in Adam Pearson and then Paul Jewell. We then shot ourselves in both feet by selling howard and oakley and blowing all the cash on the detested Robbie Savage.

Jewell played the transfer market like a gambler in a casino. Sometimes he won - Commons and Green - but more often he lost - Carroll, Connolly, Stewart, Pereplotkins etc etc. Whoever came in now faced a huge task to ditch virtually the entire squad and rebuild on a shoestring. Nigel - were were assured - knew the non-league and the lower league gems.

Except he didn't seem to.

He brought in Buxton and Pringle who after years of development eventually became successful. He signed Moxey who he later binned, but alarmingly his first statement signing was Lee sausage Croft from Norwich. Where were the non-league gems we were promised?

It was apparent that Nigel wasn't what it said on the tin.

We got rid of players and he was lauded for cutting costs etc. But that was the easy bit.

You could bin virtually the entire squad and there would be few tears shed.

The first season was a non-event. Treading water.

The second pre-season saw the arrival of Brayford, Bailey, and Cywka - young hungry players who promised to be the start of something new.

But also Gareth Roberts? A veteren journeyman defender now preferred to the supposed gem - Moxey. This was Nigel all over - one step forward, one step back. Wouldn't we have been inspired by a new young manager building a new young team. But Savage gets a new contract, and we kick off without a centre forward.

Amazingly the team clicked once Sav solved the centre forward problem by talking Nigel into bringing in the unlikely saviour Shefki Kuqi.

Suddenly we clicked. commons was on fire and Derby played fantastic football. But it was as if Nigel couldn't hack it that Sav found the missing ingredient. Kuqi was dropped for the utterly shiite Luke Moore; Savage was dropped for the away trip to Leicester in favour of Stephen Pearson and the bubble burst. cywka got slaughtered, commons left and during the second half of the season we produced relegation form. He had a winning hand and blew it.

By season 3 he was starting all over again. In came Fielding, Ward, Bryson, Robinson, and the superb Jason Shackell.

Maguire and Martin got the Cywka treatment and were quickly discarded. And then there was Nathan Tyson. Nigel told everyone that this goofy flag-waving cripple was the answer. He wasn't. yet another season without a proper striker.

Season 4 - in come coutts, jacobs and keogh. But incredibly we discard player of the year jason shackell for reasons that remain obscure. And we still import dross likes james o'connor. One step forward, one step back.

Season 5 - this is taking too long - in come martin, forsyth, eustace, russell but we lose john brayford. Maybe if nigel had kept shackell or brayford or both he would still be here. But he didn't and altho we were playing pretty well he overplayed his hand in his confrontation with sam rush, and time had run out.

In the end nigel was too much like the old grumpy mistake-ridden brian, than the young charismatic inspiring Cloughie.but like his father before him, he left a sound foundation for the next man.

Can't fault any of that post....

Really enjoyed reading it too....

[GeneralRam]

When Nigel was linked with the job I wasn 't too impressed. I regarded him as a red and didn't regard events at Burton as being particularly relevant to us. i also thought he lacked ambition as a manager. However we were a mess. We were a mess before billy davies arrived. When he took over we didn't even possess a left back or a centre forward.

Billy did an incredible job in that first season, even though the individual players signed were far from convincing. We self-destructed in the pre-season before the disaster season. and we compounded error upon error by bringing in Adam Pearson and then Paul Jewell. We then shot ourselves in both feet by selling howard and oakley and blowing all the cash on the detested Robbie Savage.

Jewell played the transfer market like a gambler in a casino. Sometimes he won - Commons and Green - but more often he lost - Carroll, Connolly, Stewart, Pereplotkins etc etc. Whoever came in now faced a huge task to ditch virtually the entire squad and rebuild on a shoestring. Nigel - were were assured - knew the non-league and the lower league gems.

Except he didn't seem to.

He brought in Buxton and Pringle who after years of development eventually became successful. He signed Moxey who he later binned, but alarmingly his first statement signing was Lee sausage Croft from Norwich. Where were the non-league gems we were promised?

It was apparent that Nigel wasn't what it said on the tin.

We got rid of players and he was lauded for cutting costs etc. But that was the easy bit.

You could bin virtually the entire squad and there would be few tears shed.

The first season was a non-event. Treading water.

The second pre-season saw the arrival of Brayford, Bailey, and Cywka - young hungry players who promised to be the start of something new.

But also Gareth Roberts? A veteren journeyman defender now preferred to the supposed gem - Moxey. This was Nigel all over - one step forward, one step back. Wouldn't we have been inspired by a new young manager building a new young team. But Savage gets a new contract, and we kick off without a centre forward.

Amazingly the team clicked once Sav solved the centre forward problem by talking Nigel into bringing in the unlikely saviour Shefki Kuqi.

Suddenly we clicked. commons was on fire and Derby played fantastic football. But it was as if Nigel couldn't hack it that Sav found the missing ingredient. Kuqi was dropped for the utterly shiite Luke Moore; Savage was dropped for the away trip to Leicester in favour of Stephen Pearson and the bubble burst. cywka got slaughtered, commons left and during the second half of the season we produced relegation form. He had a winning hand and blew it.

By season 3 he was starting all over again. In came Fielding, Ward, Bryson, Robinson, and the superb Jason Shackell.

Maguire and Martin got the Cywka treatment and were quickly discarded. And then there was Nathan Tyson. Nigel told everyone that this goofy flag-waving cripple was the answer. He wasn't. yet another season without a proper striker.

Season 4 - in come coutts, jacobs and keogh. But incredibly we discard player of the year jason shackell for reasons that remain obscure. And we still import dross likes james o'connor. One step forward, one step back.

Season 5 - this is taking too long - in come martin, forsyth, eustace, russell but we lose john brayford. Maybe if nigel had kept shackell or brayford or both he would still be here. But he didn't and altho we were playing pretty well he overplayed his hand in his confrontation with sam rush, and time had run out.

In the end nigel was too much like the old grumpy mistake-ridden brian, than the young charismatic inspiring Cloughie.but like his father before him, he left a sound foundation for the next man.

 

I agree with a lot you say but Keogh was the replacement for Shackell. We would not have got Keogh if Shackell had stayed. Now at the time I'd have considered Keogh and Shackell to have the same level of ability but Keogh is a few years younger thus making him the better option. I don't blame Nigel for getting rid of Shackell and replacing him with a younger centre half.

[Hinzy9]

Shackel is a far superior player to Keogh, in every department. 3 years younger is only good when there is no loss of quality.

[RamNut]

I agree with a lot you say but Keogh was the replacement for Shackell. We would not have got Keogh if Shackell had stayed. Now at the time I'd have considered Keogh and Shackell to have the same level of ability but Keogh is a few years younger thus making him the better option. I don't blame Nigel for getting rid of Shackell and replacing him with a younger centre half.

I'd say that if he had the driving ambition of the younger Brian then he'd have kept Shackell AND signed Keogh AND kept Brayford to have a real go for promotion. This lack of ambition was ultimately a factor in his demise.

[Hinzy9]

When Nigel was linked with the job I wasn 't too impressed. I regarded him as a red and didn't regard events at Burton as being particularly relevant to us. i also thought he lacked ambition as a manager. However we were a mess. We were a mess before billy davies arrived. When he took over we didn't even possess a left back or a centre forward.

Billy did an incredible job in that first season, even though the individual players signed were far from convincing. We self-destructed in the pre-season before the disaster season. and we compounded error upon error by bringing in Adam Pearson and then Paul Jewell. We then shot ourselves in both feet by selling howard and oakley and blowing all the cash on the detested Robbie Savage.

Jewell played the transfer market like a gambler in a casino. Sometimes he won - Commons and Green - but more often he lost - Carroll, Connolly, Stewart, Pereplotkins etc etc. Whoever came in now faced a huge task to ditch virtually the entire squad and rebuild on a shoestring. Nigel - were were assured - knew the non-league and the lower league gems.

Except he didn't seem to.

He brought in Buxton and Pringle who after years of development eventually became successful. He signed Moxey who he later binned, but alarmingly his first statement signing was Lee sausage Croft from Norwich. Where were the non-league gems we were promised?

It was apparent that Nigel wasn't what it said on the tin.

We got rid of players and he was lauded for cutting costs etc. But that was the easy bit.

You could bin virtually the entire squad and there would be few tears shed.

The first season was a non-event. Treading water.

The second pre-season saw the arrival of Brayford, Bailey, and Cywka - young hungry players who promised to be the start of something new.

But also Gareth Roberts? A veteren journeyman defender now preferred to the supposed gem - Moxey. This was Nigel all over - one step forward, one step back. Wouldn't we have been inspired by a new young manager building a new young team. But Savage gets a new contract, and we kick off without a centre forward.

Amazingly the team clicked once Sav solved the centre forward problem by talking Nigel into bringing in the unlikely saviour Shefki Kuqi.

Suddenly we clicked. commons was on fire and Derby played fantastic football. But it was as if Nigel couldn't hack it that Sav found the missing ingredient. Kuqi was dropped for the utterly shiite Luke Moore; Savage was dropped for the away trip to Leicester in favour of Stephen Pearson and the bubble burst. cywka got slaughtered, commons left and during the second half of the season we produced relegation form. He had a winning hand and blew it.

By season 3 he was starting all over again. In came Fielding, Ward, Bryson, Robinson, and the superb Jason Shackell.

Maguire and Martin got the Cywka treatment and were quickly discarded. And then there was Nathan Tyson. Nigel told everyone that this goofy flag-waving cripple was the answer. He wasn't. yet another season without a proper striker.

Season 4 - in come coutts, jacobs and keogh. But incredibly we discard player of the year jason shackell for reasons that remain obscure. And we still import dross likes james o'connor. One step forward, one step back.

Season 5 - this is taking too long - in come martin, forsyth, eustace, russell but we lose john brayford. Maybe if nigel had kept shackell or brayford or both he would still be here. But he didn't and altho we were playing pretty well he overplayed his hand in his confrontation with sam rush, and time had run out.

In the end nigel was too much like the old grumpy mistake-ridden brian, than the young charismatic inspiring Cloughie.but like his father before him, he left a sound foundation for the next man.

You forgot to mention the sammon signing, I think that played a large part in his demise.

[RamNut]

You forgot to mention the sammon signing, I think that played a large part in his demise.

True.....

[TimRam]

Was it right to sack Dave Mackay ,fourth in the table at the time if I remember correctly.

Finished 4th in his last full season and reached FA Cup semi final. Would have won both had Charlie been fit. We had a poor start to the following season and I think Mackay actually resigned due to the Derby boards rumoured attempt to get Brian Clough and Peter Taylor back.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Shackel is a far superior player to Keogh, in every department. 3 years younger is only good when there is no loss of quality.

I never saw Shackell once carry the ball forward out from the defence. To me he (Shackell) is, as Nigel used to say, a head it and kick it centre half. Keogh is a better footballer Shackell is a better defender.