Asanovic Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Impossible to say whether he's the right man or not until he's got the tools/resources to give it a proper go. He's got a pretty average team in 10th so the signs are good, but who knows. He deserves the chance, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Impossible to say whether he's the right man or not until he's got the tools/resources to give it a proper go. He's got a pretty average team in 10th so the signs are good, but who knows. He deserves the chance, though. no matter how many million times I read it, it still gets me. 'tools/resources'?? Right, the only tools and resources needed are 11 men capable of kicking a ball. In the real world of football, ALL managers have restrictions, ALL managers have to sell if the offer is too good and ALL managers have to deal with injuries and suspensions throughout the season. However, NOT ALL managers get 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to use 90 players in five seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to recruit nearly 60 new players in 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to sign loan players from the Premier League like Clough has, NOT ALL managers would survive perpetually being knocked out of cup competitions by lower league sides managed by managers given lesser "tools/resources"......Bananas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 However, NOT ALL managers get 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to use 90 players in five seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to recruit nearly 60 new players in 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to sign loan players from the Premier League like Clough has, NOT ALL managers would survive perpetually being knocked out of cup competitions by lower league sides managed by managers given lesser "tools/resources"......Bananas! Maybe football would be better off if they were... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 no matter how many million times I read it, it still gets me. 'tools/resources'?? Right, the only tools and resources needed are 11 men capable of kicking a ball. In the real world of football, ALL managers have restrictions, ALL managers have to sell if the offer is too good and ALL managers have to deal with injuries and suspensions throughout the season. However, NOT ALL managers get 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to use 90 players in five seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to recruit nearly 60 new players in 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to sign loan players from the Premier League like Clough has, NOT ALL managers would survive perpetually being knocked out of cup competitions by lower league sides managed by managers given lesser "tools/resources"......Bananas! When you've stopped the dramatic, diva-like sighing, maybe you can realise that not everyone agrees with you. I know a lot do but probably just as many believe he has NOT had resources any where near what other clubs have had. The prem loans we've had have not cost owt....Barry Bannan, Jake Livermore, Tom Carroll etc, were not regular first teamers/experienced players, just kids needing a bit of game time. There is every reason to think, given a bob or two, he would bring quality players to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 There is every reason to think, given a bob or two, he would bring quality players to the club. ALSO who says we even need to give him more money? He's turning the ship pretty slowly but this season has showed that his style of play is starting to come good... If we can translate form into goals away from home then we're going to have a good season next year... I think if we spend the same again this summer (3/4 free's, and maybe 3/4 players at £300k-£500k INCLUDING youth prospects) we'll be in a pretty strong position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 no matter how many million times I read it, it still gets me. 'tools/resources'?? Right, the only tools and resources needed are 11 men capable of kicking a ball. In the real world of football, ALL managers have restrictions, ALL managers have to sell if the offer is too good and ALL managers have to deal with injuries and suspensions throughout the season. However, NOT ALL managers get 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to use 90 players in five seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to recruit nearly 60 new players in 5 seasons, NOT ALL managers are allowed to sign loan players from the Premier League like Clough has, NOT ALL managers would survive perpetually being knocked out of cup competitions by lower league sides managed by managers given lesser "tools/resources"......Bananas! We're back and forth here, so I think we should agree to disagree. You miss my points so spectacularly that it's barely worth having a conversation, particularly with someone who thinks Dean Saunders is of a higher managerial pedigree than Nigel Clough. The last I'll say on this subject is that as a supporter I'd like to place on record my thanks to Nigel Clough for the job he's done so far at Derby - an impossible one, when taking in to account some supporter's (I use that term very loosely) expectations against money available. Not everyone was going to be happy with the way the last four years have gone, but a ship that was slowly sinking has been steadied. It might be boring, but overhauls of football clubs are rarely edge of your seat, Paolo Di Canio stuff. I hope he gets the patience and money he deserves to see the job through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobyWanKenobi Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 no matter how many million times I read it, it still gets me. 'tools/resources'?? Right, the only tools and resources needed are 11 men capable of kicking a ball. In the real world of football, ALL managers have restrictions, ALL managers have to sell if the offer is too good and ALL managers have to deal with injuries and suspensions throughout the season. And the vast majority of those managers finished this season below us last season, and an even larger amount finished behind us this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonRam Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 We're back and forth here, so I think we should agree to disagree. You miss my points so spectacularly that it's barely worth having a conversation, particularly with someone who thinks Dean Saunders is of a higher managerial pedigree than Nigel Clough. The last I'll say on this subject is that as a supporter I'd like to place on record my thanks to Nigel Clough for the job he's done so far at Derby - an impossible one, when taking in to account some supporter's (I use that term very loosely) expectations against money available. Not everyone was going to be happy with the way the last four years have gone, but a ship that was slowly sinking has been steadied. It might be boring, but overhauls of football clubs are rarely edge of your seat, Paolo Di Canio stuff. I hope he gets the patience and money he deserves to see the job through. I tried to like this twice but it unliked it so I liked it again, Needless to say I liked this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 We're back and forth here, so I think we should agree to disagree. You miss my points so spectacularly that it's barely worth having a conversation, particularly with someone who thinks Dean Saunders is of a higher managerial pedigree than Nigel Clough. The last I'll say on this subject is that as a supporter I'd like to place on record my thanks to Nigel Clough for the job he's done so far at Derby - an impossible one, when taking in to account some supporter's (I use that term very loosely) expectations against money available. Not everyone was going to be happy with the way the last four years have gone, but a ship that was slowly sinking has been steadied. It might be boring, but overhauls of football clubs are rarely edge of your seat, Paolo Di Canio stuff. I hope he gets the patience and money he deserves to see the job through. I can see why you thank Nigel Clough for what he has done, I cannot argue that. Over the past few days, I've reflected and was thinking back to the discussion I had about 'achievement', and realised I was harsh. Nigel achieved something magic, he administered the club and stopped it going backwards. He championed the importance of self-suffience and youth development to the clueless and naive owners and pointed out that as a club, Derby County were missing out on the best local youngsters thanks to the policies (or lack thereof) employed by both Davies and Jewell, which was based upon short-termism and instant impact. Nigel, to his credit, has seen the bigger picture and deserves praise and in time, we will see the fruits of his wisdom, vision and undoubted honesty. My fear is that, as my opinions are based purely on what I see on the pitch and what players have told me, that this truly is Clough's limit in the game, he may fluke a promotion (a la Boothroyd, Worthington etc) at some point, but inevitably will fail to take it any further, or even sustain any unexpected success and end up being despised by the majority of fans. Clough should be given a job for life with the club, in charge of all football development, youth scouting and local recruitment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Clough should be given a job for life with the club, in charge of all football development, youth scouting and local recruitment. I can't imagine him wanting to take something like that at his age though... Also, I think it's fair to say that this is the first time we can genuinely say that we have stability at the club for a long while... And there's no proof one way or the other than Nigel can't take us ther next step... Can anyone else provide actual proof that Nigel can't take us on from here? There's no proof he CAN but can anyone actually provide proof that he CAN'T? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So Mostyn, basically you have a different opinion when you stop to think about what you're typing rather than just a knee jerk reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So Mostyn, basically you have a different opinion when you stop to think about what you're typing rather than just a knee jerk reaction. Not quite Sage, I think the tone of that debate was that being in the position (13th at the time I think), was some sort of achievement. I disagreed, and still disagree. Nigel's job was done a year or two ago when he stopped us sinking further. His achievement was then, he's achieved nothing since. My difference is that in that debate, my words were that he'd achieved nothing. When I meant, he's not achieved anything this season or last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Call me cynical but that's now two of the more vocal members who have both come out and said he may get us promotion but ONLY a) if he flukes it or b) because the rest of the teams are so ***** even we've got a chance. Nice to see them covering "I still won't eat humble pie" angles even at this stage of the pre and post season. If he gets us up he's lucky and then we'll hate him anyway after a season or two of premier league dross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Nigel can have the job one more year to keep us in the division until the arrival of Igor on the back of winning the World Cup in Brazil with Croatia, then it's time for him to move over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 pre and post season. I like the idea that we're already in pre-season... Get the team running laps all summer and come back with better stamina than a marathon runner... Nigel's job was done a year or two ago when he stopped us sinking further. His achievement was then, he's achieved nothing since. Somebody pointed out that last season we were 12th, 11 points off the playoffs, and had a goal difference of minus 8... This season we were 10th, 7 points off the playoffs and had a goal difference of plus 3... This has been a weird season by championship standards but for me the goal difference stat is a big deal, since the basis of football is to score more goals than you concede right? I will concede though that last year we finished 24 points clear of relegation, but again, it's been a weird season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Call me cynical but that's now two of the more vocal members who have both come out and said he may get us promotion but ONLY a) if he flukes it or B) because the rest of the teams are so ***** even we've got a chance. Nice to see them covering "I still won't eat humble pie" angles even at this stage of the pre and post season. If he gets us up he's lucky and then we'll hate him anyway after a season or two of premier league dross. I am not a Clough fan. But he deserves a chance with a bit more financial backing. I do think he should have done better with the side this season. If people eating humble pie is your concern then I would be worried. If Derby go up I will be delighted, no point going round saying told you so. Clough has to deliver this coming season, anything less than a real go at the top 6 is unacceptable. I think the signing of Grant suggests time to push on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleEatonRam Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I don't know if Clough is or isn't the man to do it, but my gut feeling says no. I'm just not sure if he's up to it tactically, and in my opinion he may have already found his level. I hope not, and we'll have to see in this next (make or break) season. I've noticed a few people saying that our home form is great and all we need to do is sort out our away form and we'll be fine, but this seems to be said as though our home form is all to do with Clough but our away form isn't. I find this quite confusing really; most people will acknowledge that we play a much more cautious style away than at home, and our overall away record under Nigel has been pretty abject. His tactics away from Pride Park are a problem and don't seem to be very effective. We don't have a different man in charge depending on whether we're home or away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I am not a Clough fan. But he deserves a chance with a bit more financial backing. I do think he should have done better with the side this season. If people eating humble pie is your concern then I would be worried. If Derby go up I will be delighted, no point going round saying told you so. Clough has to deliver this coming season, anything less than a real go at the top 6 is unacceptable. I think the signing of Grant suggests time to push on. This has to be a big season, if it isn't he's gone. No doubt about it. The board or the CEO will move on to someone else. Next season is the tipping point, if we're not within touching distance of the top 6 from the off, then he'll be gone and I'll be back on admitting he fell short and Mostyn will be running around with his shirt over his head telling us he was spot on. People eating humble pie is not my biggest issue, I'd just like for once one of those posters to type they've been getting it wrong for the last 4 years so they're going to step back and wait and see what happens before making their usual wild and totally inaccurate predictions. Personally I'd just like to be able to sometimes stop, take a step back and enjoy the football we're playing and have played. Sometimes stop to take a second to look forward to the new season and get excited about the work we might do in the summer. I'm incredibly frustrated that I don't get the chance to do that very often because EVERYTIME we lose a game there's a clough out thread pops up. Every summer the signings are already written off as not good enough, before we've got them, usually before we've even announced an interest The manager is written of every single week of every single season, if we win it's down to to the other team being poor, if we lose it's down to tactics. I might be wrong but I think I've read from the same handful of posters how we're doomed with him in charge. Since 2009, we were doomed when we appoiinted him, we were doomed in his first full season, we were relegation fodder the season after that. It's starting again this summer already. The goalposts are being moved as I type. Even if we go up we'll only do it out of pure luck. It'll have nowt to do with the progress made so far. It'll probably only be down to the fact that XXX suggested we needed a creative defensive, tough tackling, ball carrying, 20 goal a season midfield general all along but clough was too stupid or wasn't tactically aware enough to spot it. "In another life I'd be a manager, I've been saying for 5 years what we needed to do but the club is run by amateurs from top to bottom" Clough Out. (again) Now instead of getting up off my arse and pursuing my dream and real talent (at least in my own head). I'm going to post a trashy argument on the internet to piss people off and convince myself I know more than the professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Impossible to say whether he's the right man or not until he's got the tools/resources to give it a proper go. He's got a pretty average team in 10th so the signs are good, but who knows. He deserves the chance, though. I agree that it's unfair to judge him entirely, but I'd stop short of suggesting it's impossible to tell. There are some alarm bells which ring about his management style which has nothing to do with his budget. Tactical rigidity, lengthy disappointing spells and a woeful away form may have a link to budget, but not entirely. The are teams like Fulham who do alright despite never getting their away form sorted for any significant length of time, so it's not necessarily the worst thing ever...but equally, you can't expect our away form to be solved by the magic wand of cash, or our lack of reactive substitutions. Our home form and league positions with some average players and a modest budget compared to those around us is the part that should stop everyone from fully doubting Clough. You're not wrong if you think Clough is the man to take us forward, and you're not wrong if you think he's not. You are wrong, however, if you think it's a black-and-white case that's plain for everyone to see. Anyone who is placing their belief 100% on one side of the fence is basing that belief on gut feeling as much as evidence, IMO. My main point is, Clough's Derby County has its shortcomings, not all explained by our budget. That leaves the answer to this question open to debate, without a firm answer until next season - if the money really is there. I completely agree he deserves the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Why do people think he will make us a play off team. We are now getting another keeper, as neither two he signed are good enough. Is he going to get a good striker this time as theo, salmon, Tyson haven't been good enough. Is he going to sort the back 4 and make it solid as in his time so far it's never looked that way even though 4 odd years ago he was building from the back. We can all see he can build a team that will be safe. I know his budget isn't massive but no one has really proved where our budget is in comparison to all the other teams. When he has spent decent money, salmon, barker, keogh, shackell have they really took us on much as a team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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