Views on NC's signings as DCFC manager

[Alph]

I don't understand why the price matters? Surely a good player is one that improves you? Why does it matter how much they cost?

If Sammon has a mare for the rest of the season and doesn't score a single goal again but it's revealed in June that he cost us 85p does that make him a better signing than if its £1.2m?

I thought transfers were to get better players? If you can get them cheap the great. But why is a cheap crap buy an ok thing?

Does anybody want my old knackered peugeot 306? It's cheap? Don't come back to be when the brakes fail though. It was cheap so it was still an ok buy. Congrats, enjoy your new wheelchair.

[needles]

Just a couple of quick 'uns.

Hendrie. Jordan Stewart on big money here not getting a game. Hendrie on big money at Sheff Utd not getting a game.

The swap meant sense to both parties, as both squads got extra cover in positions they were short and lost an unhappy player who wasn't contributing. Massively impressive signing? No. Sensible, good management? Yes.

Pringle. Taken on from Ilkeston Town and given a chance to develop into a professional footballer when Clough and his staff saw something in the lad. Never gave anything but 100% effort, never let us down. Improved but not enough to make it here. We let him go and he's making a career for himself at Rotherham. Sensible signing, not a failure by any means.

Maguire. £400k for a player with £2m skill. Unfortunately he's a cock end who won't listen to his manager and be helped to improve. Mistake? Yes. Stupid signing? No.

Clough's strike rate, even by the harshest of judgements, is good. If you apply a bit of consideration to the context of a signing, it's superb.

[Albert]

Dude I'm not trying to argue he's poor in the transfer market. I called him average in the market. Just because a player is cheap that doesn't mean anything. Martin was a bad signing. Being cheap doesn't excuse that. I don't judge Sammon on his price tag either. I judge him on whether he improves us. All fees could be undisclosed for me. I judge transfer dealings on the ability and impact.

If all his signings are gems (not that you've said that) then why are we finishing mid table every year?

To me a player that 'does a job' is an average transfer. A player that becomes vital is a good transfer. A player that does bugger all is a bad transfer.

Poor signings;

Hendrie

Croft

Martin

Maguire

Good signings;

Barker

Brayford

Shackell

Roberts

Ward

(imo) excluding this seasons because we don't know how they will finally be judged. Everybody else is somewhere between if you take out 'development players' (even though Pringles etc were transfers, if you exclude them then you have to exclude successful development purchases like Bailey)

Every other signing is somewhere between.

How many players has Nigel managed? If he was so special in the market we would of done better than 16th -12th in the years he's been here. If he was so poor we wouldn't of improved at all.

He's just normal. Ordinary. Gems and flops.

I don't think you can say ' oh yeah, he was rubbish but he only cost £££' ...... the point is, he was crap. Same with Shackell, when he's our captain and best CB would anybody of cared whether Keogh was out there costing less? If Henderson was a good player for Liverpool he'd be worth £20m to them. But he isn't so he's a waste of money.

Firstly, Bailey wasn't a development squad player. Pringle cost a nominal (or free, it's hard to find) fee. Bailey on the other hand cost a proper fee and was straight into the action. There is a very clear difference.

Like everything you have to take it in context. If I go to the shops and come home with enough to make Christmas dinner for two for £5 it would be far more impressive than coming home with enough to make Christmas dinner for 10 for £200. Ignoring the restraints is honestly poor on many people's accounts and I don't quite understand the mindset. Look back a few pages, get the list of all Nigel's signings, look up the fees involved and ask yourself "has he wasted much money here?" Think about it, look at it, just think about. Think about the costs that have been cut since Nigel took charge, look at the squad he's build from such a limited budget and realise that of all that, the only solid flops we have are:

Hendrie

Croft

Martin

Maguire

Of which:

Hendrie - Part of an exchange deal

Croft - A true flop, wages and all

Martin - Didn't fit in, didn't cost much, got a fee for him

Maguire - Didn't fit in, got back much of the money in his move to Sheffield Wednesday

That's the poor ones. That's it, the rest get into the realms of "oh, he didn't make enough appearances" or, "it's my opinion, and mumsies says my opinion is worth it's weight in gold" (opinions have by definition zero physical weight), and when I say that I mean on both sides. 8 transfer windows, and 4 definite flops. He's signed the same number of players of the order of a £1 mil, and all have performed well, I can't think of too many managers we've had in recent memory that have managed that, especially over the length of time.

I have never said that Nigel gets the best out of players (though he got the best out of Commons and S Davies), but I have said he's got limited funds to build a team, but he's still improved us. Simply being good on the market isn't going to magically land iMessi 2.0 in our laps (although Hughes is giving it a fair go... ...), so how on Earth is our league position a fair measure all things considered?

[Albert]

I don't understand why the price matters? Surely a good player is one that improves you? Why does it matter how much they cost?

If Sammon has a mare for the rest of the season and doesn't score a single goal again but it's revealed in June that he cost us 85p does that make him a better signing than if its £1.2m?

I thought transfers were to get better players? If you can get them cheap the great. But why is a cheap crap buy an ok thing?

Does anybody want my old knackered peugeot 306? It's cheap? Don't come back to be when the brakes fail though. It was cheap so it was still an ok buy. Congrats, enjoy your new wheelchair.

You can read my previous post for a better explanation, but there's a missed step in logic.

Yes, price doesn't determine the price of a player, but the logic doesn't reverse. Just because price doesn't determine the quality of a player doesn't mean that you can get a good player at any price at will. The reason stupid money flies around in football these days is everyone wants the best, and so the best's price is flying up like mad. To get a bargain, their current management have to miss the talent, or they have to not be worth that much to them.

[Guest]

I already answered you on the past few pages. If you wish to ignore that, fine... That's your choice.

A beer with me? Depends, I tend to talk about whatever has caught my mind at the time. I don't doubt it can be extremely annoying, hasn't stopped people before though (at least that I know). In truth, I wouldn't have I beer with myself.

I read your replies, disagreed with bits, agree with some of it, but didn't debate any further as we have different opinions and it was getting boring on something we never agree on, however you replied to a post I replied to sage, who asked a question about managers, I would suggest you read it again, because it seems as you wish to create an argument/discussion on something that I never debated with you in the first place.

[Albert]

I read your replies, disagreed with bits, agree with some of it, but didn't debate any further as we have different opinions and it was getting boring on something we never agree on, however you replied to a post I replied to sage, who asked a question about managers, I would suggest you read it again, because it seems as you wish to create an argument/discussion on something that I never debated with you in the first place.

Please point out the "argument/discussion" that I seem to "wish to create".

Also, I backed my opinions up with something. What do your's have to show for themselves. An opinion on it's own is worth nothing. What were your's backed by, I don't think the debate you ran from is over yet.

[Guest]

Please point out the "argument/discussion" that I seem to "wish to create".

Also, I backed my opinions up with something. What do your's have to show for themselves. An opinion on it's own is worth nothing. What were your's backed by, I don't think the debate you ran from is over yet.

Yes Albert you are right, you have been right on everything you have said, you are the king of football and I bow down to your superior knowledge, does that mean the debate is over ;-)

[Alph]

Well to save any arguments I'm just gonna have to back out fellas.

I just think he's ordinary in the transfer market. He's done nothing special either way. I think many, many managers could do and now do as much for us and for other clubs.

I think after his initial achievement of getting the wage bill down and bringing in players who are actually playing at the level they're paid for he's just had a large turnover of similar players with maybe slight improvement.

All I want to see is more freedom from the board to see what else he can do. I want them to gamble on/show faith in him. See if his average dealings with slightly below average backing can become good dealings with fairly good backing.

He's had an awful lot of players. There have been bad ones among them imo. Bad ones we brought in.

I just don't think Nigel is some incredible genius in the transfer market. I don't think he has worked miracles. I think he's done his job and now he's a bit stuck.

I think to make us better he'll have to have more to work with. Because he's ordinary. Not poor, just normal. He can't perform miracles. He doesn't uncover gems at every turn. Metgod said "we have a bottom 6 wage budget". So 5 other teams do what we do in this division. I'd love to know who they are.

If I had to place him I would say he's slightly above average. He's spent little to improve slightly. He's self sufficient and has made us a bit better. But not a great deal to suggest he's a transfer wizard. Hit and miss like everybody else. The bigger the budget the better the success like everybody else.

Having said that, he might have had a brilliant summer just gone. It's his credit to give Hughes a chance. Coutts and Jacobs and Keogh look like 3 signings ready to tick the good signings box. Add to that his other good signings and he just might be slowly working that miracle. But for now we are still mid table.

Anyway, I'm done debating. I'm not into getting in Internet arguments etc lol. We all have our opinions. We all support Derby.

Night fellas.

[Albert]

In the spirit of ending this, I'll simply fact check Alpha's post:

I think after his initial achievement of getting the wage bill down and bringing in players who are actually playing at the level they're paid for he's just had a large turnover of similar players with maybe slight improvement.

Claims:

1. We have brought the wage bill down to a point where we don't need it drop any more

- Source?

2. We are paying players "what they are worth" (I assume this means average for players in the division)

-Source?

3. Nigel has had a large turnover of players (I assume this means that he's signed his own squad, then replace those same players, so I'm going with that):

Players Nigel has signed (permanent deals only):

Chris Porter

Lee Croft

Dean Moxey

Jake Buxton

Ben Pringle

Shaun Barker

Saul Deeney

Lee Hendrie

Russell Anderson

John Brayford

James Bailey

David Martin

Gareth Roberts

Tomasz Cywka

Conor Doyle

Ben Davies

Michael Boulding

Frank Fielding

Jamie Ward

Craig Bryson

Jason Shackell

Chris Maguire

Theo Robinson

Nathan Tyson

Adam Legzdins

Tom Naylor

Michael Jacobs

Paul Coutts

Richard Keogh

James O'Connor

Michael Hoganson

Valentin Gojkaj

Conor Sammon

Kieron Freeman

Of these, he's sold or released:

Chris Porter

Dean Moxey

Ben Pringle

Lee Hendrie

Russell Anderson

David Martin

Tomasz Cywka

Michael Boulding

Jason Shackell

Chris Maguire

So that's 34 in, 10 out. For 8 transfer windows that averages 4.25 in and 1.25 out, hardly a huge turnover.

He's had an awful lot of players. There have been bad ones among them imo. Bad ones we brought in.

Claim:

1. Bad players he's brought in:

We've been over this, all things considered we've only got:

Croft

Hendrie

Martin

Maguire

So far... As mentioned above, there's been 34 permanent signings, that makes it only ~12% bad signings. I'd take that any day, especially as the fees were largely gotten back on two. I'd take that any day.

I think he's done his job and now he's a bit stuck.

Claim:

1. He's done his job and now he's [Clough] a bit stuck

Last year was an improvement on the year before, the year before that one as well, and his first half season in charge. Do you have any reason to say "he's a bit stuck", or is this just a throw away line?

I think to make us better he'll have to have more to work with. Because he's ordinary. Not poor, just normal. He can't perform miracles. He doesn't uncover gems at every turn. Metgod said "we have a bottom 6 wage budget". So 5 other teams do what we do in this division. I'd love to know who they are.

Claim:

1. He's [Clough] is ordinary, but we are in the bottom half in terms of wage budget

How is it possible that he is both "ordinary" and getting a team into the top half with a "bottom 6" wage budget, don't these two sub-claims contradict eachother?

[uttoxram75]

Once people take a view on Clough its really difficult to change.

After the first 18 months or so some fans decided he was no good and every setback was used to back that point up.

Others only saw him having to halve the wage bill bringing in players who cost next too nowt or had to be paid by selling others.

No one wants to be wrong so people will remain entrenched until events dictate otherwise.

I'm struggling to understand how anyone on a Derby forum can be "too pro-DCFC" though................ 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' />

[Jourdan]

I think Clough's best signings since he has been here are Brayford, Roberts and Robinson in terms of cost relative to quality, consistency of performance and expectations. Those for me are his good signings, the players who would trigger the least debate in this kind of topic.

Then there is the middle ground. I think there are players who have made promising starts but it is still too early to say - Keogh, Coutts, Jacobs and Sammon. Then a larger group of players who still have plenty to prove - Fielding, Legzdins, Barker, Bryson, Ward, Tyson, Ben Davies, Buxton and O'Connor and all the youngsters.

If I was going to list his bad signings - Porter, Croft, Pringle, Deeney, Hendrie, Anderson and Martin - would be the extent of it.

I think we'll probably have a better idea where those in the middle fall as the season progresses.

[Bris Vegas]

He's been average in the transfer market.. He's made some good signings, plenty of average signings and bad signings..

He hasn't taken the side to the top 10 of the NPC.. So his signings can't be that good..

A few have been sound deals and which we could sell for a profit.. The likes of Brayford, Theo, Bryson and Ward are probably the 3 that stand out.. A few others have given us steady performances and would fetch around the same sort of fee.. And others have turned out bad in which we've made a loss or would make a loss..

Players like Barker cost around $1mill and he's spent the majority of the time on the sidelines.. Even when he's been in the side he's helped out an poor defence and converted it into an average one.. You could have found far better for the $1mill..

I don't see how people can judge some signings as 'great' when all they've done is come in and follow the trend of being an average NPC player.. Surely a great signing is one that improves the team drastically or fetches a bigger profit..

I don't see Arsenal lauding Chamakh as a great signing.. A guy that can 'do a job' on the (relatively in comparison) cheap and be available when asked for.. (This is a reference to Buxton)

You can get the drift of how far we've fallen when the likes of Buxton, Fielding, Barker, Ward are being courted as 'great signings'

I'll tell you who was a great signing... The likes of Benni McCarthy for Blackburn, Michu for Swansea, Valencia for Wigan, Doyle and Long for Reading, Vidic for Utd, Lescott for Everton, Wanchope and Stimac for Derby etc.. Players that came in, improved the team immensely and (in some cases) sold for a big profit..

[curb]

I've thought about it, then I've looked at It, then I've thought about it again, and I came to the conclusion that he's been pretty **** in the transfer market, pretty **** at motivating the players we've got, generally mediocre really. We've still got players on the books that are not playing and never likely to, and that's four years down the line.

[Jayram]

I've thought about it, then I've looked at It, then I've thought about it again, and I came to the conclusion that he's been pretty **** in the transfer market, pretty **** at motivating the players we've got, generally mediocre really. We've still got players on the books that are not playing and never likely to, and that's four years down the line.

There will always be those who think NC is this clubs saviour and that he can do no wrong, including in the transfer market. To me he is Derby's Tim Ward for the 21st century; a decent man with his heart in the right place but a very limited manager hamstrung by a board with no vision for the future and no intention of providing sufficient money for quality players.. The team are mid table fodder with signings that have been on the whole very average. There are few quality players in our ranks and the knowledge that they are not going to be added to in the transfer window makes me despair tbh. The fact that fans are staying away in their droves from PP says everything.

[Alph]

Thank you for fact checking my post.

Do you talk like this in person?

Source?

[BorneoRam]

A few have been sound deals and which we could sell for a profit.. The likes of Brayford, Theo, Bryson and Ward are probably the 3 that stand out..

Spot the deliberate mistake? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

If you are looking at profiting on players as the sole yardstick then from the 1st team I think we would make a (small) profit on both of our keepers, Keogh's value has definitely not gone down and Buckos value must have increased as he has played a number of games at a higher level but I understand there is an argument there.

Brayford is obvious, Roberts no but he was bought without sell-on in mind - Hendrick, Hughes, Ward, Bryson as well as Coutts (whatever your opinion of him we got him cheap and could sell him for more) we would profit on - Theo as well and Sammon we would lose money atm.

Not too bad all in - not brilliant either I grant you but as well as transfers we have definitely got more out of the academy than for a long time - OB and Bennett would also join Hendrick and Hughes as being worth a fee.

I have not included the likes of Freeman and Jacobs as whilst I think they will be profitable (i.e. we could sell for more than we bought) it is really too early to say.

[EastKentRam]

Thank you for fact checking my post.

Do you talk like this in person?

Source?

Claims;

1. Thank you for fact checking my post?

- Do you really mean this? What post? Be more specific.

2. Do you talk like this in person?

- Source?

3. Source?

- He asked you first.

[ramsbottom]

I think Clough's best signings since he has been here are Brayford, Roberts and Robinson in terms of cost relative to quality, consistency of performance and expectations. Those for me are his good signings, the players who would trigger the least debate in this kind of topic.

Then there is the middle ground. I think there are players who have made promising starts but it is still too early to say - Keogh, Coutts, Jacobs and Sammon. Then a larger group of players who still have plenty to prove - Fielding, Legzdins, Barker, Bryson, Ward, Tyson, Ben Davies, Buxton and O'Connor and all the youngsters.

If I was going to list his bad signings - Porter, Croft, Pringle, Deeney, Hendrie, Anderson and Martin - would be the extent of it.

I think we'll probably have a better idea where those in the middle fall as the season progresses.

Within the players highlighted above are two players of the year, out most potent attacking threat and the player with themost assists last year. Clearly something to prove 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

[gcdcfc28]

Take Kenny Jackett for example, works on a similar budget to Clough, doesn't have bucket loads to spend and has to wheel and deal to improve the side on a yearly basis.

How many of the Millwall squad would to take at dcfc in a heartbeat? None are world beaters and are to the standard of Bryson, Hughes and even Sammon. So why can they be joint sixth in the league, conceded less goals- despite not signing a good proven centre half in the mould of Barker/Shackell. And they've scored the same amount without spending millions on a striker, how can they achieve such a feet without no money in the pot and yet we can't despite spending a fair bit over the past three years?

Ive never said fielding, barker, Brayford and Bryson weren't good signing, but there's obviously a weak link in the side if youve only managed to come up with croft, Martin and maguire on your little "bad signing" list. If the rest of the signings are decent then we'd be better prepared than getting beat 4-1 at Leicester and going out to shrewsbury in the cup...

My opinion anyway, can't be arsed to argue for the whole day about who's good and who isn't.

[Duracell]

Take Kenny Jackett for example, works on a similar budget to Clough, doesn't have bucket loads to spend and has to wheel and deal to improve the side on a yearly basis.

How many of the Millwall squad would to take at dcfc in a heartbeat? None are world beaters and are to the standard of Bryson, Hughes and even Sammon. So why can they be joint sixth in the league, conceded less goals- despite not signing a good proven centre half in the mould of Barker/Shackell. And they've scored the same amount without spending millions on a striker, how can they achieve such a feet without no money in the pot and yet we can't despite spending a fair bit over the past three years?

Ive never said fielding, barker, Brayford and Bryson weren't good signing, but there's obviously a weak link in the side if youve only managed to come up with croft, Martin and maguire on your little "bad signing" list. If the rest of the signings are decent then we'd be better prepared than getting beat 4-1 at Leicester and going out to shrewsbury in the cup...

My opinion anyway, can't be arsed to argue for the whole day about who's good and who isn't.

How many times has Jackett, who has been in charge of Milwall longer than Clough here, finished above us?

How many Millwall fans would jump at the chance to sign Brayford, Barker, Keogh, Jacobs and Hughes?

We're very similar clubs budget wise and there's no point getting down to minor details - both us and Milwall have low wage budgets, and that dictates the kind of players you sign far mroe than transfer fees.

Let's see where we are in April, rather than where Milwall are now after a decent run. You seem to be suggesting that Jackett is a better manager at signings...but if he signed a player that didn't work out like Martin and Croft, would you know? How do you know that there isn't a team of flops sitting on the bench?

And I don't take your point about losing to Shrewsbury in the Cup. Arsenal lost to Bradford, United lost to us in the same competition...that's management and tactics more than signings in those games.