Alph

2 hours ago, Rev said:

 

Good find mate. 

I was dubious with it being Australian as their coverage seems like the work of Suella Braverman. Can't say I "enjoyed" it but you know what I mean. It was pretty fair. 

A European country has slipped it's leash. Belgium deputy PM wants sanctions on Israel and to ban products from occupied territories. 

Nothing about banning them from Eurovision. It's not that bad. 

Will America stand for this? They'll be no chocolate in Washington this Christmas. Tell her how it works John 

15 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

No different from us in the UK back in the day taking the piss out of the Nazis from WW2, John Cleese, Freddie Starr just a couple off the top of my head, Even a royal dressing up as one, It gets attention.

Yeah I know you're going to get idiots all over the place coming out. 

That's why I'm not sure why we're talking about them. 

They're a minority. Feck em

1 hour ago, cstand said:

When I posted there was a bias against Israel/Jews I never actually thought people going on a pro Palestine march would be just thick as mince. 
 

 

When I posted Israel was a disgusting Apartheid regime I never actually thought all Israelis were evil. 

*Logic*

41 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

I suspect there's a longer game in play - and very telling that the US yesterday issued a warning to Israel that they counldn't remain as an occupying force after this latest incursion - to which Israel are probably (privately) thinking "who's going to stop us then?" - the West won't kick Israel out and Iran seem happy to be having a proxy war but won't want to get involved in the actual fighting.

 

I'm guessing we'll go down the "temporary" settlements for Palestinians somewhere out of the way while Israel work on stabilizing the region?

Definitely definitely not occupy. That's where it will go. 

Just need as much carnage so that the Palestinians don't come back. 

But they're now dying to starvation and are fighting each other for food. So the "temporary" camps might not be very big

26 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The elephant in the room is Trump. The US has given Israel unstinting support for 40 years which has contributed to this mess. Biden and Blinken are now making clear their view that Israel needs to find a political settlement with the Palestinians. Unfortunately, when the dust settles on all the bodies, Israel will calculate that if they drag their feet long enough, Trump will become president and all pressure on them to seek a long term peace will dissipate. That could lead to WW3

I think Blinken and Biden are absolutely full of s***. They probably didn't expect the world to react as it has thinking everyone would swallow the narrative. But unfortunately for them it comes so close to Ukraine/Russia that there's some blatant hypocrisy. I think it's just lip service. Eventually they'll talk Israel into ceasefire but unfortunately Palestinians will have to go live in Sinai or internment camps while the region undergoes a rebuild. That will be the official line. But the camps will be permanent. Israel will definitely drag their feet. And wait for the next uprising. 

I don't think it matters if it's Republican or Democrat... The foreign policy always seems pretty much the same. Obama at least talked about Palestinians like they were human from what I remember. Trump of course did his best to goad them. 

Is Trump likely to get back in? Jeez. He'll have them levelling Lebanon!

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

It's hard to even comprehend the courage of someone like this. 

 

I wonder if her telling people how desperate the situation is in Gaza will hit home more than Palestinian diplomats and Queen Rania etc. I hope so. European leaders should hear her and then go look in the mirror. Ask if this is what they truly think is right

It's a horrible thought that so many leaders in Europe are just lapdogs. 

Whatever your take on the entire conflict, is there anybody on this forum or anywhere that thinks Israel's attack on Gaza is justified? 

Why are Jews in Israel more sympathetic to Gaza than Sunak and European leaders? 

Why are the people calling for a ceasefire the problem here? The idea that this is destroying Hamas but nobody can explain how it destroys Hamas. 

We're definitely saying that the safety of Israeli's is more important than the safety of Palestinians. An Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one. I guess we don't know by how much yet. 

The people who question the integrity and motives of those demanding ceasefire, such as Nadine Dorres, come out with a straight face and say "but these numbers are released by the Gaza health ministry which is controlled by Hamas." 

Ok Nadine. Let's roll with that. Let's say the numbers have been doubled. Does 2,000 dead children make it right? What about 1,000? 100? Let's say 100 children have died. 100 children have died for how many Hamas militants? The Dunblane Massacre? Remember that? If it had served a more noble goal then would we be ok with that? 

I suppose if these kids are faces on the other side of the world that you don't have to look at then it's easy to say "collateral damage". 

The real thugs are the ones calling for a ceasefire. She's crying more about "From the River To the Sea" than dead kids. 

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

https://fb.watch/obnfrZ_A7e/

 

BlackRock and Vanguard. I've seen somebody on here talk about them before. Might have been you but also I think maybe @Srg. If my memory serves

I mean it just takes us back to what we know anyway. This isn't about destroying Hamas. Any idiot can see that this wouldn't destroy Hamas. But nobody who defends Israel at every turn wants consider what else it's about. 

American Imperialism. Always. The war mongering, arms trading, empire building world police. They admit it. Biden admitted it in 1986. Netenyahu... Props up Hamas, talks about "Peace Corridors" and "nuclear threat to (oil rich) Iran. 

Israel. The American key to the middle east. 

@uttoxram75has posted 3 times in this thread the goldmine Palestinians are blocking.

Which is why if Hamas surrendered tomorrow there would still be Israeli provocation. Another enemy to provoke America would appear. Even if they have to make one up. Again.

Because America needs an 'in'. 

I mean they're not the only player of course. Usually there's Russian influence to oppose them. 

We're all fighting in these b******* ever lasting chess game. They've got to control everything. 

52 minutes ago, Archied said:

Was James shnieder not on ( he usually is ) he is left wing , he is Jewish and speaks passionately about the marching being positive and justified , in fact he has attended them , he calls for ceasefire , is very anti the Israel policy that is happening now and also in the past and stands up for Palestinian rights , 

My feel is most presenters on gb news are not on the left but make no mistake the left and both sides of any issue are always on and good enlightening and challenging arguments are put forward ,

only news I watch now as it’s the only place I get to hear every side of issues 🤷🏻‍♂️

Last I saw of James Schneider was when he wasn't even allowed to speak when Nadine something or other just wanted spout off on a nonsense rant which was one of the most ignorant piece of coverage you'll see on this conflict. He took it like a champ but he clearly was only there to be beat up by arse lickers. 

I only see GB News when I visit my uncle so it's the same show every week. And it's usually something like "Are our borders open to terrorists" and "Housing crisis cripples hard working British people". And then you get people who look like they've never been outside ranting about the collapse of Britain. 

2 hours ago, The Last Post said:

It's as easy as ABC, During the BLM marches, Statues were targeted from our imperialistic history, Hague, Churchill even the Boudica statue, These were covered/protected, There was around 100+ males protecting certain sites, I'm guessing "football lads" who saw protecting what they believed to be "British History" and should be left well alone, Remember the statue that was dumped into a Bristol harbour?

Social media is the driving force for any protest, Social media is a driving force for any gathering, It's amazing what can be done with a mobile phone with an internet connection 👍, I ran the DLF forum years ago before I closed it down, I could get in touch with people the other side of the world with a press of a key.

I was at the last anti Brexit march in London when we played Charlton, We should have gone to the game but stayed on the lash instead, We stayed in a pub around Leicester Square, We ventured out for a bite to eat, At the protest was a multitude of people who had something to say or a placard to display, One man had a placard saying "we're doomed as aliens are landing" or summat like that, It gives people a voice for one reason or another.

The Press are hyping up trouble on Saturday November 11th, It will be like a tinder box according to them, They'll be opposing factions with differing causes, There will be people bent on violence not just in the UK but around Europe too.  

It's been far too peaceful considering the numbers and it makes it hard for them to be "Hamas supporters"

I remember the BLM vandalism. As a history geek the whole tearing down statues seemed stupid to me. 

Like, you pulled down a statue of a man of the times who used slavery to build x and x in Bristol. But he still did it. You've not erased the history. X was still built and funded based on slavery. Shouldn't we give context rather than destroy? Add to our culture instead of deny it? I dunno, I remember that was a controversial topic. 

Another funny thing is apparently in video games there's something about not showing the swastika. That made me giggle. We don't want Nazis being offensive. 

But plenty of messages are going around asking protesters to respect the laws and customs of the countries they're in. Don't play into the hands of people like Braverman. I know though that there will be idiots and racists that see anything like this as a chance to spread their hatred. 

GB News is funny. I visited my uncle last night and he always has it on. It's like a cliché. Hate March! Immigrants!  Free housing for immigrants! NHS crisis due to migration! 2m rapists cross the border every day! 

Bloomin' heck. No wonder my Uncle is a miserable cnut who doesn't go out. He thinks there a Romanian gypsy waiting to kill him and sell his organs.

Cheerful stuff!

There's a lot of effort to make Pro Palestinians protests look like they're coming to get you!! 

One weekend, I'm not sure how many tens of thousands marched but there were a handful of offences and two or three of those were by people opposing protests. 

Apparently there was an article saying thousands of football fans are going to protect the Cenotaph? I've not seen the article but I'd be interested to know how it works

Was the news source lucky enough to be included in the conversation and planning between rival fans? Where did this take place? Is there a hidden part of this forum where some of the Derby lads are chatting with Forest and Leicester fans? 

Just curious like. I'm not saying everything is being done to discourage protests with vague threats/incitement and it's being suggested that the salt of the earth types are saving the day from the "Hate March". 

It must be hard to accept that only a tiny minute percentage of these anti-British Hamas supporters are causing any trouble. Hopefully the protests erupt in violence this weekend, eh? Fingers crossed Suella

26 minutes ago, jono said:

I don’t agree with everything you say but you make good points. Also, to give you a salute you say “that is my belief” so very much better than saying “I am right”

I have huge sympathy for the Palestinians especially when Netinyahoo (spelling 🤪) is so bellicose and to me at least, not very likeable or statesmanlike. Yet on the other hand if you lived in a country surrounded by every neighbour who really would rather you didn’t exist it does provide some background to what makes Israel so fixed in maintaining or even expanding their position. And, like it or not, with or without American help, Isreal has built a functioning prosperous nation that pays more than lip service to democracy. They are a big animal permanently backed in to a corner. Hamas has no interest in coaxing them out it would rather poke them with a sharp stick at the expense of the Palestinian people.

13 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

your points are well made and you're clearly a humanist above all else! Don't worry that someone doesn't get you.

Thanks! 

If I come across like a ranting lunatic it's because I type whatever comes into my head. I'm not like a confrontational person who like overpowers people in a real life debate. It might be just how I come across on here because I get carried away when making my point and don't structure anything if you know what I mean?

2 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

My Son once called me selfish for voting Brexit, I told him that's rubbish...I just look after myself and feck the others 😊 

I'm not sure how to take that. 🤣

I don't know if I did something wrong? Should I be arguing against Islamophobia month? For anti-Semitism month? Did I say something wrong? 

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

It's not a conversation with you though, is it? Or a debate. Your beliefs and opinions on this conflict and its origins are set in stone - I doubt that anyone reading this thread would conclude otherwise - and I've got drying paint that needs watching.

My beliefs are what? 

That if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, if they laid down all weapons that  1)This wouldn't halt Israeli expansion in West Bank. 2) That another resistance would rise in their place because of the condition of Palestinian people

That if Israel respected international law, respected boundaries. Worked with Palestinians. Halted the settlements. Actually stopped and punished settler violence. If they gave Palestinians a reason to reject Hamas then we would find a route towards peace. When the need for a resistance would fade. And Israel being a powerful military nation has the ability to fight Hamas/defend themselves AND work with Palestinians (probably Fatah to create a state) 

It wouldn't be a smooth ride. But it would be the right road. 

That is my belief. Do you have problem with that? 

The final sentence is just unnecessarily rude. 🤣

50 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

"Birth of a Nation" 😁

Whether you agree or disagree with other posters...they have a right to an opinion, Bailing out just gives a poster the satisfaction of scoring the 1st goal.

Myself...I don't reply, They then get confused...did he read it? a Mills bomb explodes in their mind 😁

I just didn't want to talk about anti-Semitism or Islamophobia month. I didn't know Islamophobia month was a thing. I'm an atheist so I think, if I understand the Qur'an, that I'm going to hell? I think you have to believe in a God? Dunno. 

But these big kind of corporate awareness things... I don't pay attention. Black history month? If it helps then good. But I'm not offended by it and I'm not doing whatever I should be doing to support it. None of those things. 

During Islamophobia month I'll be not believing in God and hiding my browsing history from my missus. I'm a sinner. 

It was just to take it down the "do we like Muslims more than Jews?" path. It's not that I'm saying his opinion is right/wrong. I'm saying I don't want to argue with it? Palestinians are Semite. He needs a different thread for that route. 

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

How to defeat the most technologically sophisticated surveillance system in the world - don't use technology. This isn't a proven theory, but it's plausible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

This is why I don't go with the "adding context angle not excuses" angle. 

I'm biased. I'm not biased because I'm Muslim, Arab, antisemetic, anti Israel existence. I'm biased because Palestinian suffering is far greater than Israeli. 

There was a debate once  in Speakers Corner between an ex IDF soldier and Mohammed Hijab. 

He asked about the disproportionate force used etc and do you know what she said?

"That's because we have better weapons, technology and training. If Hamas had those things then Israel would be destroyed. If Israel didn't have the Iron Dome we'd all be dead"

.... She's 100% correct. Is she not? 

Give Israel knives and AK's and give Hamas tanks, jets and tech and what happens? Jews are not above terrorism. That's a fact. Nobody is. Guerilla, militant, terrorism Vs a powerful military.... How's it going to go? 

So my bias isn't in who's better people. Who deserves the land. It's the same reason a book or movie has the good guys suffering. Has a redemption arc. Makes an effort to have you empathise. 

My bias is because the Palestinians are the ones who suffer most. The casualties, the land, the human rights! 

But you trying add context by articles like this and from medialine is no different from me quoting Al-Jazeera or TRT. 

In fact I don't know how reliable some independent investigations into reliable news reporting but medialine is is very low rated for reliability on the first search that came up. The article was vague and made assumptions. Just as that Guardian nonsense. 

But then you want to cut the conversation dead and "leave you to your thread". 

Because I'm confusing context with excuses? What? Because I reject some of the stuff your posting as independent? Am I not allowed to do that? You can do it to the links I've posted from UN, Amnesty, Al Jazeera etc. 

The issue is, Israel have a history of influence over the narrative. And we've seen doctored evidence of that. 40 decapitated babies. Mass rape. We didn't have live ammunition. This video shows Hamas gunman killing Al Jazeera journalist. These are stories broadcast not just by Israel but all across mainstream media. To post things that say "well, it might have happened" is not adding context. It's supporting what, until this point, is not true. 

Like the Holocaust stuff. "Adding context". But it's not a context many many Jews are adding. It's not a context those who oppose Netenyahu are adding. Why are they not adding it. When their grandmother's and grandfather's were murdered? Why are they not searching for context? It's because it's not context. It's justification for what we are seeing. And they don't want to justify it. They are trying to move forward. Not fuel the paranoia and fear that will live with them forever. Nobody forgets the Jewish suffering. But when Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israel, I'm sorry, but to constantly say we have to understand it is not entirely the big issue. Because Palestinians are Semite people. They don't threaten Israel based on their Jewishness?

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

 

(Deleted. No point going down this route. Sorry)

18 minutes ago, Rev said:

There's maybe other reasons why Palestinians don't come out and condemn Hamas. 

Fear being one.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/

 

Yeah also I can believe it. It's not like I've ever suggested Hamas are noble resistance. I said they aren't exactly Robin Hood and his Merry Men. I said they need to be gone. I know they want Israel destroyed entirely and they're back by Iran. All this I've said. So many times. 

But they will not be defeated like this. They just won't. 

Which is why it all lies in understanding what they thrive on. What keeps them in power. How can we take steps to remove that influence. How can we get Palestinians to resist Hamas. 

Or just keep doing the revenge arc back and forth. Which is what we're going to do. There's no chance of peace. Hamas will still exist in 10 years. Innocent people from Sinai to Jordan and Iran to Lebanon will continue to die to IDF and Hamas. Because we have to create good Vs evil. 

@cstandmate, honestly I'm done after the disputed land comment. There's no where to go from this point. 

The gaslighting antisemite accusations. Whatever. I can be antisemitic if you want me to be. Whatever you like. Your problem with Islamophobia month is your problem. Not mine. Write a letter, go on a protest. I'm not bothered at all. They can have Antisemitism month 12 times per year for me. I don't care. Black history month? I don't care. White Supremacy month? I don't care unless I get some vouchers for my white hood collection. 

There's just no debate to be had when it gets to this point. It's like the arguments in Speakers Corner between a Zionist and a Muslim who rejects all of Israel. No point. I don't know why they bother. 

38 minutes ago, cstand said:

I actually lived next door to a Jewish person a few years ago.

On many occasions she told me about the anti Jewish sentiment in Europe and the UK. 
I used to think she was a bit paranoid but blimey since I moved 12 years ago I now fully understand her concerns she was right and I was wrong. 

Just out of interest, what do you think a Pakistani, Indian neighbour would say? 

Let's assumed you bumped into him on the way to the "pxki shop", as it was regularly called. 

I mean I know Arabs/Muslims have a great relationship with Europeans and Brits but let's just imagine for second that community was not fully integrated into our own....

What would an Afghan or Iraqi neighbour say?

5 minutes ago, cstand said:

You clearly don’t understand International law.

Again can you explain why we have Islamophobia awareness month but not Antisemitism awareness month? 
 

 

Because we all hate Jews. Which is why we stuck them in the Middle East after killing them for centuries

I don't know. 

You did me with the disputed land like all land comment 🤣

Go on Vlad, take back that disputed land! Taiwan? Oh you mean disputed China? 

I wish I was your neighbour. I'd move my fence over while you were at work

3 minutes ago, cstand said:

It’s is not occupied land it is disputed land just any other land around the world.

 

Oh my God. 

5 minutes ago, cstand said:

Hammas slaughtered 1,400 women and children deliberately to invoke a robust response by Israel. 
Hammas have sacrificed their own people many who would agree to a two tier state in Israel to win a propaganda war so they can continue their genocide of Jewish people in Israel 

You're getting closer. Now you can unterchange Hamas/Israel, Jewish/Palestinian and you would be 100% correct. 

That's the point. That's why nobody here supports Hamas. But between Hamas and Israel one is a huge military power occupying land illegally and kills a much larger number of innocent people. 

For any step towards peace, Israel has to take it's foot off the throat of Palestine otherwise it will continue to be kicked in the struggle. 

We have to be careful not to weaken Israel to the point they're vulnerable to their neighbours. But the first move is with the occupier. Not the occupied. 

It's like asking Ukraine to stop attacking Russia. Respect the fecking boundaries then. International law. Treaties! 

17 minutes ago, cstand said:

Apparently it’s Islamophobia awareness month in November please @Alpha can you tell me when it’s Anti Semitic awareness month? 

Do you want me to answer? 

Why are there protests in Israel? Why are IDF serving soldiers speaking out against the Apartheid regime? 

It's because they don't blame Palestinians for centuries of Jewish suffering. They mostly blame Europeans. They recognise the illegal occupation of West Bank. Some of them have even served in operations to remove Palestinians in West Bank. They recognise the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing of human beings. And because they want hostages brought home safe. Because they don't want to face Hamas forever. That's why they're calling for a ceasefire and pro active solutions for the innocent Jews and Arabs. 

As are Jews For Justice For Palestinians

What's wrong with these people. Why don't they want Hamas destroyed as Netenyahu is doing? 

Why are they being assaulted by Israeli police? 

(Edited to add the Netenyahu bit as I'm sure all Jews want Hamas destroyed. As should any human being. But it's when and how. Not pretend that this will actually work)