Alph

22 minutes ago, ramit said:

Not a two state solution, a final solution.  All perfectly legal, I am sure.

 

 

That's the "peace corridor" speech. Where he said Iran needs to face a nuclear threat, Palestine doesn't exist and they share a border with the good Muslims. 

21 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

You're someone who clearly can't engage in good faith so I won't bother responding further. 

Gutted. 

5 hours ago, Crewton said:

Perhaps, but I think we have to recognise how their actions have been influenced by the attitudes and behaviour of those same neighbours. Had they always done things by the book, they almost certainly wouldn't exist now.

True. Which is a starting point of a us finding common ground. There always needs to be balance. But there never is. Israel is always playing the victim. Always protected. 

Nobody here is completely blind to Israeli/Jew suffering. 

14 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I actually believe in intervention as a method of helping citizens of those countries free themselves from oppressive tyrannical regimes. I don't believe the US's support for authoritarians is good and I've criticised Obama's policy of backing Sisi's coup over the Muslim Brotherhood and letting Assad gas his own citizens. I believe people in those nations deserve the same freedoms we demand for ourselves, that doesn't mean aligning myself with regimes or groups who are reprehensible. Giving the Palestinians a state with a Hamas led regime, or a regime where Hamas is a significant player is playing with geopolitical dynamite. Anyone who has read or knows anything about the region and the situation knows that. 

I didn't discredit Pappe, I said some historians, even in the 'new historians' field critique him which they do. I linked an article as such. However, I also highlighted that a lot of scholars, including some of my old lecturers, regularly use his materials and rate him. I gave a fair analysis of what I think. I don't buy what Finkelstein says and I've yet to know anyone who I respect on these questions who gives him any serious thought. 

It's not Hitler level for me. Again, your failure to distinguish between genocide with camps all over Europe, adapted killing techniques, dedicated murder squadrons, mass roundups for shooting and gassing and mass enslavement with a conflict in an urban environment of which many of the citizens are very young highlights your inability to separate out and distinguish between different types of actions. You can say what Israel has done is bad (I've written published articles where I've said this) and even illegal in the conduct of war but that doesn't mean it automatically constitutes genocide. I've yet to see a reasonable case be made that what has happened is a genocide according to the legal definitions of the term. 

I do believe Palestinians, like any people, have a right to defend themselves. I don't believe now that a Palestinian state is a viable political option and I do believe we're entering a new stage of the conflict where options will be limited because of the way both sides perceive one another. Of course I want Israel to give ground to Palestinians and I want Palestinains to recognise they won't get everything they want (like custody of Jerusalem) and settle for a bit less in return for an actual state and build from there. But that won't happen any time soon. 
 

Bore off with strawman arguments. Hamas lead state...  

Oh, if it's not experts your respected circles or the language used by Israeli officials when they talk about there being "NO innocent Palestinians" is not genocidal or Hitler level for you then that's enough. End of. Feck the experts that argue differently in Haaretz columns. Until they get the respect of you or your peers then they have no validity. 

These Arabs just won't accept our values. We've bombed them, invaded them, stolen from them... but they just won't accept our democracy. All they have to do is look at Israel and see the black Jews, the Arab citizens etc. They'll see the equal rights. But no. They live in their caves plotting ways to destroy the west when all we ever do is help them export their natural resources. If only they'd look at how we helped Africa. Bloody crying about "land grab". It's only land. Disputed land. And we'll remove that gas for them too. All part of our democracy service. 

Fed up of Amnesty, Human Rights, ICJ, UN etc keep criticising. Antisemitic organisations. They have no LeedsRam verified experts, that's their problem

3 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean the whole mossadegh thing is quite complicated if you read around it in a bit of depth. Potentially would have been a democratic Iran but there is an argument to say it would have turned into another form of arab nationalist dictatorship in the end anyway. 

See, you can see from your post history in this thread and in the Ukraine thread referencing Trump/Afghanistan to get a good idea of what you think is an acceptable treatment of those Arab Muslim nations. Never once have I seen you speak on behalf of them. You'll justify drone strikes in Afghanistan, war in Iraq, you said (ref Israel) "the land grab is a problem"..... 

You discredit Finklestein, Pappe... I'm guessing Haaretz journalists are clueless, Raz Segal and any other expert or opinion you don't like. You say Palestine would probably be a terrorist breeding ground and Iran would probably be... 

Israel is not equal to all its citizens but it's a democracy so therefore it's much better than Jordan and whatever it does you can't possibly condemn. 

Hamas aren't smart at all. 

See, despite my bias I've never wavered from my position on Hamas. I've called them out exactly for what they are. But you managed "land grab".... It's terrorism. It's terrorism on Palestinians. 

We're looking at up to 15,000 dead. Babies dying because theres no power. Lack of evidence and terrible fake propaganda attempts to cover their tracks. Have you been oblivious to the things they actually say in that government? Really? It's Hitler level

I can say Israel has a right to defend itself. When it's actually defending. You could never say that about Palestinians. You could never imagine an Israel so aggressive that a group like Hamas should grow in numbers because Palestinians would rather die on the spot than be displaced. 

You've been outed. Go sit with Genocide Joe and tell him there's $500b pot of gold for the winner. Let's pretend he doesn't know and America aren't the most destabilising country on the globe. 

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Wow. If that's your take then our conversation is done mate.

This is the guy that said something along the lines of a free state of Palestine wouldn't be the utopia many imagine and would give terrorists more room to operate. 

That's what he thinks of Palestinians. 

And it's beautifully ironic that the democratic state of Israel (which isn't so democratic if your not the right type of citizen) is a state that breaches international law, murders Palestinians taking their homes, refuses to sign off on human rights laws/Rome Statute, ignores the International Criminal Court demands, doesn't show up to UN hearings on their military operations, holds Palestinians prisoners without charge....

The Arabs should just stop moaning and accept it's for the best. They're so uncivilised. 

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

That's my take and an expert's take on warfare and its legal limitations yeah. But fair play if you don't want to continue. 

You pick and choose the experts I've noticed. 

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

Most of this isn't really addressing what I said. I don't even think they're that smart, more desperate and bad. I didn't say it gives them a free pass, I merely said in the region they are by a long way the most democratic country.

And I posted a link which explains clearly why their democracy has several flaws in what makes a democracy. 

You don't think Hamas are smart? You think they live in caves shooting AK's at the ceiling shouting "death to the west"

Israel are smart though? Hence some of the most hilariously bad propaganda and blatant genocidal talk to go along with their decision to give up so much military advantage to go into urban combat. 

You said @Comrade 86was confusing a wartime response with whether a state is democratic or not. Is it possible October 7th was a response To the 150 dead Palestinians up to July? Did you know about those? How many children died in Palestine before October 7th? Do you know? 

Stop watching Hollywood films if you actually believe terrorists are just mindless murderers.(unless sponsored by America obvs) Hamas share a lot in common with the very smart and presentable Netenyahu. Amalekite? Sorry I meant, am I right?

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

He's saying he's one of the worst bamfords on the planet. 

At least he's honest.

It's ok. He's in good company.

President Isaac Herzog stated: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true. They could’ve risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime.” 

“We will eliminate everything — they will regret it,” said Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. 

 “our focus is on (creating) damage, not on precision. There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons.”  Moshe Feiglin, a former prominent Likud Knesset member. 

Former Justice Minister Gideon Sa’ar stated that the Gaza Strip “must be smaller at the end of the war … Whoever starts a war against Israel must lose territory.”

Nissim Vaturi, the deputy Knesset speaker, threatened: “Nakba? Expel them all. If the Egyptians care so much for them — they are welcome to have them wrapped in cellophane tied with a green ribbon.”

There's more about Amalek and the benefits of Cholera and typhoid rife in Gaza. 

Obviously Sky News etc has exposed these right wing lunatics in the "Israel-Hamas War" coverage. 

What's Itamar Ben-Gvar saying? 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I just think you're giving what is a shameless violent ruthless cowardly terrorist group way too much credit tbh. Whether you like it or not, Israel is the most democratic state in the region by a pretty long chalk. 

Shameless violently ruthless cowardly terrorist.... you're describing IDF? I have an open invite to West Bank that I've not taken up. You can be my +1 and tell the Palestinians there how brave, courageous and noble the law abiding IDF are. 

I'm suggesting Hamas are smart. Not good. 

Being the most liberal democratic state is not a free pass to do whatever they like to other people. Including the Muslim Arabs in Israel that are not equal. And the African Jews. 

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/israel-is-a-democracy/

12 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I don't think the attack had anything to do with exposing Israel's aggression to the wider world or exposing western hypocrisy. I think, like they were in the 1990's, they were terrified of losing legitimacy as Israel started to strike deals with countries in the region, especially Saudi Arabia. They saw their political space shrinking ever tighter and thought this was an attempt to appear relevant again and give them some oxygen. As you say, they don't give a fig for the lives of Palestinians either. 

Just a happy coincidence then. Lucky Hamas. 

I did say they don't care about Palestinian lives didn't I. Not like Israel. The liberal democratic state and great hope of the middle east

I saw someone say "What have Hamas actually achieved. They're getting bombed and now want to release hostages and talk peace"

I think Hamas would declare this war a win if it ended today. They've achieved everything they set out to do and Israel have achieved nothing. 

Israel made commitments. How do they pull out now? 

Hamas will toy with them. They'll drip feed them hostages. I'd bet money on it. 

Their objective was to expose Israeli crimes and aggression, expose Western hypocrisy and damage Israeli relations with Saudi Arabia and UAE. 

Why would they stop? Because innocent Palestinians are dying? Those are Martyrs. It's about the greater cause. 

Hezbollah and Hamas have never been given such... not support but acceptance(?).... by the world to hurt Israel. They don't need people going to their online merch store for the 2023 edition of "I ❤️ Hamas". They just need the truth about Israel out in the world and some moral ambiguity. 

Neither side can stop yet. 

But while we have Qatar (where Hamas head office is) preaching for peace we also have David Cameron sucking off Netenyahu. 

So the poor poor innocent Palestinians will continue to lose everything. As always. @Comrade 86is spot on. The Palestinians suffering deserves sympathy. Real sympathy. Not empty words from people who encourage this s*** 

47 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think that's stretching things a bit 😅

Undoubtedly, there are potential benefits to them in their approach, but it won't bring a permanent peace any closer IMO.

Yeah I needed a wink emoji there. 🤣

Saudi Arabia will join them soon too. India, China, Saudi Arabia... 

I want their summit to discuss Human Rights to be televised.

It might make a difference if countries actually called for a permanent ceasefire. Didn't abstain from voting and talked with the same language they used when talking about Russia/Ukraine 

Vanessa Feltz did one hell of a job on one of her "guests" and that's a good example of my point. Palestinians and the Arab world are watching. They're not oblivious to politics. It matters what language is used and what countries vote for. 

She went on to cut her guest off when he a) disagreed with her belief that Palestinians don't care what Britain's stance is b) said that nobody in Israel uses genocidal language to which there's overwhelming evidence that they do. But that's besides the point. 

It all matters very much imo. It certainly matters to Russia, China, South Africa, Iran etc who are taking advantage of the PR opportunity. BRICS... The voice of peace, freedom and democracy while The West can't even say "ceasefire". That's their play 

29 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I agree with allot of what you say here, but could you explain why you say Britain is just saving face here? I wasn't aware that Britain was involved in any way in this agreement being reached?

More that Britain was always open about pushing for "pauses" and not "ceasefire". So just in the way that this is what Britain supported. And I imagine Sunak and Co, if they haven't already, will be offering their full backing for this pause. But only the "pause". 

But I didn't mean my comment to be an attack or dig at Britain. I kind of throw British politicians with Americans on this since they just echo everything that comes out of Washington. 

30 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Yes, I agree, this doesn't guarantee that other elements on either side won't commit provocative acts, but I get a sense that Biden is pushing the Israelis harder on the actions of illegal settlers in the West Bank. If so, I hope that causes the IDF to act a bit less like the private army of belligerent settlers and more like peace-keepers. Also, what are the Iranians telling their proxies? Hopefully, it's "only" Hamas and the IDF we have to worry about.

It's interesting that Netanyahu acted against the advice of some of his government 'war council' in agreeing to the truce. It seems the combined effect of the USA and the hostages families perhaps over-ruled the hawks?

I'll give no credit to Biden until I take my last breath. Anything he does for Palestinians now is to protect himself and alleviate the pressure. To appear neutral. Their vetos and refusing to sign off on International laws I think speak for their intentions. I bet the war fund doesn't stop

Iran of course will want peace about as much as the Americans. Or if they do want peace it will be to promote BRICS and it will come with a propaganda campaign to show Russia etc as restoring peace and finding common ground where America and The EU failed. Either way they're in it for themselves as much as America. 

America and Britain are just saving face here. They jumped in with both feet and Hamas played it perfectly. They still are. 

As for Netenyahu... There's enough out there online to show what he thinks of Gaza and Palestinians. He's said the war will continue. Again, just saving face. 

Hamas, well it's just another perfect play. They killed 1,200 Israelis and kidnapped 200. Then managed to get the world talking about Palestinian suffering. There's more moral ambiguity around Hamas than ever. Which is not useful for peace. 

I know I go on a lot about terrible Israeli propaganda but Hamas has been peddling there's out too. But they're actually good at it. We don't want too much legitimacy given to them.

This temporary ceasefire is just a PR stunt to all parties imo. 

But if it saves lives then that's the main thing. On both sides. 

Realistically though, does anyone actually believe this will lead to something bigger? Too many factions. Too much money at stake. And I mean all sides. 

Putin has strapped on his big boy boots to "help" find peace. "BRICS can play key role in Middle East crisis"..... sure. 

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

A bit of good news at last. It looks like Israel and Hamas have agreed a 4 day humanitarian ceasefire, including the release of 50 women and children held hostage in Gaza and 150 Palestinian women and minors held in Israeli prisons, with Israel agreeing to extend the ceasefire by one day for every 10 further hostages released.

It's now up to those with influence to use this pause to convince the belligerents to agree to a longer ceasefire.

 

Agreed. 

It will be a nervous four days though. With the IDF vulnerable in Gaza City and what's been going on in West Bank it's going to be easier to break a ceasefire than to hold it. You would never know which side would break it as they'd both blame each other. 

No such agreements with other groups either being reported so will that fighting continue?

I think something like 93% of Gaza doesn't have access to clean drinking water. Cholera and Typhoid are a bigger threat than bombs now!

Right at the start of this thread the Palestinians were accused of using actors. 

Has there ever been more incompetent and inconsistent propaganda by any country than the current form Israel are in. Some of it is just funny. Like actually distracts you from the insanity and makes you laugh. 

We've got actual actors, videos from 2016, images from Lebanese movies, videos posted and then deleted to reappear "unedited", glaring errors and inconsistency in reports and pictures. 

It's error after error after error. While at the same time senior Israeli officials say the most outrageous things about sending all Palestinians to Egypt and driving them out of Gaza. Like actually saying it out loud. 

Max Hastings was clear about what Netenyahu said when he met him

It's like the world has the biggest elephant in any room in history. How can anyone anywhere look themselves in the mirror and say supporting what Israel are doing in Gaza right now is self defence, self preservation or even about destroying Hamas. It just isn't. It really really isn't and Israel admit it day by day. But still we pretend. 

How much of our media can't even pretend to be impartial now because it will expose Israel. They have to pick small pieces of the events and ignore or reject a huge part of what's being said and what's going on. 

This is so criminal. 2023 that time Britain watched Gaza be slaughtered and couldn't even explain why it was necessary. Couldn't even protect the most vulnerable. Couldn't even keep the poor b******* safe in designated safezones. Can't even say "ceasefire". 

That's was an obvious foul by Maguire, no?

7 hours ago, ramit said:

https://rumble.com/v3wkdcv--who-what-where-when-how-to-prosecute-genocide-whistleblower-craig-mokhiber.html?mref=331eul&mc=atat4

Land of the free. Home of the brave. 

Blurgh 🤢🤮

Good race but too much about it was annoying and infuriating. 

Was it in Vegas?

12 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Alpha we all want a peaceful solution and I think a two state solution where Palestinians  can live freely is exactly what we both want.  I have my own perspective which to be honest is too personal to share on a public forum.

Despite your criticism of America they have  a vital role to play in brokering a peaceful solution.  Netanyahu has to go and of course so have Hamas.

But I sincerely do not believe that such a rabid criticism of Israel is the way to bring about that peace. Or make life for Jews here in the Uk at all bearable. 

Fair enough mate. 

I genuinely hope I haven't caused offence. 

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

So you think you are even handed in your criticism? So on October 7 did you start a thread about the worst anti semitic atrocity since the Holocaust. No? Strange that.   

I didn't start a thread. This was split from the Ukraine thread and my post was a reply in that thread. 

Many years ago in the building trade we had a young Palestinian lad working with us. That's when I first began to take an interest from his stories. My passion grew for it over the years. Especially at what I felt was biased media coverage. My wife works with a Palestinian who's family are in West Bank right now. And my best friend is a Muslim who I've see the racist abuse he's had. This all forms my bias and sympathy. Then it's further reinforced by what I see as an Apartheid regime illegally taking lands through violence and consistently protected by America who's interest in the Middle East is obvious. Israel are their dog. 

A couple of years back I had a Palestinian flag as my avatar. Somebody had a Israeli flag and @GboroRam removed both flags. I threw a wobbler and felt even this is a small example of the voice being supressed. Gboro explained that it's just not the trouble to forum needs. Looking back that's probably fair. 

So I've purposely never started the thread. I briefly touched on it in the Ukraine thread. 

So when October 7th happened I still didn't start a thread. But I'm not one of those racists jumping on the bandwagon. 

I don't see October as such a big event as you. And I know, that sentence in isolation might be pretty disgusting. But to me, Palestinians have been killed in thousands for years. They've faced terrorism. They've been set on fire, shot, beaten, tortured... So that Jews should be killed by Hamas was just another page in this book. More killing of innocent people by one of the vile armed groups. 

Did you think I enjoyed October 7th? That I thought it was deserved? Absolutely not. I promise. I've seen the videos. The beatings, the shoving people into buildings and tossing grenades in. The confusion because Hamas militants seemed to lose their heads when let loose. Lots of arguing amongst themselves. Lots of nasty violence. 

But, the only thing new about this was that it was happening to Jews and that it was all in one day. 

The barbarity? Not new. Never gets easy to watch but not new. So I kind of was looking at the conflict on a wider scale. Which is what many Pro Israelis are doing now while Gaza is put to the sword. I don't think that makes them all racist. 

As for the newer supporters to Palestine. I don't think they're all racists. I think the fact we can go and get news from so many different sources has made more people aware of the situation. That the Ukraine war has been massive for giving people a moral dilemma when it comes to accepting Americas narrative. 

37 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well you just had to double down  didn't you?  

So Braverman made some inflammatory comment calling the marches "hate marches". She was wrong to do that, although there were certainly some hateful people on those marches.   So that activates right wing mobs? Well maybe but I don't think Robinson and his mob need much excuse .

So how about inflammatory posts like yours? Multiplied millions of times over on social media? Don't you think that fuels far left and anti semitic mobs? It certainly does, and is right now , not just on Armistice Day but every frigging day since October 7.

 

Rachel Riley gets vile abuse all of the time. She knows what anti semitism is, she gets first hand experience of it all the time. Nice of you to show understanding for her about that .

You plainly don't understand anti semitism. You don't recognise it, but it's the same as any other racism. We had someone else on this forum, another serial offender criticising another poster who was having a go at Jordan Ibe over his mental health issues. Stupid to have a go at Ibe for that not his fault. But the inference was made that criticising Ibe and dele Alli might be because that person was racist. If you criticise only black people all the time, you might get that impression.. same if you spend all your time criticising Israel, ignoring far worse things done by other countries. That is what Rachel Riley is saying , and she is right. 

The only unarguable crimes have been committed by Hamas, who have deliberately targeted civilians. .to put Israel's response on a par with that is wrong both morally and factually.    

 

 

 

A few points. 

Do I think posts like mine fuel antisemetism? Yes. Because I think racists will piggyback any cause that's aimed at their target. 

9/11. Racists birthday party. But that doesn't mean everybody who supported "war on terror" was motivated by racism. 

Any pro Palestinian supporter, including Jews and Jews For Justice For Palestinians can't allow the argument against Israel to be silenced by cries of antisemetism. Just like the racists mobs that tag along must be condemned and actually irreparable harm to the cause. 

As for "if you only target Israel..." Well I criticise America all the time. ALL the time. I despise American and Russian war games. I despise American Imperialism. I was in the Ukraine thread criticising America to the very point I felt like I was defending Putin! But Russia are just the other side of the coin and the actual invasion was a indefensible. But many of Putin's claims about American Imperialism I felt were valid. 

Are you implying my passion for this conflict is motivated by a hatred of Jews? I could explain why personally I care but I don't see how it's relevant when I'm just some knobber on a football forum. 

As for Hamas are the only criminals. Absolute nonsense. Totally not true. An incredible claim